Cope India: How the IAF rewrote the rules of air combat

[gambit]

With the vacuum tubes the MiG-25’s radar had enormous power to burn through – that is, it was invulnerable to – any electronic jamming. And, the Pentagon generals were devastated to know, the vacuum tubes made the aircraft’s systems resistant to an electromagnetic pulse (EMP, about which the Russians knew long before the West did), meaning that in the event of a nuclear war the Foxbat would be the only – yes the only – aircraft flying on the planet.

The EMP myth persists.

The reality is that the MIG-25's radar was so shitty in terms of target resolution that it was next to useless in combat.

These are the vital target resolutions, whether that target is a car, an aircraft, or a ship...

- Altitude
- Speed
- Heading
- Aspect angle

So while the MIG-25's radar was powerful enough to achieve burn through of most countermeasures, it could only give the pilot the general location of the target, leaving the pilot clueless as to what else there are about that target. The system was so shitty that the best thing the pilot could do was to fire off a missile and hope the missile could find the target on its own. No US generals were 'devastated' once the technical aspects of radar detection were understood. The hyperbole 'devastated' is to boost the morale of the MIG-25's buyer who regretted the purchase. The EMP explanation was created for the same reason.

Today, 45 years after its first flight, the Foxbat remains the world’s fastest fighter – able to outrun every Western fighter that has been in service. Ever.

Yeah...It serves best as a recon. Calling the MIG-25 a 'fighter' is like calling the F-111 a 'fighter'. Nobody believes it.

Despite its horrendously expensive price tag, the US Air Force (USAF) doesn’t have the nerve to test the F-22 in combat.

The F-22 bombed targets in Syria. Missed the news ?

Well, first off, stealth technology is not an American invention. The entire idea, concept and theory of stealth aircraft was fully developed in Russia years before the Americans came to know about it.

Wrong. The concept of a 'stealth' fighter IS indeed an American product.

Petr Ufimtsev is a mathematician who formalized the math of EM reflections of surfaces. His work were considered to be militarily worthless by the Soviet government, which is astounding considering the paranoia of the Soviets at that time. That disregard means Ufimtsev was allowed to publish his work. Two Lockheed engineers -- not mathematicians -- used his math to create the world's first 'stealth' aircraft.

No...The Germans were not the first with the 229.

I have Ufimtsev's book on my shelf and it is nothing like the 'stealth' cookbook gullible people like yourself think it is. The book does not say 'If you want to reduce RCS here, do this and that.' It simply gives the math of reflection behaviors.

No need to continue.

 

[Windjammer]

Read my reply clearly..The official recorded violations came down by 10 to 1 ratio comparing before and after kargil..
Why can't you quote the number of Indian Violations made and compare both??

As you can see, the source i provided was an Indian one, i doubt any air force goes around boasting on how many times they violated a neighbour country's airspace, no air force would disclose that with perhaps exception of the IAF, which blatantly boasts about one of it's Foxbat breaking the sound barrier miles above Islamabad, perhaps you could kindly enlighten us on the breakdown of violations by the PAF over the years. As for the tall claim of PAF not lasting for more than a few days, i will come back to that later.

 

[Harisudan]

Entire word knows this.

In all previous wars...PAF shot down more IAF aircrafts than vice versa.

Go to ACIG.org...internationally recognized neutral air-war database compiling every kill in post WW-2 wars.

Go there and check "Indo-Pak" section.

The Link you gave www.acig.org, Under the section Indo-Pak, I found the below statement only..Care to explain where it is mentioned as PAF Kill ratio was more than that of IAF???

"The IAF also planned to take the offensive right from the begin, foremost by mounting relentless attacks on PAF airfields and radar installations, thus forcing the PAF to deploy own forces for defence, in turn giving the IAF a free hand to concentrate on its other tasks. Exactly such an action was the worst nightmare of the PAF, something that should have been prevented by the strikes of 3 December; then, with first light of the following day, one IAF formation after the other took off and turned west, penetrating deep into Pakistan at very low level, well bellow the Pakistani radar coverage. The PAF ground control could only order its interceptors to take off and bring them in position over routes which were most likely to be used by Indian fighters. For the PAF it was a battle for naked survival"

