Cope India: How the IAF rewrote the rules of air combat
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Harisudan
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And I think you were conceived in your mom's womb, born, brought up and fed till date in the same Imaginary land you say that I'm working in.. is that so???He was with the IAF - Imaginary Air Force.
Or you are a false flagger??Have some balls to show your true colours man..
Keyboard warriors like you can't even go through one day of what I was trained for my whole service years..
Which ever country you belong have the guts to put the flag of that country and take pride in it..
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I don't know why you have to pretend to be a former IAF officer. One look at your post and it's obvious you are a poseur. Your angry abusive response does not really help your case it's really not conduct befitting a former officer of the IAF.
Harisudan
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So, what do you want me to do??To prove losers like you that I belonged to a fighting force??
Heck, I've got better things to do..One look at my post and you analysed ??who are you God??
BTW, mods @Oscar, @WebMaster ..Pls save from this non sense??Or I'll be out of this place..How do I mute someone from quoting me???
MilSpec
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Author of the article has got it wrong on all counts and probably should try his hand towards screen play writing instead instead of writing on actual combat after a late night topgun and diet of Cheetos and redbull........
Indian Air Force did not re-write any rules of air combat.....
results of joint exercises has no whatsoever significance in real combat....
Joint combat exercises and drills are to study certain engagement situation... their results are only valid in those constrained situations.
The main objective is to study calibrated approach tactics of participants in the given engagement scenario....
In an exercise, based on engagement constraints, a Bison can best f15's or f16's... in real combat in those exact constraints those results might have validity, but without any constraints F16's or f15's will make mince meat out of those bisons, same applies to f16 vs EFT's/ Rafales, F16's vs MKI, f16 vs Mig29 and alike.
Indian Air Force did not re-write any rules of air combat.....
results of joint exercises has no whatsoever significance in real combat....
Joint combat exercises and drills are to study certain engagement situation... their results are only valid in those constrained situations.
The main objective is to study calibrated approach tactics of participants in the given engagement scenario....
In an exercise, based on engagement constraints, a Bison can best f15's or f16's... in real combat in those exact constraints those results might have validity, but without any constraints F16's or f15's will make mince meat out of those bisons, same applies to f16 vs EFT's/ Rafales, F16's vs MKI, f16 vs Mig29 and alike.
sir dont go that path . you will be provoked to give more info.. just chill and let key board warrior live in fantasy land!
Rhino skin!
Harisudan
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I think Bison's with KOPYO radar, Adder/Alamo BVR Missiles, And HMS Queued Archer, Bisons are a deadly sneaky Bast@rds and if the Teen fighters don't take it out on a first kill with their AMRAAMS, then it will give them more than a run for money..Trust me, the way the Bison shoots up suddenly behind you is really a thriller especially it will shake of the Teen fighter's morale for a second and on afterburning Mode it will do more than just to climb up but even out run Teens on an Interceptor mode with low payload, I think Bisons will be just the match for any teens as interceptor..Nobody's gonna make a mince meat out of it..
Except the 'Teen' pilot has better all round visibility, situational awareness and much lower work load as opposed to the Bison. These factors can be crucial in close combat. And I really doubt a Bison can out climb an F-16 or F-15. After all the F-15's zoom climb record was only bested by the Su-27 years later plus the departure prone Bison will be constrained by lower angle of attack and minimum air speed. The Bisons are harder to visually acquire I'll give you that but I really don't like the Bisons odds of surviving a merge with a 'teen'.
Harisudan
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Nope, The Bison can match toe to toe in terms of Climb rate as per official general dynamics sources..
The latest upgrades for Bisons along ELTA ECM pods is what makes it deadly and quite difficult to get a lock on..
Bisons during our own exercises and validations held their ground pretty well against advanced fighter jets such as MKI..
The only Fighter that can give the bison some problems is the Upgraded F16s such block 52 and above..
The lower angle of attack is compensated by high offboresight HMS Qued Archer..
So I still think it is a formidable opponent for Teens without latest AESA upgradation..
The latest upgrades for Bisons along ELTA ECM pods is what makes it deadly and quite difficult to get a lock on..
Bisons during our own exercises and validations held their ground pretty well against advanced fighter jets such as MKI..
The only Fighter that can give the bison some problems is the Upgraded F16s such block 52 and above..
The lower angle of attack is compensated by high offboresight HMS Qued Archer..
So I still think it is a formidable opponent for Teens without latest AESA upgradation..
gambit
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Very good, sir.
