Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Abingdonboy]

@PARIKRAMA bro, I think your concerns about India's ability to implement the Rafale's diagnostic maintainence practice needn't exist. In fact, turn the question around, what makes you think the IAF couldn't do so? They have tailored their "grease monkeys" to the equipment they have had in the past- mostly rather simple Russian stuff, but as time has gone on they have changed with the times. The level of automation and diagnostics on the C-130J-30s, C-17s, AW-101s, AH-64E, BBJ, CH-47F etc will not be dissimilar to what is found on the Rafale, it will simply be the first time such features come on a fighter for the IAF. The IAF has a dedicated administrative branch charged with all these matters- Maintenance Command and they'll keep an eye on any gaps for sure.

The IN had appreciated the very nature of this and had started more intensive technical training of its officers in recent times (now looking to impart training to MSc levels).

This is at the user's end, as for the production agencies in India, there will simiarly be no issue IF, as @Taygibay has pointed out, Dassualt is working with an entity open to change and open to adopting alien practices. HAL is a long established entity with a vast scope of experience and thus would find it very hard to transform itself or conform to a partner's instructions- that is just the nature of cultural mindsets (it is a common issue found in M&As of firms in the same industry). On the other hand, if Dassualt is the clear senior partner and working with a relatively inexperienced private player (they all are in this feild) then it will be a far smoother process to implement the tried and tested practices from Magnac into a plant in India. Dassualt would be fighting all the way with HAL to get something similar done.

This is just the nature of us flawed creatures.



+ just as an aside, this is a part that is often overlooked and fits perfectly with "skill India" (under the ambit of Make in India)- another flagship policy of Modi's. To think he won't want to take leverage the Rafale sale to further realise that policy is rather naive, is it not?

^ this being aimed at those who are still clinging on to 0 MII element of the Rafale and only 36-54 Rafale's being procured off the shelf.

 

[randomradio]

Now practically this whole concept is all too new for IAF i guess..

It simplifies maintenance. MKI and LCA are already equipped with such systems.

Google HUMS Su-30MKI

I can't post links.

But software is an Indian specialty?

Brahmos Aerospace chief Tamilmani pointed out that software is an Indian specialty. And it has something to do with the huge number of engineers who also learn software on their own even though they are not meant to specialize in the software field.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

What puzzle me in the paper, is that we have a theoretical presentation of automatic inspection systems and diagnostic chapter 6.7.2, which ends with a paragraph of 9 lines in 6.7.2.4 to tell the hopes we have about the F-35 with full contingent, then there is chapter 6.7.3 which is the application of these theories and which is entirely devoted to the Rafale! All this in a NATO document.

That may be primarily bcz F35 systems even though perhaps being advanced or similar is still not completely optimized.. Their coding still sucks and work is still going on.. Secondly the whole aircraft as a system is yet to reach a level of optimized state that the process flow and assessment module can be really understood..

I feel pity for the ground crew.. Knowing this Jet facing problem and half of them still not able to solve owing to too many restrictions, the manual and documentation i believe will keep changing almost like periodicals..

Thus in such a state, a publication in NATO document is far far away. Interestingly not even EF managed to publish like Rafale in this document.

Perhaps it indicates the maturity level the Rafale program has reached and the dominance of French people who had not just build a plane but ensured it meets the high standard of technology it has envisioned for yet it meets the easiest way to maintain & service..

Thanks again bcz this is a treasure document... Its really a whole big data mine..

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

In France Harpagon is also connected to ATAMS which is a military version of AMASIS (used by civilian airline companies)
And ATAMS is connected to SIGMA which is the logistical system support of the Air Force. I have no link to ATAMS because it is a military product but I have a link to AMASIS.
It is certainly easy to find it if you want, the title is:
A.M.A.S.I.S (Aircraft Maintenance And Spares Information System) Modules and functions overview

 

[randomradio]

Software in terms of coding is of course.. What i mean from soft side is like a Business Analyst job here.. Once who looks into the requirements talk with the vendor, make a tailor made customized solution to the requirement..

Analysis is one of the biggest industries for outsourcing in India.

And inflight monitoring systems are extremely old tech.

 

[halloweene]

@halloweene has some health problems.

