Compare performance of Indian-foreign weapon systems: DRDO

[gslv mk3]

@Omega007

 

[he-man]

This moronoster thinks making an unstable fly by wire plane is cake walk.

sure it is when u consider the manpower of drdo/hal and their associated labs,,its not such a huge issue as u are making it out to be.

if u consider that a huge thing then i don't know what u will feel when we actually make something cutting edge which we won't untill drdo/hal call the shots.

so untill then keep on getting high and considering the fly by wire as a cutting edge tech

 

[gslv mk3]

good for u,,,keep living in denial.
i don't care,but majority of tejas is imported with almost 100% critical systems imported.

we have made maybe a rwr,a mission computer,a jet starter and thats probably it.
almost whole of ecm,radar,mfd's,jammers,engine are imported.

we can't make a stupid mechanical slotted array when other nations have moved on to GaA Aesas and in 10 years will move on to GaN aesas but brainwashed fanboy like u will still worship drdo/hal for ruining everything.

Early proposals & wind tunnel models...

And finally...

F-16 VISTA(Variable In-flight Stability Test Aircraft) simulator in the U.S. in July 1996, with 33 test flights being carried out. However, Lockheed Martin's involvement was terminated in 1998 as part of an embargo enacted by the U.S. in response to India's second nuclear tests in May of that year.
Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: The Iron Bird Team: A Tejas story never told before!

Now the Multi Mode Radar

HAL's Hyderabad division and the LRDE were selected to jointly lead the MMR program and the radar development effort began in 1997.

The DRDO's Centre for Airborne System (CABS) is responsible for running the test programme for the MMR. Between 1996 and 1997, CABS converted the surviving HAL/HS-748M Airborne Surveillance Post (ASP) testbed into a testbed for the avionics and radar of the LCA.

The coherent pulse-Doppler Multi Mode Radar is designed to operate equally effectively in the Air to Air and Air to Surface domains. Jointly developed as an Indian – Israeli venture, it features multi-target Air to Air Track, Hi Resolution Synthetic Aperture Mapping and specialized Air to Sea modes. The radar facilitates all weather employment of a variety of Air to Air and Air to Surface Weaponry, and is the primary targeting sensor on the Tejas.

​

EW Suite

The electronic warfare suite is designed to enhance the survivability during deep penetration and combat. The LCA's EW suite is developed by theDefence Avionics Research Establishment(DARE) with support from the Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL). This EW suite, known as Mayavi, includes a radar warning receiver (RWR), Missile Approach Warning (MAW) and a Laser warning receiver (LWR) system, self-protection jammer, laser warning system, and chaff/flare dispenser

Avionics

Open Architecture Computer (OAC) designed and developed by ADA, combines the functions of earlier mission computer, display processor, video switching unit and mission preparation and retrieval unit. It is designed based on open system interfaces standards, which provides interoperability, scalability, and portability. OAC drives three multi-function displays, HUD and the helmet-mounted display. This open architecture design will allow the designers to continuously adapt and upgrade Tejas to meet the challenges of modern warfare.​

Cockpit

The cockpit has two 76mm×76mm colour liquid crystal multifunction displays developed by Bharat Electronics, a head up display developed by the government-owned Central Scientific Instruments Organisation (CSIO) in Chandigarh, a liquid crystal return-to-home-base panel and keyboard. The pilot also has a helmet-mounted display and sight (HMDS). The hands on throttle and stick control system minimizes pilot workload and maximizes situational awareness.

The Airframe-Composites

The Tejas employs CFC materials for up to 45% of its airframe, including in the fuselage (doors and skins), wings (skin, spars and ribs), elevons, tailfin, rudder, air brakes and landing gear doors. Composites are used to make an aircraft both lighter and stronger at the same time compared to an all-metal design, and the LCA's percentage employment of CFCs is one of the highest among contemporary aircraft of its class. Apart from making the plane much lighter, there are also fewer joints or rivets, which increases the aircraft's reliability and lowers its susceptibility to structural fatigue cracks.



