Cope India: How the IAF rewrote the rules of air combat

[gambit]

The lopsided result can be explained in the difference in combat styles of the two air forces. While the IAF varied aircraft mixes, altitudes and formations, the American pilot seemed stuck in the static Cold War-style of ground-controlled interceptions, which gives little leeway to the individual pilot.

Source: Cope India: How the IAF rewrote the rules of air combat

This is flat out wrong.

Ground controlled intercepts are standard Soviet tactics and the USAF were simulating that for the Indians.

 

[Hyperion]

True tactics are never revealed in such exercises. The main objective of these multi-nation exercises is precisely to gauge such slip-ups.

And as far as Pakistan is concerned, it will do A OK when push comes to shove. We have to prove nothing to no one. We may slack in everything, however, when our survival is at stake, we excel at each and everything.

 

[gambit]

Also, US fighter pilots train in a closed system where delusion in the America military’s superiority reigns supreme. The belief is that overwhelming numbers – recall the 1000 bomber raids over defenceless and tiny Iraq – and technological pyrotechnics allow the US to dominate without sweating it out.

This is also very wrong. Anyone who have ever been to Red Flag, and I have, know that US pilots places high emphasis on individual skills EQUAL to teamwork. Not subordinate. Not higher. But equal. If we can gang up on a single opponent, we will. But we also trains in BFM and ACM and that it was an American fighter pilot -- John Boyd -- who revolutionized air combat with energy management theory in those maneuvers.

Note that for Top Gun, Red Flag, and Fighter Weapons School, none of their equivalents exists in Russia and India.

 

[Hyperion]

Don't know about India or Russia, however, I think Pakistan has something similar (tactics wise), it's called CCS (Combat Commander School)

Note that for Top Gun, Red Flag, and Fighter Weapons School, none of their equivalents exists in Russia and India.

 

[gambit]

First up, it’s true the F-15Cs that participated in Cope India 2004 were not equipped with the active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars. But then neither were the Indian jets. Secondly, at India’s request the USAF agreed to mock combat at 3-to 1 odds, which meant the six American jets were up against 18 IAF aircraft. And finally, the Americans agreed not to simulate their beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles. Doesn’t look like a fair fight.

But wait, ask yourself, which air force would spend millions of dollars on a fortnight long exercise that ends in a turkey shoot? Not the IAF, which is a highly professional service. Also, why would the USAF bring all that high-octane military gear all that way just to get a drubbing?

The air force that complies to a request of a friendly air force.

This article is hilarious in trying to make a great face for the IAF. It was India who requested and set the condition for the exercise. The Americans agreed to be overmatched numerically and to fight under the IAF's rules, so why is it unusual that the Americans 'lost' ?

 

[janon]

Note that for Top Gun, Red Flag, and Fighter Weapons School, none of their equivalents exists in Russia and India.

T.A.C.D.E, Indian Airforce

 

[Bang Galore]

The air force that complies to a request of a friendly air force.

This article is hilarious in trying to make a great face for the IAF. It was India who requested and set the condition for the exercise. The Americans agreed to be overmatched numerically and to fight under the IAF's rules, so why is it unusual that the Americans 'lost' ?

It happened 10 years ago, there is little point talking about it now. It is true that it did raise some eyebrows in the USAF & in the U.S. congress but that was merely that they might have underestimated their opponents, something the USAF officer admitted to. Beyond that, this whole thing is irrelevant. Even if some IAF pilots were better than the average USAF counterpart in those exercises (Happened with F-16's too in 2005), it would mean absolutely nothing in the real world.

Results of air exercise with India a "wake-up call" for US air force: general

WASHINGTON (AFP) Jun 23, 2004 The US Air Force got a "wake-up call" in air-to-air training exercises with India earlier this year that showed the United States can no longer take air superiority for granted in a conflict, a top US general said Wednesday.
A study of the "Cope India" air exercise, conducted by the US and Indian air forces in Gwalior, India last February, is secret, said General Hal Hornburg, head of the air force's Air Combat Command.

"But we have to learn a lot of things from that," he told defense reporters here. "We have to learn if we want air superiority it doesn't come cheap and it's not automatic."

The Russian-made SU-30s are reported to have bested the F-15s in a majority of their engagements, much to the surprise of the organizers.

It was the first time the two top-of-the-line US and Russian-made fighters have flown against each other in an exercise, an air force spokeswoman said.

It pitted F-15Cs from the air force's 3rd Wing out of Elmendorf Air Force Base in Alaska against a variety of Indian fighters, not just the SU-30s. They included Russian-built MiG-21s, MiG-29s and French-made Mirage 2000s.

