Costly upgrades, $850 millions for four Kilo class Submarines

[Blue Marlin]

Good. Now what about the upgrade of 2 Type209s? They too were to get an upgrade. The harpoon have been cleared for sale and an final order is to be given. I hope we get an SUBTICS upgrade to its fire control systems.

@Blue Marlin

Sir Indian Navy doesn't have any other choice than going for this relatively costly upgrade. Buying Type209s is not feasible for 2 reasons.
1. That would be considered an step backwards after induction of Scorpenes and , as the project 75I progresses.
2.They won't come quick enough. Indian Navy is at present at a shortage of submarines.
3. Given we are buying one frigate at 1 billion dollars cost from Russia,this price seem relatively justifiable if we look that these will operate upto next 15 more years.

you need to read all of my posts and that should answer your concerns.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

According to a blog run By Pete Coates, his views are like this

Following Russia’s October 8, 2015 demonstration that it can operate land attack cruise missiles over long distances a Russian upgrade to some of India’s Type 877 (older version) EKM (export model) Kilo submarines is interesting.

India's 9 working Kilos are known as the Sindhughosh class. They have had anti-ship capable Klub (NATO name is "Sizzler") missiles for several years. Now the Klubs on 4 Kilos will be augmented by or replaced by land attack capable Klubs.

The Indian Navy is signing the $771 million contract with Russia to extend the service life of the 4 to 35 years. Thirty years is the international average. The contract is with Russian shipbuilder Zvezdochka and will be sending the first submarine, INS Sindhukesari, for the refit in Severodvinsk Russia, in June 2016. Once INS Sindhukesari is refitted the Indian Navy will decide whether to upgrade the remaining 3 Kilos in India or again in Russia. If in India the 3 Kilos will be refitted with Zvezdochka’s assistance by India’s Reliance Defence and Aerospace company at the Pipavav shipyard in Gujarat.

The Russian Navy has done this 'second refit' to its own Kilo fleet.

ISSUES

1. It is interesting that just 4 Kilos are to be refitted instead of all 9 servicable Kilos. This is noting the 10th INS Sindhurakshak suffered a catastrophic explosion/fire in August 2013 and is probably a write-off. First to be refitted, INS Sindhukesari, is one of the most recent 4 servicable Indian Sindhughosh class Kilos built. If modernity is the criteria then the other three to be upgraded might be INS Sindhukirti then INS Sindhuvijay, then INS Sindhurashtra.

2. It is interesting how the land attack Klub program interplays with other Indian SLCM programs including BrahMos (300 km range) and Nirbhay (1,000 km) programs. Any of these SLCMs could be made nuclear tipped. Nuclear tipped Klubs may be a response to the possibility of nuclear tipped Pakistani SLCMs.

3, If the land attack Klubs were nuclear tipped how would they relate to K-15 (700-1,000 km) shorter range SLBM plans?

4. Under MTCR land attack Klubs would officially be limited to 300 km range but given Russia’s recent 2,000 km range Kalibr demonstration a longer range Klub may be India's more quiet wish.

5. It is unclear with this October 2015 refitting plan cancels or is in addition to a July 2015 Indian Kilo refitting plan.


Submarine Matters: Russia selling land attack Klub Missiles to India, Kilo sub upgrade

Now lemme paste what Prasun K Sengupta said about India's Nirbhay CM..
BUT WHAT IF the Nirbhay was a cloned version of the Novator 3M14E Klub LACM, whose actual range is 1,500km (as demonstrated by Russia when it recently fired them off from the Caspian Sea), but whose restricted range is 290km when officially exported to the Indian Navy? Have you factored in that possibility? What is, just like the BrahMos-1 supersonic multi-role cruise missile, Russia parted with the long-range 3M14E’s design data & allowed the DRDO, HAL etc to back-engineer the LACM’s on-board avionics & propulsion systems & label them as ‘indigenous; products?