The tailfin for the LCA is a monolithic honeycomb piece, an approach which reduced its manufacturing cost by 80% compared to the customary "subtractive" or "deductive" method, whereby the shaft is carved out of a block of titanium alloy by a computerised numerically controlled machine. No other manufacturer is known to have made fins out of a single piece.

The use of composites in the LCA resulted in a 40% reduction in the total number of parts compared to using a metallic frame. Furthermore, the number of fasteners has been reduced by half in the composite structure from the 10,000 that would have been required in a metallic frame design. The composite design also helped to avoid about 2,000 holes being drilled into the airframe. Overall, the aircraft's weight is lowered by 21%.​

There are also Mechanical Systems developed indigenously

GTSU 110

A Jet Fuel Starter has been designed and developed by Engine Division of HAL, Bangalore, especially to start the engine of Tejas on ground and in the air. Design optimisation of rotating elements and shaft has been achieved by use of 3-D modelling, dynamic and stress analysis software to reduce weight of the JFS with the safe margin for shaft critical speed and element's resonance frequency as well as to reduce vibration and noise levels.

Salient Features

Type : Free turbine type
Power output : 110 kW
Max. speed : 50500 rpm
Compressor PR : 3.5
Turbine inlet temp : 1150 K
Weight : 50 kg
Fuel : JET A-1/DERD 2494/F-35/IS 1571-85 or
JP-5


Aircraft-Mounted Accessories Gearbox

An Aircraft-Mounted Accessories Gearbox (AMAGB) has been designed and developed for Tejas. It is a lightweight, single-input, multi-output gearbox, which takes its input drive from engine through a power take off shaft at a rated speed of 16810 rpm. AMAGB has a high power-to-weight ratio and a self-contained lubrication system. It carries four aircraft accessories on its output pads, viz., two hydraulic pumps (60 kW @ 6000 rpm each), one generator (40 kW @ 7950 rpm), and one starter unit. Together, these cater to a major part of hydraulic and electrical power requirements of the Tejas and hence forms a crucial part of its secondary power system.

Salient Features
Power plant : GE-F404-F2J3/Kaveri
Power transmission : 185 kW (250 hp)
Speed : 16810 rpm
Weight : 34.4 kg
Overall dimension : 720 mm (L) x 450 mm (H) x 120 mm (W)

Carbon-Carbon Brake Discs

Carbon-Carbon Brake Discs have been designed and developed by DRDO especially for Tejas. These discs provide drag, absorb kinetic energy of the aircraft by converting it into heat and hold the aircraft stationary against engine thrust.

Not to mention,the Landing gear developed for both Airforce & Navy Versions

​

 

[gslv mk3]

Actuators,Sensors developed indigenously

ILSS

Avionics

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[he-man]

Early proposals & wind tunnel models...

And finally...

F-16 VISTA(Variable In-flight Stability Test Aircraft) simulator in the U.S. in July 1996, with 33 test flights being carried out. However, Lockheed Martin's involvement was terminated in 1998 as part of an embargo enacted by the U.S. in response to India's second nuclear tests in May of that year.
Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: The Iron Bird Team: A Tejas story never told before!

Now the Multi Mode Radar

​

EW Suite

​

Avionics




Cockpit

​

The Airframe-Composites


There are also Mechanical Systems developed indigenously

​

do u think i need to know the details from u??
i have posted more hardware details than u man and there is nothing which is remotely cutting edge in tejas developed by us.

we can't even make our own mfd's for god's sake without tying up with elbit!!
what about ejection seats??

comeon man,,,think logically,what has drdo/hal contributed indigenously in this?

 

[Bhasad Singh Mundi]

sure it is when u consider the manpower of drdo/hal and their associated labs,,its not such a huge issue as u are making it out to be.

if u consider that a huge thing then i don't know what u will feel when we actually make something cutting edge which we won't untill drdo/hal call the shots.

