Compare performance of Indian-foreign weapon systems: DRDO

[sancho]

arjun is superior to t-90s in many fields and the only problem army says is that arjun is heavy.

Exactly and that's the key (although there are several more problems, otherwise we wouldn't have seen so many modifications in the MK2), since no matter if it has advantages in certain fields, it doesn't seem to fit to their operational policies. That is the key why IA might use it only in a certain areas where it can be useful, while the T90 can be used in a wider area. That happens when a product is developed without taking into account what the customer actually wants and needs and we can see this problem in several indigenous developments, just as all 3 forces are complaining about this problem!

The delivery gonna be smooth and timely manner if the end user planned and told the developer previously everything in a clear n crisp manner . Media is the best way now a days if u want ur bosses to listen you.

As mentioned above it's the otherway around, DRDO doesn't take the needs of the forces to accounts and develops things on their own account. Btw the forces uses the media too:

At the other end of the spectrum, the DRDO has often struggled for years at great expense to ‘reinvent the wheel’ when technology could have been acquired quickly and more economically from other sources. Time overruns and performance shortfalls in many of our indigenous programmes have led to upsets in our force planning process and created operational voids...
...An inherent conflict of interest arises from the fact that the DRDO tends to devote much greater resources to technology development and demonstration than to the urgent operational needs of the armed forces. This has often resulted in a mismatch between our critical needs and the priorities of DRDO; driving us towards the import option. There is obviously a need for much better alignment between the aims and objectives of DRDO and the operational missions of the armed forces. In 2004, the navy had drawn up, mainly for the benefit of DRDO, a 20-year Roadmap attempting to forecast the technology requirements that its operational commitments would demand in all three dimensions of maritime warfare. It would be appropriate for the DRDO to take such requirements into account and plan its budget outlay in consultation with the Service HQs.

Livefist: Admiral Arun Prakash on DRDO, Obsolesence and Self-Reliance

If we will think in this way we will never get rid of weapons import ...Look at China as an example , today china is producing quality stuff ( I agree not as good as US , France or Russia but they are nearby) , because their product was accepted and admired by CHINI army and CHINI people...They invested money heavily on RnD... And today they are getting result ... Today we have invested nothing in comparison with China...Even then we are good in Missile technology and other field we are picking up...I would like to conclude that DRDO is doing good , Just we need to support them as much as possible.

The usual myth about China and the comparison to India, with the usual blind believe that China did invest so heavily in indigenous developments because they wanted it, while the fact is, that China had no other option!
They have far less access to other techs and weapons and that's why they needed to develop things. If they had the chance to get foreign, maybe better stuff, they would prefer it too and NO they don't accept everything! If that would be true JF17 Block 2 and J10B would use the Chinese engines that were developed, but they are not and sticked with Russian engines, till the indigenous once are good enough!
And why are we picking up at missile technology? Because we have access to foreign techs, systems, partners...(Brahmos in various versions, Barak 8, Maitri SAM, CLGM...), advantages that China don't have and why they need to invest much more than we need!
Even with the huge investments, China is still largly dependent on Russia in core areas and we all know where most of their designs come from, but that again only shows that money alone can't counter the lack of know how and experience!
The most important point at Chinas defence investments is not the outcome they have today, since that is still behind of what Russia or the west can develop, but the huge amount of experience and know how they gather. Combined with their far more rational approach on developments and their excellent industrial capabilities, they will catch up fast and even will surpass most currently leading nations.
So if we want to learn something from them, then it's not that we need to spend more money, or just aim on indigenous developments only, but that we need a more realistic and simple approach in indigenous developments, use any chance to gain know how and experience (JV's co-developments, tech demo programs) and improve our industrial capabilities (offsets, ToT, inviting Indian privat players, making India to a manufacturing hub...)!

 

[sancho]

You have got good knowledge on air crafts,so keep your rantings out of tanks and other matters.Stick to your silly fighters and leave this thread alone Mr NRI (Non Required Indian).Don't venture into uncharted waters.