My Comment
Both gentleman makes me clearly feel India has progressed well into
1. New Doctrine of Torpedo Launched CMs (No VLS tubes in Kilos) via Russian help
2. Actual range is much longer then whats declared under MTCR
3. The shift shows arming almost all conventional subs via N capabale CMs and that also without the VLS Unit.,. Guess from where we learned this art.. If not Russians then definitely via Israel (Dolphin II Popeye Turbo)
4. LACMs would be an additional capability as present clubs are for Anti Shipping.. What does it tell you.. Some navy talked about A2/AD and IN quietly with GOI got approval to get it done without fanfare in exisiting SSKs only... Oncve this capability is clearly defined, of course it can be used in other subs too (read Scorpene SSKs or our N Sub programs too). We quietly adding dual capabilities without fanfare and without claiming big ticket sub purchases to deter India's vast coastline and A2/AD roles...

 

[kaykay]

^^ Interesting read. No doubt there are more than just 'upgrades'. Klubs are very potent anti ship cruise missiles and upgraded Kilos are very silent too.

 

[Hindustani78]

INS Sindhurakshak, the Indian Kilo class diesel-electric submarine being retrofitted in Russia under Project 08773

INS Sindhurakshak has been upgraded under a direct contract between the Zvezdochka shipyard and the Indian Defence ministry which was signed in June 2010. The upgrade programme is worth $ 80 million and it includes a complete overhaul including the submarine’s hull structures.

Other features of the upgrade will be improved control systems, electronic warfare systems, and an integrated weapon control system. The modernization of INS Sindhurakshak enabled the incorporation of new Russian missile system Club-S with 200-km cruise missile range, Indian sonar USHUS and radio communication systems CCS-MK.

Other features of the upgrade will be improved control systems, electronic warfare systems, and an integrated weapon control system. The modernization of INS Sindhurakshak enabled the incorporation of new Russian missile system Club-S with 200-km cruise missile range, Indian sonar USHUS and radio communication systems CCS-MK.

Once the upgraded INS Sindhurakshak finishes its sea-trials, it will be put to additional tests by the Russians and handed over to the Indian Navy by end-2012. Russia has built ten Kilo class submarines for India and retrofitted four Project 877EKM submarines for Indian Navy. While the service life of these submarines has been extended greatly, they also achieved cruise missile engagement capability.

The submarines can be used for antisubmarine and ant surface warfare besides protecting naval bases, carrying out reconnaissance and patrol missions and guarding coastal and sea lanes.

While INS Sidhurakshak gets overhauled in Russia, the Indian Navy already possesses four upgraded Kilo –class submarines from Russia which include INS Sindhuvir, INS Sindhuratna, INS Sindhughosh, and INS Sindhuvijay. These overhauled Indian submarines are equipped with 3M-54 Club-S (SS-N-27) anti-ship cruise missiles, the Indian-developed USHUS sonar, CCS-MK radio communications system and Porpoise radar.


According to Defence specialists, these new Kilo-class SSKs have been retrofitted with the much needed launch mechanisms to fire the submarine-launched PJ-10 BrahMos missile in the year-end test. While no official confirmation on this issue has been forthcoming, things will get clearer once the sub-launched Brahmos is test fired from one of them.

 

[Ankit Kumar 001]

@Blue Marlin

Umm yes. The arguments do address my concern to a good extent.

Now just place your own thought, about an order , let it be 6 piece of Type209 from Germany , what would be its delivery ,and operational time? Do take into account that India is not willing to directly import submarines but rather build them at home.


And then also take into account the range and endurance of Kilo over a Type 209.

 

[Hindustani78]

850 million for 4 subs thats 212.50 million each, you can buy a brand new type 209 submarine. a type 209 go for about 230 million, but if you negotiate, you can get it for about 200-210 million quiet easily.

22 Jul, 2015, 02.09AM IST

four Indian Navy Kilo class submarines will be given a second midlife upgrade that will increase their service life by 15 years. This refit contract is currently being negotiated between the Navy and the Russian government.

Once signed, the first of the four Kilo class submarines to be upgraded will be sent to Russia, where engineers and workers from Pipavav will be trained by Zvyozdochka. Work on the remaining three will then be carried out in India. While the initial contract would be for around Rs 5,000 crore, Pipavav has announced that the indicative value of work could be around Rs 11,000 crore.