From my days in the USAF, one of the more common exercise constraints is reduced radar range, meaning one force deliberately limit its range and scope of radar operations to simulate a known threat. The opposing force then formulate its offensive and defensive tactics based upon these constraints. It has nothing to do with the known threat aircrafts' turn rate, climb rate, weapons load, etc. Radar capabilities highly influence how an offense will take place, from what distance to what altitude will an assault begins. If the defense know, or at least have high confidence on what kind and level of EM threats are inbound, and if the defense have superior technical capabilities, it can sooner position its forces in more advantageous positions to meet the threats.
At the end of the exercise, everyone meet and discuss what happened. The debriefs/analyses are not intended to assign blame because blame implies a contest with a trophy and failure to win the trophy. It is true that pilots tends to be 'type A' personalities and naturally will treat just about anything as a contest, but maturity will inevitably take over and the exercise will expose flaws in everything, from people of all ranks, to ideas that either succeeded or failed. Great pilots, great squadrons, and great air forces are that way because they are willing to expose themselves to criticisms and that exposure came from taking risks on ideas. Only in debriefs/analyses can ideas be rated as good, not so good, or bad, and what is a 'bad idea' today may turn out to be a good one tomorrow. That is why the USAF are often called upon to provide host air forces with experiments on their own ideas on how to defend their countries. Base on our own experience, we will provide inputs on how to design and conduct these exercises.
Everyone benefits, the host learns what works and what will not, and the USAF will have another entry in our books on who does what and why.
That is why this article with its not so subtle jabs at US should not be taken seriously by rational minds. The Indian Air Force rewrote the rules of air combat ? More likely the Indian Air Force rewrote the rules for its own outdated defense plans, not of air combat in general.
Please share your source, according to information available to the public the Mig-21's maximum rate of climb is 46,250 ft/min.
Slower than the F-16's 50,000 ft/min. I don't see the Bison pulling away from the F-16 in the vertical.
You keep talking about jammers what use are jammers close in? Do you except to use radar guided missiles with in visual range? An aircraft with the higher alpha limit(AoA) has a better chance of keeping the target within the field of view of the infra-red missile seeker. Which is why the F-18 & Mig-29 is still widely regarded as an extremely potent opponent in a dog fight.
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Predictable response that has been refuted almost in its entirety
- The Su-30MKI did not use the data link in the exercise unlike the other air forces. The reason being the HAL supplied system is not compatible with NATO data links – neither is the system required to be compatible with NATO. The speaker clearly mentions that the high fratricide ratio in the kills was because of this reason. While NATO air forces are designed to inter operate with each other and carry out joint missions, the IAF is not.
- Su-30MKI is equipped with its own data link which can share target information across multiple fighters. IAF is presently inducting A-50EI Phalcon AEW&C aircraft. Red Flag and other exercises before it have seen IAF working very closely with the AWACS crew of the other air force. Operational Data Link (ODL) will be provided to all fighters in the IAF over the coming years.
- The IFF system used by IAF is not compatible with NATO standard, hence the need for verbal communication with the controller.
- The aircraft were operating their radars on training mode since the actual signals with which the Bars radar operates are kept secret.
- The high mix of highly experienced pilots in Ex Cope India, if true, cannot be consistent across all sqns that were involved in the exercise. During Cope India, the 24 Sqn operating Su-30K/MK was first Flanker unit in the IAF and only one of two Su-30 units in the entire IAF at that time. To find a concentration of senior pilots in these squadrons will not be unexpected given that these units will be forging doctrines and tactics and building up a pool of pilots. Per article on Cope India here; “Nor did U.S. pilots believe they faced only India's top guns. Instead, they said that at least in some units they faced a mix of experienced and relatively new Indian fighter and strike pilots.”. Moreover, the mix of experience needs to be examined for the USAF squadrons as well. The aggressor squadron at Nellis and the F-22 attracts the best in the USA.
- MiG-21 Bison does not have an Israeli radar as noted in the lecture. The type is equipped with a Phazotron Kopyo (spear) unit. The Kopyo radar has a 57km detection range against a 5 m^2 (54ft^2) radar cross section, or fighter-sized target. It can track eight targets and shoot at two simultaneously.