I suggest to read propperly, I didn't commented on the tank, but on the remark of the DRDO chief about a small weight difference or performance differences of their products. The weight difference of Arjun was just one example, but I could point out that Sudharshan has less range and a higher CEP than comparable foreign LGBs in IAF, that CLGM does not have the performance of LAHAT, that the DRDO AWACS radar is not on par with the current Erieye radar system from SAAB as it seems..., some of these shortfalls might be acceptable, but most of them are not fitting to the requirements of the forces. So DRDO as I "correctly" pointed out, should focus on delivering products in a useful manner and not on doing as if they would be a world class lab with high end products. They are not and they don't have to be for India, they "just" need to deliver the basic needs of our forces, to give us a broad base of indigenous products!

So before you get into conclusions and baseless accusations, read, understand and come up with some real arguments!

 

[sancho]

Why are our armed forces in such a hurry that they can't wait for DRDO work and rework on its machine's till they meet army's requirement.

You are kidding right? For how many years is IAF waiting now for LCA, an indigenous MMR, the Kaveri engine, indigenous weapons for their fighters...? Take the last point as an example! In 1999 during Kargil the IAF was operationally limited, when the foreign LGBs had flaws and only with Israeli help we were able to counter that. That showed how important an own basic weapon pack would be, to give IAF operational flexibility without being dependent on foreign countries, especially in war times!
But now we have 2014 and hopefully Sudarshan will be developed and available soon, but it took 15 years till DRDO was able to come up with a comparable bomb kit. Do you honestly say that's not enough time IAF had waited?

What about the 155mm howitzer that they now built based on the Bofors ToT, how many years did that needed and how bad is the effect of waiting all these years for an indigenous option? IAF was at least smart enough to procure foreign alternative LGBs to bridge the time till DRDO can actually deliver something comparable, IA on the otherside messed up all procurements, so they had neither an alternative nor an indigenous howitzer since years.

IN is supporting DRDO even with N-LCA, although they don't want or need it, but only to support indigenous developments and still get disappointed from them and instead of learning from the mistakes they made in N-LCA, they now make the same mistakes in AMCA again, by focusing only on a land based version. So what should IN think about that?

We have given DRDO way too much freedom and way too much credit, for way too less in return. They need to be cut back and focused on the needs of the forces, only then they will start to effectively gain provide our forces with the indigenous techs and weapons they need.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

You are kidding right? For how many years is IAF waiting now for LCA, an indigenous MMR, the Kaveri engine, indigenous weapons for their fighters...? Take the last point as an example! In 1999 during Kargil the IAF was operationally limited, when the foreign LGBs had flaws and only with Israeli help we were able to counter that. That showed how important an own basic weapon pack would be, to give IAF operational flexibility without being dependent on foreign countries, especially in war times!
But now we have 2014 and hopefully Sudarshan will be developed and available soon, but it took 15 years till DRDO was able to come up with a comparable bomb kit. Do you honestly say that's not enough time IAF had waited?

What about the 155mm howitzer that they now built based on the Bofors ToT, how many years did that needed and how bad is the effect of waiting all these years for an indigenous option? IAF was at least smart enough to procure foreign alternative LGBs to bridge the time till DRDO can actually deliver something comparable, IA on the otherside messed up all procurements, so they had neither an alternative nor an indigenous howitzer since years.

IN is supporting DRDO even with N-LCA, although they don't want or need it, but only to support indigenous developments and still get disappointed from them and instead of learning from the mistakes they made in N-LCA, they now make the same mistakes in AMCA again, by focusing only on a land based version. So what should IN think about that?

We have given DRDO way too much freedom and way too much credit, for way too less in return. They need to be cut back and focused on the needs of the forces, only then they will start to effectively gain provide our forces with the indigenous techs and weapons they need.