So as per you making a fly by wire unstable plane is not cutting edge. Kindly enlighten me then what technology is being used for making an unstable plane a stable plane?
Find out how much R&D investment goes into developing the tech in west. You should not use all you holes to fart

 

[gslv mk3]

do u think i need to know the details from u??
i have posted more hardware details than u man and there is nothing which is remotely cutting edge in tejas developed by us.

we can't even make our own mfd's for god's sake without tying up with elbit!!
what about ejection seats??

comeon man,,,think logically,what has drdo/hal contributed indigenously in this?

Samtel makes MFDs uon its own.Nearly all aircrafts using Martin Baker Ejection seats.

 

[Omega007]

OOPS @gslv mk3 ,looks like I missed the party!!There is definitely something wrong with pdf lately,I didn't get any notification for you mentioning me!!Sorry dude.But you fought extremely well,heck you whooped his @rse and didn't even need me.

 

[gslv mk3]

OOPS @gslv mk3 ,looks like I missed the party!!There is definitely something wrong with pdf lately,I didn't get any notification for you mentioning me!!Sorry dude.But you fought extremely well,heck you didn't even need me.

It was real fun bro...

 

[Omega007]

It was real fun bro...

I know,just like the good old days. But I missed the fun .Damn notification!!

 

[halupridol]

what sort of data do u want man??
there is a reason arjun is not being inducted in large numbers and no,,,it is not corruption.

There are indeed problems in the platform and apart from rajastan desert area it cannot be used anywhere due to the weight,,,it just cannot.
Now u will say we will build up the infrastructure for that but army is not interested in making different wagons etc for 2 different tanks when it has already decided than t-90s will be its back bone for the forseable future,,,we simply don't have that much money mate.

The problem is also that we even in this defence forum are considering arjun as an indigenous product when in reality it isn't............so unless there is compelling performance improvement after being 15-20 tonnes heavier than t-90s army will not order more arjuns no matter what anyone says here.


where we went wrong

Drdo should have focussed on the subsystems of the tank first trying to develop indigenous stuff to fit on to older t-72 and t-90 thus gaining some experience,,,,u have to start somewhere and not just start developing a tank out of nothing just like tejas!!

Can we modernize even t-72 without russian help??no
Can we fix su-30 mki issues of mfd displays and software problems without russia?no
Has tejas been inducted??no
Can we make the seekers of pdv ourselves??no
Can we male radome of tejas ourselves??no
Can we make a simple radar for tejas??no
Can we make a simple mfd without tying up with a foreign vendor??no
Do we have a facility to make advanced chipsets in india??no
Can we make an advanced aesa without importing t/r modules??no

Is kaveri dead??absolutely
Is ijt dead??absolutely

We have committed mistakes like no other country,,,drdo/hal/ofb have taken us for a ride for a long time now,,,i am unwilling to see that trend continue otherwise we are fucked in the future.

Thats the only reason i support fdi in defence as i am convinced drdo/hal/ofb combo can deliver nothing cutting edge


Now if someone is hurt on my writing,,,please don't use stupid words to counter me and thing why are we where we are??
If israel being a country of 7 million can do 1000 times better than us then whats wrong??

1)we indians are dumb
2)drdo/hal/ofb has been responsible for half this mess
So there are only 2 options,,,,,and i refuse to believe indians are dumb but if u guys are still supporting drdo/hal/ofb then u are ultimately agreeing to the fact that we are dumb and can do no better.



decide for urself



I wrote this last year that foc and ultimately production of lca will suffer and HAL/DRDO combo were bluffing and fooling everyone into believing that forces are responsible for slow induction when anyone with even an iota of brain knows that we are no where near a functional point defence fighter.

All the tejas mk1 will be used(40) for mainly training purposes,,thats how the things are and still people on this forum think otherwise??
I agree i don't know whats the solution but the problem is right in front of us

Old article,,,2 years old but pretty relevant even today as not much has changed.

Some mistakes are there like we make fire control system of arjun mk2 now,,,it mentions mk1 as mk2 was not out then.


