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Comparing India and Pakistan 2010

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Once Hittler said some thing like that :mod::

"If i have an army of 100 loins but there leader is a dog than i will be failed and defeated but if i have army of 100 dogs but their leader is a loin i can win the bettle"

1st case is same as Pakistani nation has we have nation of loins but leaders are dogs . :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
We need loin as a leader of loin's heart nation.
 
When it becomes abundantly clear that "Shining India" is in fact quite lackluster in reality, the Indian hyper patriot netizens try to do what Irfan Husain calls "Shoot the Messenger".

Here's Husain's recent column on this subject:

Every now and then, I get an email from one irate Indian reader or another, demanding to know why Jawed Naqvi, Dawn’s erudite and irreverent New Delhi correspondent, is so critical of India. Invariably, I reply that they should ask Jawed about his views. I also point out that just as I am often critical about Pakistan, he has every right to point out his country’s shortcomings.

I suspect what upsets these readers is that an Indian should be voicing critical comments about his country in a foreign newspaper. I was subjected to similar censure from expatriate Pakistanis when I wrote for a Gulf daily. Finally, the editor told me politely that my criticism of Musharraf was incompatible with his paper’s policy, and that was the end of the (small) trickle of Dubai dirhams.

The reality is that we are all touchy about seeing our dirty linen washed in public, but somehow, Indians seem super-sensitive to any hint of criticism. While there are many dissenting voices that question Indian claims to having reached Nirvana, they do not find much space in the mainstream media. Although Indian journalists do excellent work in digging up scams and scandals, they do not often question the broad consensus underpinning the ‘India shining’ image the media, politicians and big business work so hard at projecting.

I spent the other evening at the Karachi Boat Club in the company of a European who has spent a long time in the region, and knows South Asia well, having lived in Pakistan and India for several years. When I asked him how it felt to be back in Pakistan after being away for a few years in New Delhi, his answer came as a surprise. As we have known each other for fifteen years, he had no need to be polite: “It feels great to be back,” he replied. “You have no idea how difficult day-to-day life is in New Delhi. Apart from the awful traffic, the pollution, and the expense, you have to put up with the prickliness of most Indians you meet. They are touchy to the point of paranoia. There is a lot of very aggressive poverty in the air. And when the New Delhi airport opens, we’ll have to brace ourselves for yet another self-congratulatory blast. What is truly shocking is how little the well-off Indians care about the poor.”

“Here in Pakistan, people are so much more laid back. Karachi’s traffic flows much faster, and I don’t sense the same kind of anger. While I’m sure there must be slums, I do not see the same level of abject poverty that is ever-present in India. And of course, the food is much better here.”

I suspect this last observation will provoke more ire among my Indian readers than anything else my friend said. The truth is that meat dishes cooked in Pakistan are better than in India, although vegetables there are far tastier than ours. However, this article is not about scoring points, but about the different ways in which we react to criticism. It is also about the myth and the reality underlying the Indian success story.

And before my inbox is flooded with angry emails from across the border and the Indian diaspora, let me say that I am delighted at the huge strides our neighbour has made over the last decade or so. From cricket to technology, the progress has been little short of spectacular. I was thrilled to learn of the discovery of water on the moon by an Indian space mission.

So clearly, Indians have much to be proud of. Nevertheless, there is a dark side to this progress, and one that is ignored by those who react angrily to any criticism. In a recent article reflecting on his recently concluded six-year stint as the Guardian correspondent in India, Randeep Ramesh writes: “Whether I was visiting a rural police station where half-naked men were hung from the ceiling during an interrogation, or talking to the parents of a baby bulldozed to death during a slum clearance, the romance of India’s idealism was undone by its awful daily reality. The venality, mediocrity and indiscipline of its ruling class would be comical but for the fact that politicians appeared incapable of doing anything for the 836 million people who live on 25 pence [33 Pakistani rupees] a day.

“… India is perhaps the most unequal country on the planet, with a tiny elite engorged on the best education, biggest landholdings, and largest incomes. Those born on the bottom rungs of the social hierarchy suffer a legacy of caste bigotry, rural servitude and class discrimination…”

Many of these painful observations apply to Pakistan as well, but by and large, we accept these flaws, and do not react angrily when a foreigner points them out.