You don't understand the problem do you? After "waiting" 15 years and buying foreign alternatives only "to bridge the time", how many Sudarshan kits have been ordered? 50 if I am not wrong. Do understand that these weapons require specialized equipment to manufacture which itself is costly. The manufacturer sets up all the infrastructure and then IAF orders only 50. These small orders are not enough to cover the investment. Therefore the manufacturer makes a net loss/minimal profits on such indigenous products. Therefore he has not incentive to pay for further R&D of these products.

Take any example you have mentioned? How many LCA ordered? 40 only. Rest are planned. Which still won't justify the huge investment that has gone into developing it. Same will be done for AMCA since IAF will already empty its coffers on FGFA. Then you can again blame DRDO. Look at how many Howitzers or Arjuns or NAG or any domestic weapons these guys have ordered. Then again the question comes if the indigenous equipment is not good enough then why order it? My answer to that will be if Pakistan and China can do it, why can't we? If China can produce hordes of J10A and push it down their forces, why shouldn't we do the same for LCA, why should we always wait for the next time?

 

[sancho]

You don't understand the problem do you? After "waiting" 15 years and buying foreign alternatives only "to bridge the time", how many Sudarshan kits have been ordered? 50 if I am not wrong.

LOL, first you complain that they can't wait and now when you see the fact, you turn to ordered numbers? You can't order something in high ammounts when it's not fully develped and tested yet. When the development phase is over, more orders will come for sure, since it will be integrated and used in nearly all IAF and IN fighters, which means 1000s will be ordered in different weight classes, but first you need to have the product available.

How many LCA ordered? 40 only.

Not 40 only, but 40 despite the fact that it doesn't fit IAFs requirements in all fields! That rather tells you that they support the LCA development and not that they limit it. They also want 80 x MK2 versions for sure, but that again depends on when that version will be available and if it fits the requirements.

If China can produce hordes of J10A and push it down their forces, why shouldn't we do the same for LCA, why should we always wait for the next time?

Because J10A was successfully developed - LCA isn't so far
Because J10A met the requirements of their customers - LCA doesn't
Because J10A offers a complete indigenous weapon pack - LCA does't

You name it, it all ends up at the same point, DRDO! Because it's the development side that is the problem in India, not the customer side.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

LOL, first you complain that they can't wait and now when you see the fact, you turn to ordered numbers?

I still maintain that they can't wait. Which is why highlighted the phrase "only to bridge the time". It was a sarcasm which you could not pick up. The forces maintain a outward appearance of bridging the gap till the product is being developed, and when the product finally gets developed, they are saying they have already bought too many foreign pieces. Thats what happened with Arjun.

You can't order something in high ammounts when it's not fully develped and tested yet. When the development phase is over, more orders will come for sure, since it will be integrated and used in nearly all IAF and IN fighters, which means 1000s will be ordered in different weight classes, but first you need to have the product available.

Tell that to the manufacturers who have to setup expensive production lines. Do you think they will get any funding if they tell their investors what you are just telling me? Hey dude give me 100 million dollars. I promise you IAF will order more of these bombs. The problem is you simply don't understand the system. And you can't even question your beliefs. Foreign forces commit to buy their own or fund the R&D at their own expense, which minimizes the risk of party doing R&D. Our forces and ministry doesn't provide any such support.

Not 40 only, but 40 despite the fact that it doesn't fit IAFs requirements in all fields! That rather tells you that they support the LCA development and not that they limit it. They also want 80 x MK2 versions for sure, but that again depends on when that version will be available and if it fits the requirements.

If they want 80Mk2 why not order them? By the way even 80 is way too less. Notwithstanding that right now DRDO is developing Mk2 with no guarantee from the buyer. No private organization will work this way. And thats how the forces' procurement policies are keeping the R&D suppressed.