DRDO India's lumbering dinosaur

India has emerged as the largest arms importer in the world. More than 70% of the needs of the Indian armed forces are imported and Indian weapons purchases account for about 9% of the global arms trade. Each time a weapon system is imported, the costs are astronomical and we get trapped into expensive service contracts, ammunition purchase, potential possible arms embargos etc. During the years 2007-2012 contracts for approximately 50 Billion dollars worth of weapons have been signed.

DRDO was established in 1958 to indigenize defense weapon production. Yet after more than 34 years, it has embarrassingly little to show for itself. The CAG reports that 70% of the products that DRDO produces are rejected by the armed forces. Others are delayed for decades. Some of the more notable delays are

# Arjun-Main Battle Tank- 40 year development. End product is 50% overweight and the heart of the system, the fire control system has been developed by Elbit systems in Israel

# LCA-Tejas- 30 year development. Still in flight tests. Only the control system and airframe are indigenous. All other components including the ejection seat are imported.

# Nag-Anti tank missile- 30 year delay. Failed user trials as late as last month

# Trishul-Anti aircraft missile, abandoned in 2008 after 20 years

# Kaveri engine- 16 year delay with cost escalation of 800%. Still not airworthy . Delays in the engine have compounded delays of the LCA program.

# Even the most basic items such as artillery guns and howitzers have not been produced by DRDO.

# We import even the ammunition for our tanks at exorbitant prices as was pointed out by Retd Gen V.K. Singh

# BEML has been unable to indigenously manufacture a truck and continues to import them from TATRA after 3 decades. Indigenization is confined to replacing tires, bolts & nuts.

# It now appears that India will start importing assault rifles to replace the standard issue INSAS rifle. It is important to remember that assault rifles such as the AK-47 are even assembled in bazaars and road-side shops in Afghanistan. We will probably end up importing even bullets and cartridges next.

# The so called shining examples of DRDO success namely the Agni and Prithvi range of missiles have of late failed a series of user trials. Their low reliability (50% probability of successful strike coupled with hours of pre-launch preparations) causes the very credibility of our nuclear deterrent to be questioned. A recent India today articles highlights these same issues.

# Its premier UAV the Nishant is not aerodynamic, takes hours to deploy and the army has been compelled to accept a dozen.

Despite its unclassified salary budget of over 10,000 Crores there is very little for DRDO to be proud about, other than instant food packets and portable toilets.

This article will now try to analyze what ails this organization and proceed to highlight the consequences of failure and suggest some remedial action.

Causes for Failure
01. Aiming ridiculously high and failing : A typical missile requirement would state that the user wants a missile that is shorter, lighter, lesser cross-section and has a higher payload than any other missile in its class. This is the equivalent of wanting a bride who is tall and short, fair and dark, fat and thin. Instead of having the courage of conviction to say that the requirements cannot be achieved, DRDO agrees to such requirements and fails miserably.

The latest fancy is to develop reusable missiles, which will return after dropping their payload. No one points out that such technology already exists and is called an aircraft

02. Imprecise project definitions : Some DRDO project documents call for development of indigenous technology in a particular field. After attempting and failing to develop this technology, DRDO surreptitiously orders the components from private companies who in turn may or may not be importing them.

They cleverly exploit the difference between indigenous and in-house.

03. Lack of accountability and peer review : DRDO’s progress in various fronts is judged by Professors from the IIT’s, IISc etc. However these very people receive funds from DRDO for their research. This creates a climate of patronage where no one speaks out. Every milestone is declared a success, but the project fails to deliver.

The head of DRDO serves as the chief scientific advisor to the Government, and has a clear conflict of interest.

04. Overstaffed : DRDO’s colossal employee size overshadows the size of R&D teams in Saab, Boeing, Lockheed, Sukhoi and MIG combined. Even if a few good scientists are present, they get inundated in an ocean of mediocrity. It is worth mentioning that HAL designed her first jet fighter in the 1960’s in just 3 years with the German Engineer Kurt Tank and a team of a dozen Indians. The old adage that a thousand monkeys on a typewriter cannot churn out Shakespeare comes to mind.