The current issue of The Economist carries a searing cover story about the shameful phenomenon of millions of aborted female foetuses, mainly in China and India. This has caused the male-female ratio to be skewed to an alarming extent. The number of male babies in India is now around 108 for 100 girls, raising the possibility of serious social consequences.

Indian civil society is acutely aware of these grave social issues, and many of its members have long been demanding change. However, their voices are often drowned out by the chorus of those shouting ‘India shining’. Many activists have distinguished themselves by their heroic advocacy of the downtrodden, but it is the success stories of dotcom entrepreneurs that are in the spotlight.

India’s soft power is a potent instrument of projecting the country’s image abroad. Its brilliant software engineers, its talented scientists, its outstanding cricketers, and its artists are all wonderful ambassadors for India. Bollywood and India’s appeal to millions of tourists have put the country firmly on the map as a highly desirable destination.

All in all, as I said earlier, Indians have much to be proud of. But by focusing only on their country’s achievements, the danger is that they will lose sight of the huge problems that still exist. Friends who point out these failings do not do so out of a sense of malice, but out of concern. However, as I brace myself for a volley of abuse, I fear that it’s often easier to shoot the messenger than to undertake the hard work needed to address the problems.

DAWN.COM | Columnists | Don?t shoot the messenger
 
When it becomes abundantly clear that "Shining India" is in fact quite lackluster in reality, the Indian hyper patriot netizens try to do what Irfan Husain calls "Shoot the Messenger".

Here's Husain's recent column on this subject:

Every now and then, I get an email from one irate Indian reader or another, demanding to know why Jawed Naqvi, Dawn’s erudite and irreverent New Delhi correspondent, is so critical of India. Invariably, I reply that they should ask Jawed about his views. I also point out that just as I am often critical about Pakistan, he has every right to point out his country’s shortcomings.

I suspect what upsets these readers is that an Indian should be voicing critical comments about his country in a foreign newspaper. I was subjected to similar censure from expatriate Pakistanis when I wrote for a Gulf daily. Finally, the editor told me politely that my criticism of Musharraf was incompatible with his paper’s policy, and that was the end of the (small) trickle of Dubai dirhams.

The reality is that we are all touchy about seeing our dirty linen washed in public, but somehow, Indians seem super-sensitive to any hint of criticism. While there are many dissenting voices that question Indian claims to having reached Nirvana, they do not find much space in the mainstream media. Although Indian journalists do excellent work in digging up scams and scandals, they do not often question the broad consensus underpinning the ‘India shining’ image the media, politicians and big business work so hard at projecting.

I spent the other evening at the Karachi Boat Club in the company of a European who has spent a long time in the region, and knows South Asia well, having lived in Pakistan and India for several years. When I asked him how it felt to be back in Pakistan after being away for a few years in New Delhi, his answer came as a surprise. As we have known each other for fifteen years, he had no need to be polite: “It feels great to be back,” he replied. “You have no idea how difficult day-to-day life is in New Delhi. Apart from the awful traffic, the pollution, and the expense, you have to put up with the prickliness of most Indians you meet. They are touchy to the point of paranoia. There is a lot of very aggressive poverty in the air. And when the New Delhi airport opens, we’ll have to brace ourselves for yet another self-congratulatory blast. What is truly shocking is how little the well-off Indians care about the poor.”

“Here in Pakistan, people are so much more laid back. Karachi’s traffic flows much faster, and I don’t sense the same kind of anger. While I’m sure there must be slums, I do not see the same level of abject poverty that is ever-present in India. And of course, the food is much better here.”

I suspect this last observation will provoke more ire among my Indian readers than anything else my friend said. The truth is that meat dishes cooked in Pakistan are better than in India, although vegetables there are far tastier than ours. However, this article is not about scoring points, but about the different ways in which we react to criticism. It is also about the myth and the reality underlying the Indian success story.

And before my inbox is flooded with angry emails from across the border and the Indian diaspora, let me say that I am delighted at the huge strides our neighbour has made over the last decade or so. From cricket to technology, the progress has been little short of spectacular. I was thrilled to learn of the discovery of water on the moon by an Indian space mission.