Pipavav has said that the joint venture will place it favourably for undertaking similar work for large submarine forces of similar class deployed by countries like Algeria, Vietnam and Iran, with potential additional revenues of approx Rs 20,000 crore.

 

[Ankit Kumar 001]

22 Jul, 2015, 02.09AM IST

four Indian Navy Kilo class submarines will be given a second midlife upgrade that will increase their service life by 15 years. This refit contract is currently being negotiated between the Navy and the Russian government.

Once signed, the first of the four Kilo class submarines to be upgraded will be sent to Russia, where engineers and workers from Pipavav will be trained by Zvyozdochka. Work on the remaining three will then be carried out in India. While the initial contract would be for around Rs 5,000 crore, Pipavav has announced that the indicative value of work could be around Rs 11,000 crore.

Pipavav has said that the joint venture will place it favourably for undertaking similar work for large submarine forces of similar class deployed by countries like Algeria, Vietnam and Iran, with potential additional revenues of approx Rs 20,000 crore.

Revenue sounds good.

 

[Hindustani78]

Revenue sounds good.

Pipavav is private owned company and this would increase more weapon industrial base inside India.

India is hub of talent.

 

[Blue Marlin]

@Blue Marlin

Umm yes. The arguments do address my concern to a good extent.

Now just place your own thought, about an order , let it be 6 piece of Type209 from Germany , what would be its delivery ,and operational time? Do take into account that India is not willing to directly import submarines but rather build them at home.


And then also take into account the range and endurance of Kilo over a Type 209.

if you read the pots even more carefully i said forget the209 and build more scorpene's. which was because it would mean the advanced manufacturing techniques and tech would be retained ,as compared to completing the 6 sub's and then losing the technique and some of the tech. thats your governments words not mine.but then again it is something i agree on.

 

[Ankit Kumar 001]

Yes the Type209 was a blunder, . But yes more scorpenes are coming , no doubt about it, but again Scorpenes have just started to roll out. Forget about them being commissioned. I think the government is taking into account the submarine armament of Bangladesh and doesn't want to loose out the older ones earlier. Thus the repair process. India has just started , into what it should have done about 15 years ago, so the initial pace is slow.


But other than this, your discussion about the Australian Collins replacement program, why didn't you take the A26 derivative into comparison? I think SAAB has shown signs of taking part into the program. Otherwise , I feel type 216 will be the winner.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Aus got a good now deal talk from Japan in the form of SEA1000

Japan's Government and Industry Held an Industry Briefing on Soryu Submarine at PACIFIC 2015

Seems Japanes Gov and industry folks would tour Australia in and out to promote SEA1000 concept and win politicians, Navy folks and decision makers till the results of Aus sub selection comes out.

On top a new talk for Collins upgrade package.. Both will change the navy capabilities

 

[Ankit Kumar 001]

Which AIP system are the Japanese offering? I think they are still producing the Swedish Sterling's for there Soryus

 

[Omega007]

Which AIP system are the Japanese offering? I think they are still producing the Swedish Sterling's for there Soryus

I guess it's the same as you stated.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Which AIP system are the Japanese offering? I think they are still producing the Swedish Sterling's for there Soryus

I guess it's the same as you stated.

Both of you are correct that older japanese subs including first few soryus did use Strirling AIP but now they are going forward with Lithium Ion battery which they believe can be used at 4knots speed for 30 days submerged for 2900 nautical miles. ( Again quoting from Peter Coates research article on this subject)
This future sub will operate by 2025. AT present Tss-3601 Asahio which was using Striling AIP is now being used to test LIB.

This is a heavy duty Japanese made Lithium-ion Battery (LIB) of the type to be used in an energy storage facility in Chile (Photo courtesy GS Yuasa). GS Yuasa do not advertise LIBs for submarines but they would be in its "Industrial and Military" area.

Some analysis:
The Japanese Government and private industry have been methodically analysing the performance of Lithium-ion Batteries (LIBs) intended for use in submarines for more than a decade. LIBs may be the technology area that Japan has the greatest lead over its French (DCNS) and German (TKMS-HDW) competitors.