Because J10A was successfully developed - LCA isn't so far
Because J10A met the requirements of their customers - LCA doesn't
Because J10A offers a complete indigenous weapon pack - LCA does't

How do you know that PLAAF did not already commit to buying J10A before it was developed? How do you know that it met the requirements? Just because PLAAF bought it? Right. An indigenous weapons pack was never a requirement for the LCA project. It will be developed in due course. If IAF wanted it, they should have mentioned so beforehand.

 

[Omega007]

I suggest to read propperly, I didn't commented on the tank, but on the remark of the DRDO chief about a small weight difference or performance differences of their products. The weight difference of Arjun was just one example, but I could point out that Sudharshan has less range and a higher CEP than comparable foreign LGBs in IAF, that CLGM does not have the performance of LAHAT, that the DRDO AWACS radar is not on par with the current Erieye radar system from SAAB as it seems..., some of these shortfalls might be acceptable, but most of them are not fitting to the requirements of the forces. So DRDO as I "correctly" pointed out, should focus on delivering products in a useful manner and not on doing as if they would be a world class lab with high end products. They are not and they don't have to be for India, they "just" need to deliver the basic needs of our forces, to give us a broad base of indigenous products!

So before you get into conclusions and baseless accusations, read, understand and come up with some real arguments!

His argument was not to be taken literally.And as for why I told you to stay out is for your lack of knowledge and understanding in this matter.

For example,you said,"
since no matter if it has
advantages in certain
fields, it doesn't seem to
fit to their operational
policies. That is the key
why IA might use it only in
a certain areas where it
can be useful, while the
T90 can be used in a wider
area. That happens when
a product is developed
without taking into
account what the
customer actually wants
and needs and we can see
this problem in several
indigenous developments,
just as all 3 forces are
complaining about this
problem!" - SERIOUSLY??!!Where did you manage pull out such a huge pile of horse shit from??Your rear I assume.

Not made as per army's requirements!!Oh really??Did you read the GSQR submitted by IA??Do you even know that at the start Arjun was to be a 45 ton tank but midway in the development process, when the Pakistanis decided to go for the M1A1,the IA quickly changed their requirements and redrafted the GSQR.It was the IA that wanted the Arjun to be able to go toe to toe and head to head against the export model M1A1s in terms of armor protection,firepower,mobility and crew safety with isolated fuel and ammunition compartments with a four men crew.
Do you seriously believe that all these can be achieved under 50+ ton without sacrificing armor protection??If so,then either you need to go back to the kindergartens or consult a psychiatrist.

Then,what was that about Indian Army using Arjuns only in certain terrain??Seriously!!Do you even know that Arjun mkI has got lower ground pressure than the T 90S??So it's actually the other way round!!Arjuns can easily run on such terrains where a T 90S would get bogged down.

What more should I tell,you based your entire post on what can be said as from half truths to outright false acquisitions.You never ever fail to amuse me by pretending to be the know all smartarse but in fact in many cases like this one,you are dead wrong.You think you are the Gospel of pdf,but sorry to burst your bubble,you're not.

That is why I told you to stick to your strong point or at least educate yourself on the other fields if you must to debate.

 

[sancho]

The forces maintain a outward appearance of bridging the gap till the product is being developed, and when the product finally gets developed, they are saying they have already bought too many foreign pieces. Thats what happened with Arjun.

Arjun doesn't fit the IA operational policies to use it all over India, that's why they are procuring additional once, but only for the use at the western borders, while the T90 can be operated at north eastern borders too.
One can discuss now if their operational policy is correct, but more interestingly would be, why DRDO did not include that in the development of Arjun from the start? Why they didn't developed a modern indigenous alternative in the line of T72s and T90s, rather than aiming on a big and heavy MBT more comparable ot western tanks in size and weight. Now, they are proposing FMBT, which is meant to be lighter and more suitable to IA's operational needs, but does that help Arjun?

Tell that to the manufacturers who have to setup expensive production lines.