So clearly, Indians have much to be proud of. Nevertheless, there is a dark side to this progress, and one that is ignored by those who react angrily to any criticism. In a recent article reflecting on his recently concluded six-year stint as the Guardian correspondent in India, Randeep Ramesh writes: “Whether I was visiting a rural police station where half-naked men were hung from the ceiling during an interrogation, or talking to the parents of a baby bulldozed to death during a slum clearance, the romance of India’s idealism was undone by its awful daily reality. The venality, mediocrity and indiscipline of its ruling class would be comical but for the fact that politicians appeared incapable of doing anything for the 836 million people who live on 25 pence [33 Pakistani rupees] a day.

“… India is perhaps the most unequal country on the planet, with a tiny elite engorged on the best education, biggest landholdings, and largest incomes. Those born on the bottom rungs of the social hierarchy suffer a legacy of caste bigotry, rural servitude and class discrimination…”

Many of these painful observations apply to Pakistan as well, but by and large, we accept these flaws, and do not react angrily when a foreigner points them out.

The current issue of The Economist carries a searing cover story about the shameful phenomenon of millions of aborted female foetuses, mainly in China and India. This has caused the male-female ratio to be skewed to an alarming extent. The number of male babies in India is now around 108 for 100 girls, raising the possibility of serious social consequences.

Indian civil society is acutely aware of these grave social issues, and many of its members have long been demanding change. However, their voices are often drowned out by the chorus of those shouting ‘India shining’. Many activists have distinguished themselves by their heroic advocacy of the downtrodden, but it is the success stories of dotcom entrepreneurs that are in the spotlight.

India’s soft power is a potent instrument of projecting the country’s image abroad. Its brilliant software engineers, its talented scientists, its outstanding cricketers, and its artists are all wonderful ambassadors for India. Bollywood and India’s appeal to millions of tourists have put the country firmly on the map as a highly desirable destination.

All in all, as I said earlier, Indians have much to be proud of. But by focusing only on their country’s achievements, the danger is that they will lose sight of the huge problems that still exist. Friends who point out these failings do not do so out of a sense of malice, but out of concern. However, as I brace myself for a volley of abuse, I fear that it’s often easier to shoot the messenger than to undertake the hard work needed to address the problems.

DAWN.COM | Columnists | Don?t shoot the messenger

The way he words is and the way you word is hugely different. Yes dont shoot the messenger but that only applies when the messengers limits himself to just delivering the message. When the messenger starts offering opinions and gives out the wrong messages that is when we run into problems. Its not about what you say but how you say it. Ethics 101.The hardwork being reffered to in the article is being done and results will come. Poverty does not vanish with a wave of a wand. It takes time and The Indian Government is working at it. We do not need to be reminded of it by outsiders specially when their intentions are more harm than help.
 
Well bro i dont think so Pakistani Govt is a bullshit but not Pakistanis :azn:, let's assume Pakistan is a fail state so why still standing on the map of the earth?Specially while its traditional opponent inida is in power and now a days india have great attention of USA? Problem with Pakistan is that people has lack of national thought, unity and to some accent also suffering with external threats (who are interfering in agency areas, Baluchistan etc and i think u can understand these threats as well :azn: that who they are?). Well we have lack of leadership and unity not the resources etc. And m agreed that india is progressing and is on the way to progress more n more and whatever they are but indian political leadership is well educated and working for their country "M agreed that k politicians kuty ki dum hoty hain but still india has better leadership than Pakistan.":azn:

My reference was only to those who seem to specialise in trying to run down India in a very perverted show of schadenfreude and not to the many hardworking Pakistanis who are gamely trying to get on with the business of earning a living for themselves and their families.

I wish Pakistan well. My reasons are not completely altruistic, actually they are the opposite. My belief is that a Pakistan which is on path to progress will have little interest in risking that by getting into a confrontation with India. One very popular argument used in this forum is that India should be concerned in the event of any confrontation because it has something to lose while Pakistan does not. That is a very cynical, negative view of Pakistan and its place in the world. I wish for Pakistan to compete with India in every sphere imaginable not just in one. We can then compare what facilities we are providing our people rather than only pointing out each others inadequacies. In the end, what is that most of us want? I would think that a better future for ourselves and our families is our primary concern whether we are Indians or Pakistanis?

