Cope India: How the IAF rewrote the rules of air combat

[The Sultan Erdogan]

If we were surprised, it was because we set the expectations for the IAF low enough, like how low we usually set for the Saudis.

Alot of Saudi pilots now get trained in the U.S academies. Shouldn't they be better now?

Also, they have conducted Red Flags, Green Flags etc..Don't you think Saudi standard has risen from say what it was twenty years ago?

Which 'non-western' nation would you rank "closest" to American standards when it comes to pilot training, tactics, and etc.

Israel? Pakistan? South Korea?

 

[gambit]

Alot of Saudi pilots now get trained in the U.S academies. Shouldn't they be better now?

Also, they have conducted Red Flags, Green Flags etc..Don't you think Saudi standard has risen from say what it was twenty years ago?

Buddy, we lowered the standards for the spoiled brats of the Saudi Air Force. We let these princes be 'Top Gun' so they can return home and put in good words to the King. We rolled our eyes at them as they strutted by. But then again, that was back in the 80s and 90s.

Which 'non-western' nation would you rank "closest" to American standards when it comes to pilot training, tactics, and etc.

Israel? Pakistan? South Korea?

I will let you wonder.

 

[The Sultan Erdogan]

Buddy, we lowered the standards for the spoiled brats of the Saudi Air Force. We let these princes be 'Top Gun' so they can return home and put in good words to the King. We rolled our eyes at them as they strutted by. But then again, that was back in the 80s and 90s.

Yeah, I've heard a lot of such stories about Saudis.

Why instructors in U.S war schools aren't "strict" to these brats? Shouldn't they be grilling these cadets to take them to higher standards?

I will let you wonder.

Well, Koreans, Pakistanis, Israelis etc. are all forces that have been training by Western standards and have had very close alliances with the military forces to Western World.

South Koreans I assume would be very much like West. In everything.

Israelis and Pakistanis will have their own indigenous tactics derived from their combat experiences in Middle-East and South Asia...mixed with standard Western approach to air warfare.

Hence it is hard to take a guess.

Israelis have a reputation. But Koreans and Pakistanis aren't "brats" like Saudis and when on training, they don't have a reputation to be slackers. Both Korean and Pakistani militaries have strict military discipline as many of their officers graduate from Western military academies.

So for me, its not an easy choice. I want to say Israel but then again, that's going by the reputation.

A person who have actually worked with multiple air-forces will be in a position to answer better, hence I asked.

 

[SirHatesALot]

they can return home and put in good words to the King

Why would you do that?

 

[Mav3rick]

Well, Koreans, Pakistanis, Israelis etc. are all forces that have been training by Western standards and have had very close alliances with the military forces to Western World.

South Koreans I assume would be very much like West. In everything.

Israelis and Pakistanis will have their own indigenous tactics derived from their combat experiences in Middle-East and South Asia...mixed with standard Western approach to air warfare.

Hence it is hard to take a guess.

Israelis have a reputation. But Koreans and Pakistanis aren't "brats" like Saudis and when on training, they don't have a reputation to be slackers. Both Korean and Pakistani militaries have strict military discipline as many of their officers graduate from Western military academies.

So for me, its not an easy choice. I want to say Israel but then again, that's going by the reputation.

A person who have actually worked with multiple air-forces will be in a position to answer better, hence I asked.

We can go by the account of actual combat between any of these 3 competing forces, for your consumption

 

[The Sultan Erdogan]

We can go by the account of actual combat between any of these 3 competing forces, for your consumption

Going by actual combat,

Israelis will come on top in regards to sheer number of engagements.

Pakistanis will come on top in regards to toughest enemy faced (Indian Air Force) and out-shooting them by higher kill ratio.

Koreans don't have much modern air-war practice, but nevertheless, their training and discipline is supreme.

I wonder what @gambit has to say about this

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Nothing significant in American perception.

No cables found on Redflag or Cope India

 

[Mav3rick]

Going by actual combat,

Israelis will come on top in regards to sheer number of engagements.

Pakistanis will come on top in regards to toughest enemy faced (Indian Air Force) and out-shooting them by higher kill ratio.

Koreans don't have much modern air-war practice, but nevertheless, their training and discipline is supreme.

I wonder what @gambit has to say about this

I was more inclined towards actual combat between the 3 contestants. PAF pilots have taken on IAF Pilots in actual war, on behalf of the Arabs, and shot down 6-9 Israeli Jets without losing a single Jet in response.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

To all non americans---never under estimate the americans---.

If they let you win during the excercizes---you really need to get weary and keep your guard up for where and how they are going to get you in actual combat.

Just remember---americans can make you perform at 110% but they still maybe at 70---80%. Americans have been at this game the longest----but that hasn't made them slackers---rather made them work harder and smarter---.

Bottomline----believe at you own PERIL about your invincibility.

 

[$even]

.

One can only hope things change for the better with the change in government.


(demeaning or otherwise, it is understood that the kill ratio (at Mountain Home AFB) was 21 : 1, in favour of the Su-30MKIs).

Kill ratio of 21:1 in favor of the MKI against USAF F15s and F16s.

I suspect sardar ji was drunk when he wrote to Dew Line.

 

[gambit]

I going to clue you guys in on an open secret...

Nobody on this planet is more attuned to mechanical things like Americans are/can. Not the Swiss. Not even the Germans. It does not matter where you came from and when you get here. Once you are in the US, something about the country and the people that get into you and make you and your children more in tune with manmade things than anywhere else.