Although the US fighters flew with certain restrictions that handicapped their effectiveness, the performance of the Indian fighters exceeded expectations.

"In general, we may have learned some things that suggest we may not be as far ahead of the rest of the world as we once thought we were," Hornburg said.

He said the results of the exercise showed the need for the F/A-22 Raptor and the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). Both aircraft are stealthier than the F-15, but the F/A-18 also has greater range and speed than the air force's existing fighters.

The air force has been battling the perception that the costly new fighters are a luxury at a time when the United States has dominance in the air.

"I thought it was a wake-up call for some things that we've been talking about before, and it provided validation," Hornburg said.

The trade journal Aviation Week and Space Technology reported last month that the exercises showed the SU-30s had a clear advantage over the F-15C in a long-range fight.

The US and Indian aircraft were seeing each other at the same time with their radars but the SU-30 pilots were able to simulate-fire their Russian-made AA-10 "fire-and-forget" Alamo missiles first, the weekly said.

Experts say the SU-30 has a more advanced radar than the F-15C.

Hornburg said the F-15Cs that took part in "Cope India" were not equipped with the latest US active electronically scanned array radar.

"We are going to put new radars, as much as we can afford, in the F-16s and the F-15Es, and my prediction is we will have to do for the F-15C as well in due course," the general said.

The exercise appears to hold lessons for the air force in east Asia, where China is acquiring SU-27 and SU-30 fighters and AA-12 air-to-air missiles.

"I see air forces across the spectrum and across the world becoming better and better as each year passes," Hornburg said.

"China is very formidable. It is a huge, collossal nation, and they are very technologically adept. Do I worry about the Chinese? I would say I worry about anyone who could be a possible threat, to include them and many others," he said.

Results of air exercise with India a "wake-up call" for US air force: general

Other links:

USAF explains 'Cope India' Results

USAF: Indian Exercises Showed Need For Changes In Training - Vayu Sena

 

[acetophenol]

Americans were trying to sell their F-15s and F-18s to India in those days in order to fulfill India's MRCA request.

I don't get it,US was trying to sell the aircrafts to India by not performing well in the excercise? Also,F-15s were not on MRCA competition and F/A-18s not in the excercise.

 

[Flying Eagle]

.........

 

[banvanaxl]

The IAF did not [...] engage thrust vectoring during the Exercise.

Jokes on you numbnut ..

 

[FNFAL]

We need a more nuetral approach to the topic at hand.
The gist of the matter is USAF underestimated and recieved a suprise. Please dont turn into a huge humiliation for the US side.Any country would drum up its achievemnts against a vastly superior force, but we must read between the lines.

Factors to consider:
-MIG21 has cockpit visibility far lower than an F15.Also its a point defence aircratf with frankly poor operating radius.
-Unlike say Israel, For a country of the size of India, we can afford a BVR engagement, and that is where we will eventually strive to excel. The F15C would maul a pack of Mig21s in BVR, The F15 is still the widely regarded as the king of BVRs given thhe combat

 

[gambit]

We need a more nuetral approach to the topic at hand.
The gist of the matter is USAF underestimated and recieved a suprise. Please dont turn into a huge humiliation for the US side.Any country would drum up its achievemnts against a vastly superior force, but we must read between the lines.

Factors to consider:
-MIG21 has cockpit visibility far lower than an F15.Also its a point defence aircratf with frankly poor operating radius.
-Unlike say Israel, For a country of the size of India, we can afford a BVR engagement, and that is where we will eventually strive to excel. The F15C would maul a pack of Mig21s in BVR, The F15 is still the widely regarded as the king of BVRs given thhe combat

In your dreams.

The gist of the matter is this...

- You invited US to your playground, we came.

- You set the conditions of the exercise, we consented.

- You put chains on US, we let you.

When I read words like: turkey shoot, drubbing, stuck, delusion, copout, leaden foot to describe US, I knew this rubbish of an article was written for internal morale boosting and distraction from the conditions the IAF set upon US, not for serious analysis of what happened. If we were surprised, it was because we set the expectations for the IAF low enough, like how low we usually set for the Saudis.

 

[FNFAL]

In your dreams..
If we were surprised, it was because we set the expectations for the IAF low enough, like how low we usually set for the Saudis

Do you realise you contradicted yourself ?

 

[gambit]

Do you realise you contradicted yourself ?

Did you understood what I wrote ?

 

[FNFAL]

Did you understood what I wrote ?

That should have been "understand" and not understood.
Maybe you should read again and try to grasp what has happened here.