I wish the hardworking people of Pakistan the very best. Those who spend all their time in running down the achievements of others without accomplishing anything themselves deserve our collective contempt.
 
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When it becomes abundantly clear that "Shining India" is in fact quite lackluster in reality, the Indian hyper patriot netizens try to do what Irfan Husain calls "Shoot the Messenger".

Here's Husain's recent column on this subject:


DAWN.COM | Columnists | Don?t shoot the messenger

Down to anecdotal statements from DAWN ???:rofl:

Just to show the futility of such statements, here's one about pakistan from an India Daily


The Hindu Business Line : Pakistan: A failed economy?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pakistan is not yet a failed economy. But it can become one. This is not a prospect the world, especially India, can view with equanimity as the spillover will impact us badly.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The IMF estimates that GDP growth will drop to 1.9 per cent in 2009.

Santosh Kumar
Neha Malik


The escalating conflict in Pakistan between the army and Islamic militants has, once again, brought to the fore the question whether the country is a failed state. To bring clarity to the issue, it might be useful to keep political and security factors aside for the moment. There has been no dearth of doomsday scenarios but, going by the record, the Pakistani economy has been doing moderately well until recently.

Since the reforms at the beginning of this decade, GDP has grown at an average of 5 per cent from 2000-01 to 2008-09. The short- to medium-term prognosis is, however, not encouraging, post the financial crisis.

What is more worrisome is the structural fault lines in the economy which, unless addressed, do not bode well for the long-term future. Per capita income has also grown, albeit at a slower pace, owing to the high rate of population growth.

Agricultural production has more than kept pace with population increases, registering an average growth rate of 3 per cent. Having started from a narrow resource and manufacturing base, the modern sector comprising industry and services has gained salience and now accounts for over 72 per cent of the country’s GDP. This has brought about a large increase in the entrepreneurial and middle classes. The record, therefore, gives some credence to the claim of the latest Pakistani Economic Survey that the economy has done relatively well.

Any analysis based solely on Pakistani statistics can be misleading as they are often inconsistent and need to be seen in conjunction with figures provided by multilateral institutions. Confusion is further confounded by the large parallel economy that is not captured in official data.

global meltdown


The negative impact of the global financial crisis and the internal conflict on Pakistan’s economy is, of course, a more serious concern. The IMF estimates that GDP growth will drop to 1.9 per cent in 2009 and take half a decade to limp back to 5 per cent. Year-on-year CPI inflation has declined from 24.3 per cent in July 2008 to 11.2 per cent in July 2009 (State Bank of Pakistan). However, it still runs in double digits, thereby posing a threat to the growth prospects.

Further, the current account, after showing a surplus from 2001-04, has been in deficit since 2004-05 and stood at last financial year around $13.7 billion or 8.3 per cent of the GDP. Forex cover for imports, which fell to alarmingly low levels with the depletion of reserves by end-November 2008, stood at 2.9 months with a rise in the reserves to about $9.1 billion by end-June 2009, but mainly due to the IMF disbursements under the $7.6-billion programme approved in November 2008.

The short-term prospects for the Pakistan economy are, therefore, not entirely rosy.

Pronounced youth bulge


Foremost among the structural fault lines is the high (2.2 per cent) rate of growth in its population, which is leading to a pronounced youth bulge. Pressures on education, employment, housing, social services and public order will mount as a result. It is noteworthy that Pakistan’s expenditure budget is pre-empted largely by defence and debt servicing, leaving the physical and social infrastructure neglected.

At the same time, manpower outlets to the West and the Gulf are likely at best to remain unchanged, if not get further restricted. Pakistan’s challenge of managing its youth is, therefore, likely to become formidable and unless tackled successfully will tend to swell jihadi ranks. A high rate of urbanisation is a parallel trend that is likely to accentuate the problem. Migration trends indicate that Pakistan’s urban population, mainly youth, will go beyond 50 per cent of the total population by 2020.

Pakistan’s economy is dominated by about 50 families and the trickle-down effect is weak. Economic polarisation is reflected in regional imbalances and the high percentage of population below the poverty line.

Other areas of worry


Fragilities are also evident in Pakistan’s agricultural sector, which is likely to come under duress over the next decades due to land and water scarcity. In Punjab, Pakistan’s granary, cultivation intensity is reaching saturation point. Pakistani agriculture relies extensively on irrigation canals but the storage dams feeding them are beset by silting problems.

