Chinese junk? Latest fighter plane from People's Army ticketed for exp

[Thəorətic Muslim]

These liberal arts degrees are for worthless bums

I got educated back in the day when teachers taught you to think for yourself not teaching for some standardized exam. Like most Asian societies, your given a textbook and told to memorize each page as if you life depended on it.

I don't need to be fed information and told its the "truth the only truth and nothing but the truth." I got a brain and will use it. Not waste my time plugging up space on some server with "this new weapon concept will allow the Chinese to destroy those imperial Americans".

 

[2013China]

This is what happens when u copy copy copy instead of quality quality quality.

The other way of looking into is that china still beg for Russian arms and systems while boasting in the world that its independent in defense manufacturing.

Ridicule others, take a look at yourself. Your country developing its own defense technology that looks like a joke!

那个南亚的像三角裤一样的地方永远都只会生长酸葡萄！

 

[gambit]

They're actually not the same.

In terms of shaping, the J-31 is better than the F-22 and F-35.

I'll just repost this here.

That fit the criticisms that your fellow Chinese leveled against others. But we know by now, Chinese are exempt from the rules of logic.

 

[SQ8]

Apart from the fact that this is a Fox news piece whose recent foot in mouth journalism included asking NASA engineers what good is the space program; There is little known about the J-31 or other Chinese programs in terms of what technology has gone through into producing the aircraft or to what extent are they stealth beyond shaping.

To qualify them on the same level as Dolce & Gabbana copies like Dolce & Banana is a bit too much. There has been a lot of progress since the China of the 80's and 90's to what it is today in terms of defence aviation. And credit also goes to their snooping and procurement approaches of finding technology from all over the globe(by hook or by crook) and dumping resources into a replicating process. Eventually, they were bound to learn a thing or two and come up with something of their own.

In essence, the J-20 , J-31 , J-15 can all be called copies. But to do so as an underestimating view is folly. Since they are copies or adaptations of existing EFFECTIVE designs. So perhaps they wont be ahead of the original innovator by doing so, but they will be ahead of all those that the original design was ahead of.

 

[vK_man]

That fit the criticisms that your fellow Chinese leveled against others. But we know by now, Chinese are exempt from the rules of logic.

I would agree with you on this. F-22 is still the best out there.Others are not even deployed and still undergoing testing.

 

[bolo]

It IS the truth.

The F-16 have engines from Pratt-Whitney and General Electric. Does that mean there are two different -16s?



I do not care of your opinion of Fox News. But the reality is that Fox News is better than rt and presstv and people got no problems using the latter two as 'credible' news sources.


If the F-35 is open to analyses by the Australians (APA), of whom the leader have no aviation experience, and people have no problems using APA as a source to make outrageous claims about the J-20, especially by your friend Marty, then why not the J-31 be equally open to analyses by us lay people?

Let me guess...American products are fair game, but not Chinese?

Lol. There goes your credibility, if you had any to begin with

 

[gambit]

Apart from the fact that this is a Fox news piece whose recent foot in mouth journalism included asking NASA engineers what good is the space program; There is little known about the J-31 or other Chinese programs in terms of what technology has gone through into producing the aircraft or to what extent are they stealth beyond shaping.

To qualify them on the same level as Dolce & Gabbana copies like Dolce & Banana is a bit too much. There has been a lot of progress since the China of the 80's and 90's to what it is today in terms of defence aviation. And credit also goes to their snooping and procurement approaches of finding technology from all over the globe(by hook or by crook) and dumping resources into a replicating process. Eventually, they were bound to learn a thing or two and come up with something of their own.

In essence, the J-20 , J-31 , J-15 can all be called copies. But to do so as an underestimating view is folly. Since they are copies or adaptations of existing EFFECTIVE designs. So perhaps they wont be ahead of the original innovator by doing so, but they will be ahead of all those that the original design was ahead of.

The idea is not new. When the F-117 came out, many countries thought of the same path. The scuttlebutt I got -- after I got out and entered aviation as a civilian -- was that the same countries that were sufficiently technologically sophisticated abandoned the F-117 once they learned that the US abandoned its method of RCS control.