- Su-30MKI is equipped with Saturn AL-31FP engines, not Turmansky as mentioned in the lecture
- Soviet era aircraft were designed to operate from poorly prepared airfields. For example; MiG-29 closes its intakes during taxi and take-off to avoid ingestion of FOD thrown up by the front wheels. In this state the engines are supplied air through louvres located on upper surface of the leading edge. This design feature is at the cost of significant internal fuel capacity and hence has been eliminated in newer MiG-29 versions starting with the K/KUB variants. Flanker come with lighter anti-FOD grills in the intakes as well as wheel fenders that catch FOD. IAF has precautions built into their SOPs – which may be overlooked in case of war or any such exigency. Since the deployment was far away from home base in the USA, with no spares support and related infrastructure it was well worth to observe strict adherence to SOPs instead to being stuck with a grounded aircraft!
As the only Indian journalist who spent a lengthy period of time at Nellis after being granted permission by both the Indian Air Force and the US Air Force, I was granted access to impeccable sources in both forces.
Whats more, I was able to independently corroborate this information with reliable, alternative sources.
For starters ... and this cannot be stressed enough ... the Red Flag exercises were a brilliant learning experience for all the participants, not least of all the Indian Air Force which, over a period of time, has earned the reputation of being one of the world's finest operational air forces.
This was a reputation which was reinforced at Red Flag 2008, the world's most advanced air combat exercises where the Indian Air Force fielded a number of state of the art Sukhoi 30 MKI jets in addition to IL-76 transports and IL-78 mid air refuellers.
For other participants at the Red Flag exercises ... namely the South Korean Air Force, French and US Air Force ... the opportunity to train with a platform such as the Sukhoi 30 MKI was an opportunity which just couldn't be missed. This has a lot to do not just with the jet but also with the air force operating the fighter, a force which has made a mark as an innovative operator of fast jets. The US Air Force … the host of these exercises … was singularly gracious in its appreciation for the Indian Air Force contingent which came into Red Flag having trained extensively for the exercises not only back home but also at the Mountain Home Air Force base in the US.
Contrary to unsolicited remarks by certain serving US personnel not directly linked to day to day operations at the exercises … the Indian Air Force and its Su-30s more than made a mark during their stint in the United States. For starters … not a single Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter was `shot down’ in close air combat missions at the Mountain Home air base. In fact, none of the Sukhois were even close to being shot down in the 10 odd one on one sorties which were planned for the first two days of the exercises at Mountain Home. These one on one engagements featured USAF jets such as the F-15 and F-16 in close air engagements against the Su-30 MKI. The majority of the kills claimed in these engagements were granted to the Indian Air Force with the remainder of these being no-results. Indian Air Force Sukhois did use their famed thrust vectoring in these one on one engagements. Contrary to what may have been reported elsewhere … the Su-30 has a rate of turn of more than 35 degrees when operating in the thrust vector mode. In certain circumstances, this goes up substantially.
By the time the exercises at Mountain Home had matured … the Indian Air Force had graduated to large formation exercises which featured dozens of jets in the sky. In one of these exercises … the blue forces, of which the Indian Air Force was a part … shot down more than 21 of the enemy jets. Most of these `kills’ have been credited to the Indian Air Force.
By the time the Indian Air Force was ready for Red Flag, the contingent had successfully worked up using the crawl, walk, run principle. At Red Flag though, they found themselves at a substantial disadvantage vis a vis the other participants since they were not networked with AWACS and other platforms in the same manner in which USAF or other participating jets were. In fact, Indian Air Force Sukhois were not even linked to one another using their Russian built data links since American authorities had asked for specifics of the system before it was cleared to operate in US airspace. The IAF, quite naturally, felt that this would compromise a classified system onboard and decided to go on with the missions without the use of data links between the Sukhois.Neither was the Indian Air Force allowed to use chaff or flares, essential decoys to escape incoming missiles which had been fired by enemy jets. This was because the US FAA had visibility and pollution related concerns in the event that these were used in what is dense, busy air space in the Las Vegas region.
The Red Flag exercises themselves were based on large force engagements and did not see the Indian Air Force deploy thrust vectoring at all on any of the Sukhoi 30 jets not that this was required since the engagements were at long ranges. Though it is true that there were 4-5 incidents of fratricides involving the Indian Air Force at Red Flag … it is important to point out the following: In the debriefs that followed the exercises … responsibility for the fratricides were always put on the fighter controllers not the pilots. Its also important to point that unlike in Mountain Home, none of the Indian Air Force’s own fighter controllers were allowed to participate since there was classified equipment at Nellis used for monitoring the exercises. The lack of adequate controlling and the fact that Nellis fighter controllers often had problems understanding Indian accents (they had problems understanding French accents as well) resulted in a lack of adequate controlling in situations. Whats more … given the fact that the availability of AWACS was often low … the bulk of fratricides took place on days when the AWACS jet was not deployed. Whats important to remember though is that US participants in these exercises had a similar number of fratricides despite being fully linked in with data links and the latest IFF systems.