It appears that recent performance data on LIBs for submarine are kept very confidential by all 3 countries, on commercial and national security grounds. This makes it very difficult to ascertain whether any of the 3 have superior LIBs.

The US may also be developing LIBs that may be useful for submarine use. It is unknown whether the US Government (and US private industry) would exchange more LIB technical information with the US’s Pacific ally, Japan, or its NATO allies, Germany and France.

Japan's GS Yuasa makes LIBs for a wide variety of heavy industrial and military (including submarine) uses. The heat sink-weight of batteries and other measures should contribute to safety.

All credit to Peter Coates for extensive coverage of Australian Sub Search Analysis.

 

[Blue Marlin]

22 Jul, 2015, 02.09AM IST

four Indian Navy Kilo class submarines will be given a second midlife upgrade that will increase their service life by 15 years. This refit contract is currently being negotiated between the Navy and the Russian government.

Once signed, the first of the four Kilo class submarines to be upgraded will be sent to Russia, where engineers and workers from Pipavav will be trained by Zvyozdochka. Work on the remaining three will then be carried out in India. While the initial contract would be for around Rs 5,000 crore, Pipavav has announced that the indicative value of work could be around Rs 11,000 crore.

Pipavav has said that the joint venture will place it favourably for undertaking similar work for large submarine forces of similar class deployed by countries like Algeria, Vietnam and Iran, with potential additional revenues of approx Rs 20,000 crore.

how much is 1000 crore to gdp. i can only find indian rupee.

i did read before pipvav can be a quote:
"Russia says that it wants to make India a global hub for the upgrade, maintenance and repair of conventional submarines and its leading shipyard is in final talks to select an Indian joint venture partner for a mega project to set up facilities here."
Russia wants to make India a global hub for submarine upgrade, maintenance and repair - The Economic Times

what you say sounds promising, but this i dont get: the initial contract would be for around Rs 5,000 crore, Pipavav has announced that the indicative value of work could be around Rs 11,000 crore.

why does the price go from 5000 to 11000?

anyhow i still think the scorpene option is still good and not perusing it would be shooting your self in to foot. but its not what i think. its your leaders who make the call and they are pushing for "Make in india" and doing up subs falls into that category so most likely they will go for both options more scorpene's and upgrade the kilo's

Both of you are correct that older japanese subs including first few soryus did use Strirling AIP but now they are going forward with Lithium Ion battery which they believe can be used at 4knots speed for 30 days submerged for 2900 nautical miles. ( Again quoting from Peter Coates research article on this subject)
This future sub will operate by 2025. AT present Tss-3601 Asahio which was using Striling AIP is now being used to test LIB.

This is a heavy duty Japanese made Lithium-ion Battery (LIB) of the type to be used in an energy storage facility in Chile (Photo courtesy GS Yuasa). GS Yuasa do not advertise LIBs for submarines but they would be in its "Industrial and Military" area.

Some analysis:
The Japanese Government and private industry have been methodically analysing the performance of Lithium-ion Batteries (LIBs) intended for use in submarines for more than a decade. LIBs may be the technology area that Japan has the greatest lead over its French (DCNS) and German (TKMS-HDW) competitors.

It appears that recent performance data on LIBs for submarine are kept very confidential by all 3 countries, on commercial and national security grounds. This makes it very difficult to ascertain whether any of the 3 have superior LIBs.

The US may also be developing LIBs that may be useful for submarine use. It is unknown whether the US Government (and US private industry) would exchange more LIB technical information with the US’s Pacific ally, Japan, or its NATO allies, Germany and France.

Japan's GS Yuasa makes LIBs for a wide variety of heavy industrial and military (including submarine) uses. The heat sink-weight of batteries and other measures should contribute to safety.

All credit to Peter Coates for extensive coverage of Australian Sub Search Analysis.

If you want to know about aip's you should read what i posted here:
Pakistan's tool of war: Agosta 90B, our submarine in the deep | Page 3