Currently, China has the wealth and the leadership necessary to take on that path and Chinese engineers abandoned the -117's method of RCS control. But that does not mean the designs they came up with will be on a par of the -117. The Chinese members here have a grossly simplistic view of radar detection and RCS control methods and tactics. The often cited opinion: 'If it looks good, it will fly good.' does not apply to radar detection. Outside of major structural reform and shaping, such as canted twin vertical stabs or none at all, and isolated measurements, there is no way to declare with even 50% certainty and credibility that the J-20 and the J-31 is on a par, or as low as, the -117.

 

[Superboy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't F-117 detected and shot down by obsolete Yugoslav air defense?

 

[bolo]

A new fighter plane built by China is drawing more snickers than raves from aviation experts, and the People's Army is now saying the jet was really ticketed for export all along.

The J-31 "Falcon Hawk," likely designed by reverse-engineering a downed U.S. stealth fighter, was supposed “to become China’s next generation of carrier-based aircraft” and take its place next to the U.S.-made F-35 Lightning II as the gold standard in air force weaponry, according to a report last month in People’s Daily. But now it looks like China, which has exactly one aircraft carrier, has scaled back the hype and will peddle the aircraft to second-tier air forces like Brazil, Pakistan and some Middle East countries.

“It’s probably likely that the technology was not originally created for export but built for their own use and it did not work out too well,” Stephen Biddle, a political science professor at George Washington University and senior defense policy fellow at the Council for Foreign Relations told FoxNews.com.

“It’s probably likely that the technology was not originally created for export but built for their own use and it did not work out too well.”
- Stephen Biddle, Senior Defense Policy Fellow, Council for Foreign Relations

Even the Chinese press has been critical of the jet, with Bejing-based Sina Military Network calling the J-15 a “flopping fish,” and claiming that the plane could not take off from a carrier with heavy ammunitions which could cripple its attack range as well as firepower.

Aviation experts say that based on the limited information publicly available of the J-31, it appears to be little more than a cheap copy of an American fighter jet.

"The J-31 is sort of a copy of the F-22, the most advanced (and troubled), U.S. multi-role fighter jet," David Cenciotti, a former pilot for the Italian Air Force who blogs at theaviationist.com, told FoxNews.com. "Same nose section, same twin tails and trapezoidal wings along with the distinctive lines of the stealth design."

But Cenciotti said the aircraft doesn’t appear to have thrust vectoring capabilities that give fighter planes superior maneuverability. He suspects it was based on American warplanes, and not just the F-117 stealth jet downed in 1999 by a Serbian anti-aircraft missile.

"Considering all the cyber attacks targeting Lockheed Martin stealth projects in the last years, one could believe Chinese hackers were able to put their hands on some useful technical drawings of the Raptor or F-35," he said.

No amount of espionage or copying of U.S. technology can duplicate American air power, according to Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R-Il.) an Air Force veteran who still serves as a pilot in the Air National Guard.

“America has always produced and flown the top aviation machines in the world," Kinzinger told FoxNews.com. "While China’s claims about the capabilities of the J-31 have raised some eyebrows, consider me a skeptic until I see the proof.”

James Hardy, Asia-Pacific Editor of Jane’s Defence Weekly, said there is no way to compare the J-31 to other fighter planes, given the secrecy still surrounding it.

“Because we have only limited data on the J-31, it impossible to say whether it is inferior to the F-35,” Hardy said. "Qualitatively there's no way to compare unless we know its fire-control radar, subsystems, avionics, and what it is made of. Its planform [silhouette] certainly makes it look like a fifth generation fighter, but what materials it is made of and all kinds of other questions mean judging its radar cross section - and so its stealthiness - is hard to do.”

Hardy adds that lack of strong information about the fighter --and the fact that it is going straight to export--might make it a hard sell on the international market.

“One key point is that if the People's Liberation Army air forces aren’t going to field it, that might deter other countries," he said. "The thinking may go: if it's not good enough for China, why should we buy it?”
Chinese junk? Latest fighter plane from People's Army ticketed for export | Fox News @Aeronaut @Oscar @nuclearpak @Icarus @Xeric @Arabian Legend @Yzd Khalifa @DESERT FIGHTER @jaibi @balixd and others

Do you have a link to the article?