Who? DRDO is not the manufacturer, they are the developer! The manufacturing part will be diverted to other companies and when why don't you look abroad here as well? Sweden has only ordered a total number of Gripen, that IAF and IN now have pretty much on order too (HAL states 188 x fixed LCA orders). So where are the complaints from Saab about that? The fact is, the orders of the prime customer were the base to gain exports too, but since DRDO delayed LCA, delivery to the prime customers are delayed too and so will potential export sales.
=> which again shows that the development side is the problem!!!

Do you think they will get any funding if they tell their investors what you are just telling me?

Their investors are the Indian forces, the biggest market for them, with the highest needs. So all they actually need to do is, to come up with a useful product, that is aimed on this customers, but that is not what DRDO wants. They want to do it their own way, want to be world class and export, ignoring the fact that here again, you first need a product to export. They showcased LCA and DRDO AWACS in Bharain, although both are not fully developed yet, although they are not inducted into operational service in Indian forces.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

Arjun doesn't fit the IA operational policies to use it all over India, that's why they are procuring additional once, but only for the use at the western borders, while the T90 can be operated at north eastern borders too.
One can discuss now if their operational policy is correct, but more interestingly would be, why DRDO did not include that in the development of Arjun from the start? Why they didn't developed a modern indigenous alternative in the line of T72s and T90s, rather than aiming on a big and heavy MBT more comparable ot western tanks in size and weight. Now, they are proposing FMBT, which is meant to be lighter and more suitable to IA's operational needs, but does that help Arjun?

If you are proposing that army always wanted a medium weight MBT and DRDO scientists were too stupid to understand their requirements and somehow developed a much heavier MBT, I don't know what else to say to you. At least stick to logic. DRDO doesn't work in vaccum. Army knew what it was developing for years. If they had any problems, they would have let DRDO know that it is on the wrong path.

Who? DRDO is not the manufacturer, they are the developer!

Yes but if the final manufacturer doesn't earn profits its incentive to invest further in the sector diminish. And profits will only come if produced numbers are higher. Is this so hard to understand? If you are proposing that DRDO will not be affected by these think again. Look at how CAG audited DRDO. Where the criteria was how many products developed by DRDO are actually being used by armed forces. Not to mention that now R&D needs to be taken by the private sector because the current budget of DRDO is simply not enough. But that won't happen cos of reasons already mentioned earlier.

Sweden has only ordered a total number of Gripen, that IAF and IN now have pretty much on order too (HAL states 188 x fixed LCA orders). So where are the complaints from Saab about that? The fact is, the orders of the prime customer were the base to gain exports too, but since DRDO delayed LCA, delivery to the prime customers are delayed too and so will potential export sales.
=> which again shows that the development side is the problem!!!

IAF has promised to order those numbers. Not actually ordered. There is a difference between the two. Anyways the final number is itself too small. HAL has to invest thousands of crores in the new production line, if they can't earn profit on LCA project. It will be the same story again. Delays happen everywhere, you deal with it. F22 and F35 were both delayed. Has the US cut down on any orders due to that?

Their investors are the Indian forces, the biggest market for them, with the highest needs. So all they actually need to do is, to come up with a useful product, that is aimed on this customers, but that is not what DRDO wants. They want to do it their own way, want to be world class and export, ignoring the fact that here again, you first need a product to export. They showcased LCA and DRDO AWACS in Bharain, although both are not fully developed yet, although they are not inducted into operational service in Indian forces.

Pick and dictionary and read the meaning of the word "investors". Investors mean people who be investing in the production lines of these weapons. Most of the investors are government entities, some are private. Either way, till you don't show orders to them no one will give you money. Thats how it works. It seems that you are an engineer who has no knowledge of how the business side works. Go and setup a power plant and you will be amazed by the number of documents you have to produce. You have to give everything from LoA for fuel to SPA for power, land agreements, all the permits. Without producing all that, you don't get any funding.

Similarly, till you show confirmed orders, you won't get a penny to setup a production line. But what IAF does is you produce first and then we will give you orders. Thats why the whole sector is in such a jeopardy.