Water storage capacity is estimated to have been reduced to almost a quarter, while scope for construction of new storage dams in Pakistani territory is limited by topographical, political and financial considerations.

Pakistan is prone to running up large current account deficits, which pose yet another structural problem. Sluggish overseas markets are likely to accentuate it. The deficits are partly financed by non-debt creating inflows i.e. FDI and portfolio investments, which are expected to remain weak in future.

Dependence on debt-creating inflows is, therefore, likely to increase. It is worth noting that disbursement of official loans and grants to Pakistan have quadrupled from $0.878 billion in 2000-01 to $3.581 billion in 2007-08, reflecting the renewed western interest in the country after 9/11. The ratio of Pakistan’s external debt and liabilities to forex reserves, which had reached 19.3 in FY2000, dipped in subsequent years to around 3 as a result. But, it has again shown a rising trend in the last two years, reaching 5.1 by end March 2009.

Pakistan’s external debt and liabilities can become unsustainable in the future if foreign exchange reserves do not keep pace with debt servicing obligations.


At economic crossroads


Pakistan appears to be at an economic crossroads. It has the potential to revert to 5 per cent growth rate and even surpass the benchmark if short and long-term challenges are adequately addressed. The alternative is a steep downward descent. Much depends on the economic choices it makes but unfortunately also on exogenous political and strategic factors that are not entirely within its control. A case in point is a scenario of western aid drying up as a result of reduction in Pakistan strategic value in the event of loss of US interest in Afghanistan.

Pakistan is not yet a failed economy. To misquote Mark Twain, reports of its demise are exaggerated. But it can happen. This is not a prospect the world, especially India, can view with equanimity since the spill-over will impact us badly. How to reverse the process is, of course, a more than billion dollar question!

(Santosh Kumar is senior consultant and Neha Malik Research Assistant at ICRIER. blfeedback@thehindu.co.in)
 

Pakistan’s economy is dominated by about 50 families and the trickle-down effect is weak. Economic polarisation is reflected in regional imbalances and the high percentage of population below the poverty line.



These few lines make the entire piece suspect.

Pakistan is the most egalitarian economy in South Asia as measured by Gini index.

List of countries by income equality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pakistan 30.6

Bangladesh 33.4

India 36.8

Sri Lanks 50.0

You see neither the obscene wealth nor the abject poverty of India any where in Pakistan.

In spite of all of its problems, the percent of population living on less than $1.25 a day in Pakistan is less than half of India, according to the last report from UNDP last year.

And Pakistan doesn't define problem as less than 30 cents a day like India does. Poverty in Pakistan is defined as people living on less than $1.25 per capita.

Haq's Musings: UNDP Reports Pakistan Poverty Declined to 17%

The rest of the problems such as water, power, insurgencies etc all exist in India to the same or greater degree than in Pakistan.
 
Does India have direct democracy? Or is it a representative democracy that favors the corrupt and criminal incumbents in India's parliament, regardless of their party affiliations?

Do the majority Indians decide to be poor, hungry and illiterate? Is that so great about India?

Do you know that more than a third of Indian MPs are criminals?

Just prior to the vote on India-US nuke deal, the BBC reported as follows:

"Normally they (Six members of India's Parliament) are in jail, serving time for crimes ranging from extortion and kidnapping to murder. The Indian constitution allows them out on bail to attend important parliamentary votes. But the sight of convicted murderers entering the parliamentary chamber won't be the most edifying of spectacles."

This nexus of crime and politics in India developed in two stages - in the first stage, Indian politicians used criminal elements and gangsters to control polling stations and intimidate their rivals; this gave legitimacy to these people and they decided to contest elections for themselves rather than merely act as mussel men (baahubali) for other politicians. There are many examples of this pattern, such as Munna Shukla and Shahabudin in Bihar, Raju Bhaiyya in U.P and Arun Gawli of Mumbai.

Do you know that the Indian politicians are enriching themselves at the poor people's expense?