I have made a small presentation:
New Introductions | Page 30

i confirm. Pic wzs the head engineer of Atlantiqe 2 weapon systems and much more

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Google HUMS Su-30MKI

Thanks got it..
From TRISHUL: HUMS For Su-30MKI

The heart of any health-and-usage monitoring system (HUMS) is a Data Acquisition Unit (DAU), capable of handling hundreds of input signals, supported by powerful processing hardware and software. The HUMS not only has the capability to monitor almost every aircraft system and sub-system, including the avionics sub-systems, it can also act as an engineering data recorder. For the Su-30MKI, AMS was contracted for providing total HUMS solutions, starting with the definition of the IAF’s qualitative requirements, followed by the provision (development and implementation), integration and support phases. AMS is South Africa’s Aerospace Monitoring And Systems (Pty) Ltd

Thanks for the data.. So yes, its pointing to a similar direction

 

[halloweene]

That's unfortunate. Hope he gets well soon.



Arre bhai, I think IDF is under DDOS. Admins are yet to respond.

What's your IDF name?

i'm better thanks. although i may be absent in march

 

[PARIKRAMA]

In France Harpagon is also connected to ATAMS which is a military version of AMASIS (used by civilian airline companies)
And ATAMS is connected to SIGMA which is the logistical system support of the Air Force. I have no link to ATAMS because it is a military product but I have a link to AMASIS.
It is certainly easy to find it if you want, the title is:
A.M.A.S.I.S (Aircraft Maintenance And Spares Information System) Modules and functions overview

Thank you.. I will surely give it a read..

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

In 2008, the MKIs that were in Red Flag had availability rates of over 90%. In two weeks, 8 MKIs had flown 850 hours.

You send 8 SU-30 MKI and 150 people, which is two time what we send in OPEX. But it is a very good performance.

 

[randomradio]

i'm better thanks. although i may be absent in march

You might miss the contract signing then.

 

[Taygibay]

In 2008 at that Red Flag 04. there was another IAF aircraft ... a fighter ...

Tay.

 

[randomradio]

You send 8 SU-30 MKI and 150 people, which is two time what we send in OPEX. But it is a very good performance.

That doesn't mean all 150 are needed at a time. IAF sends two or three times the actual number of people than necessary during exercises. During Red Flag, we also had 2 IL-78 and 1 IL-76 and related crew.

During the last Indradhanush, IAF sent 4 Su-30MKI, but they also sent 15 pilots and 5 WSOs. Similarly multiple teams for maintenance are sent.

Anyway, the MKIs totally flew 140 sorties in 2 weeks. On the way back, the MKIs conducted 4 days of exercises with UAE.

 

[Masterhunter]

I don't like it either, but this is what's planned.

We need to replace 250 Mig-21s, 80 Mi-27s and 8 squadrons of missing capacity by 2027. That's 475 jets minimum. Then there's talk of dumping 60 Jaguars earlier than anticipated. That's not possible with just Rafale and Tejas. IAF wants something that is not as capable as Rafale, but is cheap enough for mass production in India.

Even with 20 Rafales, 16 Mk1A and 20 Gripen a year, we won't reach the magic figure of 475 by 2027. This is not counting attrition. So you can imagine how big the requirement is.

IAF sanctioned strength is 42 sqn by 2025.... I.e. about 756 (18 each sqn)...
By 2027.. IAF will have..
Su 30 .. 312....completed by 2022-23
LCA mk1A ..108...completed by 2025
Mirage2K ...50
MIG29.. 60
Jags. ..63( counted only with DARIN3)
Rafale ..36... Completed by 2022-23
TOTAl... 629...
The above number of planes order is almost confirm.

Shortage... 129 planes...
Way out...
a). 2 sqn of LCA mk 1A.. 36 ( prod of 16/planes already on.. Can be completedby 2027)
b). 2 sqn of Su 30/FGFA...40( can be completed by 2027)
C). 4 sqn of rafale..72 (18 from French line and 54 from MII..if line is established in India)...

Total... 158 planes ..
So by 2027.. We will have 629+148= 777...means 21 planes more than authorised strength..

This is all possible without a second MRCA ..I don't know from where u read or calculated that we can't make enuf jets to fullfill the number loss..
Also the number of shortage of 475 does not exist perse.. As without ordering a new plane ( only with existing orders and present planes) we will have 650 odd planes I.e. 35 sqn by 2025..