"The greatest success achieved a wave of 12 Indian fighters sent to attack targets in the Karachi area in southern Pakistan. The PAF never expected any kind of daylight attacks to be flown by Indians against targets in this area, and its readiness was low: consequently, the IAF air raids came as a complete surprise. Four Hunters of No.122 Squadron’s detachment based in Jamnagar (this unit was organized from aircraft and pilots drawn from Armament Training Wing, and had another detachment based at Jaisalmer) evaded detection by Pakistani radars before reaching Masroor, and then attacked using unguided rockets to claim destruction of eight F-86s and several B-57s on the ground. It seems that this strike also hit decoys, then the Pakistanis fiercely deny to have suffered any losses. Nevertheless, Masroor was extensively strafed and this is usually described as the “most successful” Indian air raid of 4 December. The PAF Sabres mounted an interception, attempting to catch the Indian fighters that were thundering at such a low level, that their jetstream was rising huge dust clouds and eyewitnesses recalled that bullets fired by both sides hit the ground near local houses. Eventually, Sqn.Ldr. Sajid, flying an F-86F of the No.19 Squadron, claimed one Hunter as shot down by AIM-9B, but as per records all Indian fighter-bombers returned safely. "
I don't see any where in the above two paragraphs taken from that website you gave, that the claim you've made is available..In the mean time I've gone through the whole page but couldn't post it all here and I didn't find anything worth..

 

[The Sultan Erdogan]

The Link you gave www.acig.org, Under the section Indo-Pak,

You have to look at the "Air-to-Air" kills of IAF and PAF.

Or you can go here.

A senior Indian member here summarizes the data from ACIG.org and confirms what I've said.

PAF has shot down way more aircrafts than IAF...both in "v.s" mode...and over-all...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/38075-paf-kills-versis-iaf-kills.html

 

[Osama Ali_16]

Paf had got more kills

 

[Harisudan]

As you can see, the source i provided was an Indian one, i doubt any air force goes around boasting on how many times they violated a neighbour country's airspace, no air force would disclose that with perhaps exception of the IAF, which blatantly boasts about one of it's Foxbat breaking the sound barrier miles above Islamabad, perhaps you could kindly enlighten us on the breakdown of violations by the PAF over the years. As for the tall claim of PAF not lasting for more than a few days, i will come back to that later.

I'm not even going to answer that...not worth responding..U and me both know the fact that with current resources PAF has it wont last more than 3 to 4 days on a ful scale war, but god forbid that happens..

 

[Harisudan]

You have to look at the "Air-to-Air" kills of IAF and PAF.

Or you can go here.

A senior Indian member here summarizes the data from ACIG.org and confirms what I've said.

PAF has shot down way more aircrafts than IAF...both in "v.s" mode...and over-all...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/38075-paf-kills-versis-iaf-kills.html

To respond to your Point,
I had the official documentaries viewed in my war studies class, and it dissects Air warfare during 1971 as one of the most nail biting contest that happened after world war 2..
But though the superior quality planes PAF had didn't change the situation much...Out of The Air to Air kills claimed by both sides atleast 50% of them were flop due to various factors..That is why we can see contradictory numbers from both sides..The snapshots provided by gun camers proved to be invalid for claim many a times..Not much recon was available after bombing or dog fight so no way to validate these claims..But I was searching for some good research papers provided by international defence experts were the IAF air to air kills were validated..Found something interesting for you..I found this source very neutral and this source also gave credits to PAF pilots were it was deserved..SO I think this could be it..
By the way the below statistics has been taken from Mr Harry's works..

 

[Windjammer]

I'm not even going to answer that...not worth responding..U and me both know the fact that with current resources PAF has it wont last more than 3 to 4 days on a ful scale war, but god forbid that happens..

You have made the claim sir hence you don't need to answer anything until i am able to put some aspect before you through proper sources.....
As for the above chart, a PAF log report is also available as well as some gun camera images, however despite the claims put forward by the IAF, one has yet to see a single proof of any Mirage aircraft being shot down by the IAF.

 

[Harisudan]

You have made the claim sir hence you don't need to answer anything until i am able to put some aspect before you through proper sources.

With all due respects mate I'm giving the facts that have been conceived after understanding the possible scenarios and capabilities on both sides for so many years..I don want to drag you into the numbers game again..With the current equipments and diverse platforms available, IAF definitely have the clear edge..
But I've never underestimated the PAF's pilot's abilities at all.They're also equally trained and they are no where a mismatch for us and are a professional airforce..