Most Indian politicians have used their election wins to significantly enrich themselves, according to their own pre-election declarations of assets. For example, the comparison of assets of candidates who won in 2004 and sought re-elections in 2009 shows that the wealth of UP politicians has grown by 559%, over five times, in five years, second only to their Karnataka counterparts who registered a growth of 693% in the same period, according to Sulekha.com.

Haq's Musings: Challenges of Indian Democracy

Haq's Musings: Is Indian Democracy Overrated?



Please Mr. Riaz Haq, don’t teach us Indians the meaning of democracy. No democracy is perfect, even the oldest democracy on the earth. If democracy is perfect, than I would say it should not be called a democracy. After all democracy is the supreme power that lies in the hands of the people, and people can be rational, irrational, educated, illiterate, poor, rich etc… , hence the diversity and different needs. The best part of a democracy is that flaws of a democracy bring out the best out of a democracy. Hence the joy
 
These few lines make the entire piece suspect.

Pakistan is the most egalitarian economy in South Asia as measured by Gini index.

List of countries by income equality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pakistan 30.6

Bangladesh 33.4

India 36.8

Sri Lanks 50.0

You see neither the obscene wealth nor the abject poverty of India any where in Pakistan.

In spite of all of its problems, the percent of population living on less than $1.25 a day in Pakistan is less than half of India, according to the last report from UNDP last year.

And Pakistan doesn't define problem as less than 30 cents a day like India does. Poverty in Pakistan is defined as people living on less than $1.25 per capita.

Haq's Musings: UNDP Reports Pakistan Poverty Declined to 17%

The rest of the problems such as water, power, insurgencies etc all exist in India to the same or greater degree than in Pakistan.


Gini coefficient is a statistical dispersion, and dispersion depend on the all the data that goes into calculating the variance. That is the reason why major economic publication don’t use Gini coefficient seriously, since data has strange behavior at times, especially when calculating aggregates for comparison

If I were you, I would rather depend on a random survey to explain the income inequalities rather than on Gini coefficient.

The only major use at present of Gini coefficient is to find out the difference between defaulting and non-defaulting clients in credit risk

For your information

Gini coefficient of USA is 46.6
Gini coefficient of Europe is 31

Please find some of the major disadvantages of Gini coefficient (Listed from Wikipedia)

The Gini coefficient of different sets of people cannot be averaged to obtain the Gini coefficient of all the people in the sets: if a Gini coefficient were to be calculated for each person it would always be zero. For a large, economically diverse country, a much higher coefficient will be calculated for the country as a whole than will be calculated for each of its regions.

The Lorenz curve may understate the actual amount of inequality if richer households are able to use income more efficiently than lower income households or vice versa. From another point of view, measured inequality may be the result of more or less efficient use of household incomes

Economies with similar incomes and Gini coefficients can still have very different income distributions. This is because the Lorenz curves can have different shapes and yet still yield the same Gini coefficient. For example a society where half of individuals had no income and the other half shared all the income equally would have the same Gini coefficient as one where 75% of people equally shared 25% of income while the remaining 25% equally shared 75%

It measures current income rather than lifetime income. A society in which everyone earned the same over a lifetime would appear unequal because of people at different stages in their life; a society in which students study rather than save can never have a coefficient of 0. However, Gini coefficient can also be calculated for any kind of distribution, e.g. for wealth.
 
ya they aren’t because they are only for screwed up minds. Your India bashing agenda is well known on this forum so anything form you has to be taken with a grain of salt. Speaking smart English and using clever one liners does not change the material of a post. I recommend you to stop with your India obsessed agenda, we have already had this discussion before. All replies posted here are against Riaz Haq and not you or Pakistan. So please don’t add fuel to the fire.
Yes, they seem to thrive on both sides of the border.
LoL, if half a dozen Indians are debating with one guy, that's legit but two Pakistani members is India bashing. Old habits die hard as it seems you too can't stay away from the odd poke.
 
Well you have just quoted 2 points. 1.) Aids 2.) Lack of toilets.

But when one says failed state it sums up merely everything. Understaned!!
 
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Well you have just quoted 2 points. 1.) Aids 2.) Lack of toilets.

But when one says failed state it sums up merely everything. Understaned!!

By being referred as Axis of evil, has the importance of Iran been effected in any way, more so for India......??
What really matters at the end of the day, is the ground reality.
By pointing at others, your own troubles seldom go away.
 
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