This number game is IAF one.. They give hyperinflated problems and numbers and quote numbers unrealistic. All articles we are losing 250 MIG 21 and 80 MIG 27, but no one says how many are we inducting?

What we need is firm order to dassault that we need 250 rafale....come make in India... That will be a best decision.
Or else, we can run in circles and do tender after tender...

 

[randomradio]

IAF sanctioned strength is 42 sqn by 2025.... I.e. about 756 (18 each sqn)...
By 2027.. IAF will have..
Su 30 .. 312....completed by 2022-23
LCA mk1A ..108...completed by 2025
Mirage2K ...50
MIG29.. 60
Jags. ..63( counted only with DARIN3)
Rafale ..36... Completed by 2022-23
TOTAl... 629...
The above number of planes order is almost confirm.

Shortage... 129 planes...
Way out...
a). 2 sqn of LCA mk 1A.. 36 ( prod of 16/planes already on.. Can be completedby 2027)
b). 2 sqn of Su 30/FGFA...40( can be completed by 2027)
C). 4 sqn of rafale..72 (18 from French line and 54 from MII..if line is established in India)...

Total... 158 planes ..
So by 2027.. We will have 629+148= 777...means 21 planes more than authorised strength..

This is all possible without a second MRCA ..I don't know from where u read or calculated that we can't make enuf jets to fullfill the number loss..
Also the number of shortage of 475 does not exist perse.. As without ordering a new plane ( only with existing orders and present planes) we will have 650 odd planes I.e. 35 sqn by 2025..

This number game is IAF one.. They give hyperinflated problems and numbers and quote numbers unrealistic. All articles we are losing 250 MIG 21 and 80 MIG 27, but no one says how many are we inducting?

What we need is firm order to dassault that we need 250 rafale....come make in India... That will be a best decision.
Or else, we can run in circles and do tender after tender...

You have taken a standard number of 18, that's why it comes to that number. What you need to do is count squadrons.

Su-30MKI = 13.5
Mig-29 = 3
M-2000 = 3
Jaguar = 3.5

Total = 23 without new inductions. 485 jets.

New inductions
Su-30MKI = 2
Rafale = 2
LCA Mk1/A = 6

Total = 33. 202 jets.

So at least 33 squadrons are confirmed by media.

It means we still need 9 squadrons of extra aircraft. That's about 180 aircraft.

You believe 180 aircraft can be achieved by 2027. Yes, it is possible, but you did not take into account that IN needs 7 squadrons by 2027. A large chunk of the Indian made Rafales will go to IN also. So 9 squadrons for IAF + 7 squadrons for IN. Totally we need 9+7 = 16 new squadrons by 2027.

After 2027, the IAF will continue inducting new squadrons since they want more than 50 squadrons in reality. The total squadron strength is expected to rise after 2027. So add another 8 squadrons. Obviously, the navy also plans expansion after 2027. So more squadrons for them also.

You haven't considered attrition replacement either. That could easily add 5 jets a year or more. And some of the aircraft to be manufactured in India will be exported also. This is meant to make the line more profitable.

So even the second MMRCA line is too less. We are pressed for time. That's why even the FGFA has been fast tracked.

Even AMCA has been fast tracked. Once the FSED starts, probably this year, the first demonstrator will be built by 2019. First flight is expected then. One more demonstrator and four prototypes out of seven are expected in a span of just three years after 2019. They want to finish flight testing before 2025. The new engine will be integrated before 2021, so that's probably when the first prototype will fly. FGFA will be equally slow, with FOC expected only in 2025. Regardless, we still need the second MMRCA line.

What we need is firm order to dassault that we need 250 rafale....come make in India... Or else, we can run in circles and do tender after tender...

The final numbers have been decided. The only people who know the numbers and the tranches outside Dassault and the Indian govt are Picdel, an ex-Indian Navy pilot called Vstol from IDF, a member called CNL from IDF and myself.

The numbers are part of the MoU that was signed in Jan. Once the first contract for 36 is signed, things will start moving in the Make in India front. The IN needs to complete evaluation for final numbers. MoD has pegged the number at 54 for now for the navy. The offsets will be covered by transferring tech for LCA program and building a production line in India.