So was the Indian Air Force invincible at Red Flag. In a word … no. So yes, there were certainly days in which several Sukhoi jets were shot down. And there were others when they shot down many opposing jets. Ultimately though … the success of the Indian Air Force at Red Flag lay in the fact that they could meet their mission objectives as well, if not better, than any other participant. Despite the hot weather conditions, the IAF had a 95 per cent mission launch ratio, far better than some of the participants. And no one went into the exercises thinking the score line would be a perfect one in favour of the IAF. In fact … the IAF went into these exercises with an open mind and with full admiration of the world beating range at Nellis with an unmatched system of calibrating engagement results.Perhaps the most encouraging part of these exercises comes from the fact that the Indian Air Force’s young pilots … learnt from their mistakes, analysed, appreciated and came back strong. Mistakes were not repeated. In fact … the missions where the IAF did not fare well turned out to be immense learning experiences. At the end of the exercises … its more than clear that the IAF’s Su-30s were more than a match for the variants of the jets participating at the Red Flag exercises. Considering the fact that the central sensor of the Sukhoi, its radar … held up just fine in training mode …despite the barrage of electronic jamming augurs well for the Indian Air Force.
The complete article is available here.
Observations by Pushpindar Singh Chopra.
Mr. PS Chopra is the Editor of Vayu Aerospace Review.
The IAF did not undertake any IvIs at Nellis during Red Flag, nor did they engage thrust vectoring during the Exercise. IvIs were flown only at Mountain Home AFB. In none of the IvIs were the Su-30MKIs ever vulnerable, let alone shot down. As all exercises were flown with ACMI, the situations are recorded and available to substantiate this aspect. Additionally, the MKI's behaviour with thrust vectoring is dramatically different from that described by the Colonel. F-15 and F-16 aircrew were well appreciative of IAF manoeuvres with thrust vectoring.
Colonel Fornof's statement on Su-30MKI rates of turn with thrust vectoring (20o/ sec) is grossly 'out' but apparently gives away actual F-22 performance (28o/sec). Pitch of the talk seemed as to whether thrust vectoring was important or not. As all sorties were with ACMI, entire profiles are recorded, can be analysed and surely would have been replayed to drive the point home and make the 'chest thumping' sound more real. Apparently this was not done. Perhaps, as the Colonel is aware of F-22 data, he has tried to down play the Su-30MKI in comparison. Surprisingly, while there was no systems / avionics / comparison between the two types or with any other type of 'legacy' aircraft, the speaker does admit that radar of the MKI is 'superior' to that of the F-15 and F-16, however 'inferior' to AESA of the F-22 (a correct assessment). However, the IAF used the Su-30's radar in the training mode, with downgraded performance vis-à-vis operational mode, as they could hardly participate without this primary sensor
Fratricide by IAF fighters : this is correct, the IAF did 'shoot down' some 'friendlies' and that was assessed and attributed to the IAF not being networked. However, what the Colonel did not bring out were the two essential reasons for this. Firstly, this occurred mainly when the AWACS was not available (unserviceable) and controlling was done by GCI. More significantly it happened during extremely poor controlling by their operators, this fact being acknowledged during debriefs and the controllers being admonished accordingly. 'Accents' were perhaps the main culprit here, which very often led to American controllers not being able to understand Indian calls.
Now hear this : the F-15C and other USAF fighters had the same number of fratricides as the IAF ! Considering they are well networked, yet their pilots shot down the same number of 'friendlies'. This was not only a major concern but also turned out to be a major source of embarrassment as the USAF had everything -- Link 16, IFF Mode 4 etc and the IAF had nothing. Under the Rules of Engagement, they did not even permit the IAF to use data link within themselves. All cases of USAF fratricide were covered in the next day's mass briefing as lessons learnt by concerned aircrew. In the IAF, the incidents were covered by concerned controllers, and attributed to lack of adequate integration, excessive R/T congestion and poor controlling. Gloating on cases of IAF fratricide is frivolous and unprofessional.
However, Colonel Fornof did appreciate IAF 'professionalism' and that the IAF were able to dovetail with USAF procedures within short time. There was not a single training rule / airspace violation. This is a most important aspect.