 

[Harisudan]

Click to expand...
We got civilians who owns and flies Fulcrums for fun. What can you guess the USAF have at Nellis ? May be even the new PAK-FA ?
We do not need radars or guns on these MIGs. We just want them flying the way it was designed. We got what we wanted.

Haha..Nice to see that you are enjoying this..Good that you can make jokes on PAK-FA by the way, it won't be much fun for your guys the day when you are made face them in combat..BTW Ruskies are badasses, trust me..
It is not about some stripped off fulcrums bought out from third world nations by your wealthy millionaires I'm talking about..It is about the Russian war machines under the hands of qualified pilots who created combat strategies and manoeuvres after flying those machines for decades together and after knowing them like the back of their hands..
Russian, Indian and Upto some extent Chinese are these so called experienced pilots I'm talking about..
Again its not just the machines that I'm talking about, it is the men who are behind those machines that knows these machines in and out..So that way, our Indian Pilots are really an asset for USAF for learning Russian based maneouvers and flying tactics, because Indian Brain behind a Russian jet will be very different than an American brain in a Russian jet..That too an American brain which was hardwired for American way of flying...Got my point???
which came out as a result of training with Russians and their war machines for decades together..
And you guys can't accept the fact that, we did have some tricks up our sleeves which surprised American Pilots in their elite machines..
You say that you've played down deliberately the rules of combat simulation like you did to Saudis who graduated out of US training schools with low grades..? What do you think, anything that is non US is not qualified to match you???
and You compare Indian Pilots to Saudis with Zero Air combat experience worth and u say that the difficulty level was the same for both???
Man I would have loved to face u Yanks in their teens with my fulcrum back in my days you would've known who you are betted against..I mean seriously man, u make statements like these about a qualified fighter force and one of the top 5 in the world just because they faired well against your teen birds in some exercise..It is totally unfair and this shows the way you respect yourselves..because the one who knows to respect the adversaries knows how to respect himself...

 

[kaku1]

Haha..Nice to see that you are enjoying this..Good that you can make jokes on PAK-FA by the way, it won't be much fun for your guys the day when you are made face them in combat..BTW Ruskies are badasses, trust me..
It is not about some stripped off fulcrums bought out from third world nations by your wealthy millionaires I'm talking about..It is about the Russian war machines under the hands of qualified pilots who created combat strategies and manoeuvres after flying those machines for decades together and after knowing them like the back of their hands..
Russian, Indian and Upto some extent Chinese are these so called experienced pilots I'm talking about..
Again its not just the machines that I'm talking about, it is the men who are behind those machines that knows these machines in and out..So that way, our Indian Pilots are really an asset for USAF for learning Russian based maneouvers and flying tactics, because Indian Brain behind a Russian jet will be very different than an American brain in a Russian jet..That too an American brain which was hardwired for American way of flying...Got my point???
which came out as a result of training with Russians and their war machines for decades together..
And you guys can't accept the fact that, we did have some tricks up our sleeves which surprised American Pilots in their elite machines..
You say that you've played down deliberately the rules of combat simulation like you did to Saudis who graduated out of US training schools with low grades..? What do you think, anything that is non US is not qualified to match you???
and You compare Indian Pilots to Saudis with Zero Air combat experience worth and u say that the difficulty level was the same for both???
Man I would have loved to face u Yanks in their teens with my fulcrum back in my days you would've known who you are betted against..I mean seriously man, u make statements like these about a qualified fighter force and one of the top 5 in the world just because they faired well against your teen birds in some exercise..It is totally unfair and this shows the way you respect yourselves..because the one who knows to respect the adversaries knows how to respect himself...

You was in Navy or AF?

 

[Harisudan]

You was in Navy or AF?

AF..and u??

 

[kaku1]

AF..and u??

Btech . Actually I have a friend in IDF, who was Navy Pilot, he flown the Harriers from INS Viraat.

 

[Harisudan]

Btech . Actually I have a friend in IDF, who was Navy Pilot, he flown the Harriers from INS Viraat.

Aahhh..Got them..Must have been a trainer by now..Because I see most of the Harrier Boys are now trainers all around the world..Some are flying commercial liners..

 

[Rain]

It feel nice to boast of such excercises... but before making any drastic conclusions one must pay a close attention to rules of engagements in such exercises. If the writer has been aware of those, he would not be making such tall claims.