Yeah...The Swiss can make fine watches and entertaining cuckoo clocks, and the Germans can make tight fitting cars, but it is Americans who democratized mechanical skills, tools, tinkering, and engineering. Every American child grow up with at least one bicycle, but more like two and three. The car is practically a rite of passage into adulthood for every American male. Every culture is famous for one thing or several things. For Americans, it is the toolbox in the garage. Travel across the country, and you will meet people eager to show off what they created out of their garages. It does not matter if the object is not smooth or make funny noises. As long as it works good enough for what it creator want, it is good. It is a curiosity about mechanical objects that is national in scope.

Put a jet fighter into the hands of a man, and now a woman, who grew up in this kind of culture and he/she will push it beyond its limits, break it, put it back together, and break it again. We will find ways to use it in ways no one expect it to be used. You think we cannot fix a jet fighter with a broomstick and a six pack of soda to make it fly just one more sortie ? Think again. I have done it and I have trained others on how to do it. You think we do not know how to penetrate a Soviet radar net while flying absolutely EM silent ? Think again. We done it and the Ruskies never knew it. We are not afraid to make mistakes and we made more than anyone in the world.

And we got no problems with people believing we are incompetent.

 

[Windjammer]

Where is your source of Eurofighters mincemeating Su-30MKIs?

Also, any sources for PAF shooting down Eurofighters and specially F-15 Eagles?

Alan Warnes reports of PAF shooting down Typhoons were questioned by skeptics as the accounts did not add up, as far as I remember.

Anyways, sources will be appreciated.

'British Typhoons whacked India's Sukhois in joint exercises' - Hindustan Times (New Delhi, India) | HighBeam Research

 

[Harisudan]

@The Sultan Erdogan

Author | Rakesh Krishnan Simha

Indian myth making continues.

Here is what happened when the Indians took their MKIs to Red Flag.

PAF is well equipped and well trained to take on the Indians should the rubber meet the road.

@Horus , I haven't expected such a rebuttal from a senior hand like you..For the Video, You've claimed as a Myth Busting number claims against it have raised and most of them proved right..Hell, even the USAF agreed that the guy who briefed was not a part of the exercise any where..Apart from that, too many flaws in what he briefed about confusing the Bisons to Fulcrums and Vice Versa..
And knowing all this, if this is your reaction, then wish you good luck in your dream land..
And regarding PAF well equipped and prepared to take on IAF, you can say that here, because this is PDF and nobody is going to prove you otherwise..
I've known your falcons from the day my SQN was dedicated to counter your Falcon's and only your Falcons and nothing else..
here is a tit bit news I'll give which is not known to many civilians here..
After Kargil every time PAF Falcon took to Skies Fulcrums will be in the air on patrol and this had been the condition for many years together and we could see the Falcon taking off sitting from way inside our territory ..
You can check your PAF reports on airspace violation committed by PAF from 1998 till today, you'll get a fair idea about what I'm trying to say when you see the graph steeply coming down after 1998..
On a fair perspective, PAF cannot defend itself on an all out war not for More than (3-4 days)and god forbid that from happening..Your Officers and our officers both know this..It is people like u sitting in front of the keyboard live in such day dreams..
IAF have moved out of Pakistan centric approach long back, to be precise decades back and that is the main reason for the procurement of Flankers from Russia..PAF is no more a threat..Hell not even PLAF when it comes to defending ourselves..We can very well defend our borders from both the threats even combined..
I do not want to make this another PAF vs IAF thread, because it may hurt many peoples ego..
Experts here can prove me otherwise(If at all any PAF experts are here)..

 

[Harisudan]

If the actual results has been such, do you think the IAF or the Indian media would have remained quite about it.
Fact is after conclusion of Indra Dhanush-1, despite both commanders agreeing not to disclose anything to media, the IAF commander couldn't contain himself in boasting about shooting down an RAF Tornado and later when some Typhoons made mincemeat of MKIs, disclosed by none other than the RAF Chief, Indians came up with stories of radars not being switched on or something.
Despite news getting leaked on PAF repeatedly scoring over the likes of Typhoons and F-15 Eagles, it quietly goes about it's business and is all geared up to meet the challenge from IAF.

Generalisation of any Aircraft is not the right way to go..As per your comment, Typhoons made mincemeat of MKIs and your PAF made mincemeat of eagles and Typhoons???
Isn't it odd???
I do accept that, there are possibilities under which the above case might have happened as Typhoons might have had majority kills over MKIs and some other day under some other flying conditions PAF falcons could have had the better of typhoons , but generalising it as IAF MKIs where mincemeat to typhoons whereas the same typhoons were chopped into mince meat by PAF makes it sound like typical Pakistani arrogance and nothing else...

 

[Harisudan]

This is also very wrong. Anyone who have ever been to Red Flag, and I have, know that US pilots places high emphasis on individual skills EQUAL to teamwork. Not subordinate. Not higher. But equal. If we can gang up on a single opponent, we will. But we also trains in BFM and ACM and that it was an American fighter pilot -- John Boyd -- who revolutionized air combat with energy management theory in those maneuvers..
Note that for Top Gun, Red Flag, and Fighter Weapons School, none of their equivalents exists in Russia and India.

Agreed that these are the top schools which plays important role in formulating strategies and combat tactics in Airwarfare for USAF..But quoting that none of the training institutes in Russia and India are equal to your training schools is an outright blasphemy..Agreed that, USAF and Navy pilots are one among the highly trained and qualified pilots in the world, but that doesn't mean that, they are the only ones in the world..