Since the Colonel could hardly tell his audience that the IAF had given the USAF good run for their money, they downplayed the Su-30's capability. It is correct that the IAF aircrew included some very young pilots -- nearly 70 percent - but they adapted rapidly to the environment (totally alien), training rules (significantly different), airspace regulations etc but to say that they were unable to handle the Su-30 in its envelope (something that they have been practicing to do for four to five years) is just not credible ! If young pilots can adapt to new rules and environment within a short span of two weeks, it is because they are extremely comfortable and confident of their aircraft.
The IAF's all round performance was publicly acknowledged during, and at end of the Exercise, specifically by those involved. Not a single TR / airspace violation was acknowledged. Mission achievement rate was in excess of 90%. The drop out / mission success rates of all others, inclusive of USAF, were significantly lower. This is of major significance considering the fact that IAF was sustaining operations 20,000 km away from home base while the USAF were at home base. (The 8 Su-30s flew some 850 hrs during the deployment, which is equivalent to four months of flying task in India over 75 days). IAF's performance at Mountain Home AFB was even better that that at Nellis AFB.
FOD : At Mountain Home, IAF had reduced departure intervals from the very beginning (30" seconds) considering that operating surfaces were very clean. However, a few minor nicks were encountered and it was decided to revert to 60 seconds rather than undertake engine changes. This was communicated by the IAF at the very start (IPC itself).
There is no need to go in for 'kill ratios' as that would be demeaning. However, the IAF had significant edge throughout and retained it. In fact the true lesson for the USAF should be : 'do not field low value legacy equipment against the Su-30MKI' !. (demeaning or otherwise, it is understood that the kill ratio (at Mountain Home AFB) was 21 : 1, in favour of the Su-30MKIs).
Exercise Red Flag 2008-4 / Su-30MKI vs F-15, F-16, F-22
This colonel had no authority to speak on the exercise and is clearly trying to make a hard push for the F-22 (at the time remember the F-22 production line had not closed and the USAF were lobbying hard for more than the 190 they eventually received).
Harisudan
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My dear $even,
I think you are too confused and obsessed about the specifcations and numbers..The rate of climb is a relative factor..It inversely varies with the altitude..So this advantage of shooting past a fighter with higher rate of climb alone will not workout practically..And More over in dog fight the rate of climb is not such crucial factor when the two planes equally powered..In case of F16s they get into stall when they climb at a high angle of attack and becomes an easy meat for a gun kill..so as you've suggested climbing itself is not a wise option all the time against a bison, may be climb up with some pitch and and a half roll and they break off the pursue???But in the case of Bisons they practically get into scissors with F16, let alone f15..That proves the maneouvarability of the Bisons...Though the climbrate favours the teens it is not always advantageous to climb up because though with lesser climb rate, the pursuer will be in you 6ó clock within no time to fire at your a$$..With similar thrust to weight ratio, I would say the little advantages f-16 have can be overcome by the ARCHER..Do u know the Americans have nightmare thinking about the HMS QUED archer when they were made to face in the red October exercise..One Mig Pilot scored 9 f-18 kills to his archer..That is how deadly the High offboresight archer missile qued with HMS..
The Alpha rate for Bisons is not soo bad when compared to Falcons..Deep Yawing and High angle of attack can be complimented by a simple rudder role and hence not necessarily a deciding factor..Besides the Bisons can do yaws at high angle of attack..It is the Falcons which gets into stall due to its relatively unstable aerodynamic capapbilities during high angle of attack Pitching..Hence within visual range you have no chance whatsoever to survive a bison due to this deadly combo of Archer, High and slow speed maneouvors and manual control and a stable semi delta wing config..
Hyperion
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Good one! 
You sound a lot like a member we used to know here..... his handle was something "Safriz"............... on topic, you have to see Arabs in real combat to understand their lack of capabilities. The Almighty himself can train them and they shall still fail with an A grade. I've seen analyzed them all my life, from military personnel, engineers to doctors. They just aren't made for anything that requires frequent use of grey matter or any sort of courage. In medicine and engineering you have to make the exams easier, in combat training you have to pass them on a degraded-pussy-scale. What they do love is shiny medals and the word Dr. next to their names.
You sound a lot like a member we used to know here..... his handle was something "Safriz"............... on topic, you have to see Arabs in real combat to understand their lack of capabilities. The Almighty himself can train them and they shall still fail with an A grade. I've seen analyzed them all my life, from military personnel, engineers to doctors. They just aren't made for anything that requires frequent use of grey matter or any sort of courage. In medicine and engineering you have to make the exams easier, in combat training you have to pass them on a degraded-pussy-scale. What they do love is shiny medals and the word Dr. next to their names.
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