 

[sancho]

Yes but if the final manufacturer doesn't earn profits its incentive to invest further in the sector diminish. And profits will only come if produced numbers are higher. Is this so hard to understand?

Just that it's not important for the customer how much profits the manufacturer gets, what's important to him is, timely delivery in the required quality. If that is provided more orders will follow and as stated, HAL has orders for 188 x LCAs including prototypes and naval versions. So orders are not the issue, but WHEN LCA will be ready and in what QUALITY?
If LCA were available as initially promised and planed by DRDO, we already would have several squads in operational service wouldn't we? Which would lead to a higher total order right? So blaming the customer not "properly" ordering more numbers of a product that is neither developed, nor according to the requirements, to justify the problems of DRDO makes no sense.

IAF has promised to order those numbers. Not actually ordered. There is a difference between the two.

You mean like promising a product but not delivering it? 100% agree, there is a difference, just that IAF already ordered the engines for the MK1 and MK2 fighters they "promised" to order, while DRDO is still far away from delivering their promises isn't it?

Delays happen everywhere, you deal with it. Has the US cut down on any orders due to that?

I suggest to check how many F22 they initially wanted and in LCAs case dealing with it means, the longer the delivery is delayed, the lower the potential order, so our forces would not do something different compared to other customers.

Most of the investors are government entities

Exactly and for whom are the government investing this money for the forces! HAL did got money to set up LCA / MMRCA production facilities before the orders were made, IAF and IN invested millions into the development and production of the prototypes. But all this doesn't explain why DRDO can't deliver the product right? Just as it doesn't explain why Saab was ok with similar orders (also over several years, not from the start), while you claim that's a problem for DRDO or HAL.

The fact remains, that DRDO that is responsible for the development and as long as they don't finish it, IAF can't order more, nor could HAL produce more.

 

[GORKHALI]

Arjun doesn't fit the IA operational policies to use it all over India, that's why they are procuring additional once, but only for the use at the western borders, while the T90 can be operated at north eastern borders too.
One can discuss now if their operational policy is correct, but more interestingly would be, why DRDO did not include that in the development of Arjun from the start? Why they didn't developed a modern indigenous alternative in the line of T72s and T90s, rather than aiming on a big and heavy MBT more comparable ot western tanks in size and weight. Now, they are proposing FMBT, which is meant to be lighter and more suitable to IA's operational needs, but does that help Arjun?


Who? DRDO is not the manufacturer, they are the developer! The manufacturing part will be diverted to other companies and when why don't you look abroad here as well? Sweden has only ordered a total number of Gripen, that IAF and IN now have pretty much on order too (HAL states 188 x fixed LCA orders). So where are the complaints from Saab about that? The fact is, the orders of the prime customer were the base to gain exports too, but since DRDO delayed LCA, delivery to the prime customers are delayed too and so will potential export sales.
=> which again shows that the development side is the problem!!!


Their investors are the Indian forces, the biggest market for them, with the highest needs. So all they actually need to do is, to come up with a useful product, that is aimed on this customers, but that is not what DRDO wants. They want to do it their own way, want to be world class and export, ignoring the fact that here again, you first need a product to export. They showcased LCA and DRDO AWACS in Bharain, although both are not fully developed yet, although they are not inducted into operational service in Indian forces.

While the T90 can be operated at north eastern borders too.Wrong in north east even T90S can't move in narrow roads.One of the reason why IA issued tender for 300Light tanks

Heavy tanks face problems in mobility as narrow and spiralling roads make their movement very slow and the bridges there are also not built to bear heavy load of above 40-45 tonnes, they said.