05. Lack of Skilled scientists : Most DRDO scientists are recruited through an exam called SET (scientist entrance test). There isn’t even a test for Aerospace. So the Aerospace engineer aspiring to join DRDO would be forced to take a mechanical engineering test where he would be tested on roof trusses and welding joints. Important subjects like fluid mechanics or control theory are not even tested.

06. Inability to attract and retain talent : DRDO pay scales are so low and bureaucratic procedures are such a hassle that even the few Indian scientists who return out of patriotism for their country after having worked in defense R&D labs overseas quit in disgust. Many DRDO labs do not even have internet access for ‘security reasons’. Having intellectually walled themselves in, they have no knowledge of the advances taking part around the world. Considering the state of affairs we would be doing the greatest disservice to our enemies if we were to give them access to the crude ‘technology’ developed by DRDO.

07. No practical experience : When DRDO is asked to design a weapon, the ‘scientists’ assigned to the task have never even seen the weapon up close or in action. There is no program by which they can embed themselves with the army unit, see the weapon in action, understand it and suggest improvements or modifications. As a result the first few designs are amateurish and laughable at best

08. Penny wise and pound foolish : Importing a weapon to take it apart, study it and reverse engineer it like the Chinese would be declared an unjustifiable expense. Despite its massive 10000Cr budget scientists from different labs wouldn’t be trusted to use their own vehicles to attend a meeting. Instead they must book an ‘approved’ taxi days in advance. The taxi would invariably be late and meetings start hours late. Clearly the bureaucracy doesn’t value the time of its scientists.

09. Lack of peer review : Most of the mathematical basis for the ‘research’ conducted is dubious. Worldwide peer reviewed journals are the best way to discuss and criticize research. DRDO has a bunch of in-house journals where the same set of ‘scientists’ publish, review and pat each other on the back.

10. No transmission or dissemination of knowledge : One DRDO lab has no clue as to what the other is trying to do, so they end up trying to solve the same problem over and over again. There have been a few success stories such as the design of the control law for the LCA. But the program has taken so long, that the scientists involved would retire and new scientists recruited for another program would have to relearn everything from scratch. Therefore the next aircraft program would take just as long as the LCA.

Consequences of failure
The government has a vested interest in letting this state of rot continue. DRDO is given a chance to develop various weapon systems, knowing fully well that it will fail after trying for decades.

This is then used to justify imports and the usual coterie of arms dealers make a killing selling obsolete arms to the armed forces at exorbitant prices. The ultimate price is paid by our brave troops who do not have the best weapons at their disposal.

Remedial Action
# Shut down DRDO. If this is not possible, since there are guaranteed jobs for government employees, reduce it’s funding to zero. Stop hiring and let it die a natural death.

# Researches on small arms, grenades, RPG’s etc are best left to the engineering corps of our army who work with these weapons everyday. Task these engineers with replicating and improving armaments that we currently import.

# Judiciously select about a dozen scientists from DRDO who are technically competent. If necessary conduct an exam to test them on the fundamentals of the fields they are specializing in.

# For Large items such as aircraft, we need to pay and get the best engineers from Sukhoi, Lockheed etc so that they may train a dedicated and knowledgeable team of a dozen engineers.

# There should be no place for reservation or any limit on pay to this elite team of engineers. In fact we would be hard pressed to find a dozen such people.

# Encourage the private sector to design and develop weapon systems. They should be allowed to design and manufacture complete weapon systems and line replaceable units. Our private sector needs to stop imagining that R&D consists of BPO’s, call centers and Nanos.

DRDO India's lumbering dinosaur

Please debate on this

do u know that everybody hates u now

 

[gslv mk3]

@Cheetah786 take a look at posts #78 & #79

 

[gslv mk3]

No coments @Cheetah786 ?

 

[gslv mk3]

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