Indian army planning to deploy light tanks on China border | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

They want to do it their own way, want to be world class and export, ignoring the fact that here again, you first need a product to export. They showcased LCA and DRDO AWACS in Bharain, although both are not fully developed yet, although they are not inducted into operational service in Indian forces. This is how marketing is been done,both are in the advance stages of induction,the GSQR requirement which has been asked by Indian forces may not for every other forces .IAF Mig 21 inducted with heat blower which was soviet need as per their condition but we need air-condition.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

Just that it's not important for the customer how much profits the manufacturer gets, what's important to him is, timely delivery in the required quality.

No, you are wrong again. It is always important for customers to keep profits of manufacturer in mind. Without that, the sector cannot exist. That is exactly why whenever governments tender ANY big contracts, in any sector, they always promise a minimum rate of return to the potential bidders. If the manufacturer doesn't stand to earn profits, he will close his business and you are back to imports.

If that is provided more orders will follow and as stated, HAL has orders for 188 x LCAs including prototypes and naval versions. So orders are not the issue, but WHEN LCA will be ready and in what QUALITY?
If LCA were available as initially promised and planed by DRDO, we already would have several squads in operational service wouldn't we?

Orders are an issue. 188 orders are too less. HAL is not going to earn a profit on LCA project. Which is exactly why they had to beg Antony for 1500 crore for setting up the LCA production line. If the venture was profitable, banks would have lined up to fund it.

You mean like promising a product but not delivering it? 100% agree, there is a difference, just that IAF already ordered the engines for the MK1 and MK2 fighters they "promised" to order, while DRDO is still far away from delivering their promises isn't it?

Exactly, IAF lost no time in ordering foreign engines, but are taking their sweet time in ordering the indigenous fighters for which those engines are in the first place. A very clear example of hypocrisy.

I suggest to check how many F22 they initially wanted and in LCAs case dealing with it means, the longer the delivery is delayed, the lower the potential order, so our forces would not do something different compared to other customers.

Everyone knows that F22 orders were cut down due to its exorbitant cost and the fact that a 5th gen competitor was not expected from Russia or China. Not because of delays. And since we are on F22, do you think it lacks HMS cueing by design? Every large product like this has some failures. But US still supported it because it was their own. If F22 also had to go through a long cycle like LCA is going, the project would have been dead.

Exactly and for whom are the government investing this money for the forces! HAL did got money to set up LCA / MMRCA production facilities before the orders were made

Really where are you getting this?
Rs 1,500 cr more for combat aircraft Tejas as HAL fails to meet targets | Business Standard News
The above news is from Dec 2012. HAL did not get any money till about an year later. They had to beg Antony for this. If IAF had already given them 300 orders, this situation never would have come. And now the Tejas productions get delayed by an year. Thats is the problem I am talking about.

But all this doesn't explain why DRDO can't deliver the product right? Just as it doesn't explain why Saab was ok with similar orders (also over several years, not from the start), while you claim that's a problem for DRDO or HAL.

Saab was Ok because the number ordered was enough for them to make profits. When Switzerland decided to review their Gripen NG orders, the whole future of Gripen NG was thrown into question. Thats how things work, you can't develop stuff till you have confirmed orders.

The fact remains, that DRDO that is responsible for the development and as long as they don't finish it, IAF can't order more, nor could HAL produce more.

Orders come before development and not the opposite. It will be better if you understand this.

 

[NEPALESE GURKHA]

It should never compare domestic weapon with foreign imported 1 because

1 it saves money
2 it provides job opportunity
3 it strengthens nation capacity
4 it inspires youth to innovate new products
5 it provides moral confidence to achieve everything
6 it certainly ensure supply during war coz no forgien sanction can effect u
7 it can boost your economy by selling your products to international market and creat domestic jobs
8 it ........................................................................................................................................................................................

 

[Omega007]

@sancho ,Turkish Army placed an order of a thousand Altay MBTs even before formal commencement of development!!That's how things work around the world.

 

[NEPALESE GURKHA]

The only known problem with Arjun 2 tank is its size which cannot let it move easily on trains so let it be along front line with pakistan where u dont need to move much often.