 

[SQ8]

Currently, China has the wealth and the leadership necessary to take on that path and Chinese engineers abandoned the -117's method of RCS control. But that does not mean the designs they came up with will be on a par of the -117. The Chinese members here have a grossly simplistic view of radar detection and RCS control methods and tactics. The often cited opinion: 'If it looks good, it will fly good.' does not apply to radar detection. Outside of major structural reform and shaping, such as canted twin vertical stabs or none at all, and isolated measurements, there is no way to declare with even 50% certainty and credibility that the J-20 and the J-31 is on a par, or as low as, the -117.

Then again, it is difficult to judge how far China has looked into RCS measures including materials by judging its members here(or otherwise). The internal socio-political conditions in China in my opinion are not conducive for even ex-servicemen to come online and talk of their experiences from a purely "dailty-grind" perspective; so talking about what they worked on or did not is definitely out of the question. Many Chinese students who were part of my class created their first Facebook accounts when they landed abroad.

With that being said, one must not forget that a lot of information and knowledge was gained by American engineers and designers by studying bombed out German factories and designs such as the Horten flying wings. And that information did prove useful to an extent in advancing American Aircraft manufacturing. In the 71 war for e.g. Yeager(from his own accounts) who was air attache in Pakistan at the time had authority to go out and pick up entire parts of Indian aircraft shot down and have them shipped to the US for further study. The same way, incidents such as the OBL raid where the new low observable SH-60 derivative crashed also allow Chinese engineers the opportunity to study an particular advancements in materials or shaping(even if it is a generally charred airframe or intact tail rotor).

Long story short, it would be imprudent to say(although nationalism and Jingoism gets the best of many) that the Chinese designs are at par with the F-22 or F-35 simply based on the fact that they aren't the original innovators into the design and hence lack behind in "created" knowledge. But it would also be imprudent to discard that they may have reached a level equal to(or better)than the F-117 or Tacit Blue programs. Again, it is better to gain the perspective of a force that has experience in operating both systems; and while this sounds oddly self serving..the Pakistan Airforce is the best example. I wont go into details, but it is enough to say that Air Force pilots I know personally were more excited about the F-16 Block-52 than the J-10.

Unfortunately, what many Chinese members may not like to hear nor will they restrain from repraisal; Is that while they are catching up quite fast(perhaps faster than the US is getting away).. they still have a long way to go before they equal the US in technology. And that period is anywhere between 15-30 years.

Those that talk of UAV's such as the predator as being the forefront of American power and the latest perhaps forget that back in the mid 60's.. a little known program based on a Drone called the Ryan 147 was used to map a large section of China and take pictures of its sensitive locations. So the Americans did not start UAV's some 10 or 15 years ago, they've been using for 50 years.

Some of these were shot down off course , as the PLA got smarter and figured out where and how these UAV's flew to set traps...and that statement in my view should tell you a lot about the dynamics in the strategic game between the US and China.

 

[Superboy]

s that while they are catching up quite fast(perhaps faster than the US is getting away).. they still have a long way to go before they equal the US in technology. And that period is anywhere between 15-30 years.

That is your opinion.

 

[Lightningbolt]

It's funny that some overseas Pakistanis criticising China when without us Pakistan would most likely have no military and be a colony of India.

It's all well and good for them to use our money and weapons to fund their country but they want to bash us too.

If you don't like our weapons, go buy it from your masters in the US, heck buy it from Russia. If you can't get it from them, I'm sure India will give you some superior weapons.

It's the same crap we get regarding civilian goods. They like to bash us but continue to buy them. If you don't like it and want better quality, pay higher price and get it. If not, shut your mouth and deal with it!

 

[Genesis]

Yes...I would.

The SE is indeed a variant, but STRUCTURALLY speaking, the only difference between the SE and its predecessors are the canted twin vertical stabs. Conformal store containers are not part of the original design and can be removed without adversely affecting its original flight dynamics. That fact is obvious enough with the original conformal fuel tanks configuration and those conformal containers were indeed removable. All Boeing did were external modifications, not design improvements.


Putting a different cockpit layout does not make the J-15 a different beast. Even if you go as far as installing a different engine in it, that still would not be enough. You want to see a genuine difference despite visual similarities? Try the A-5, MIG-25, and F-15.

Most people falsely believe that the F-15 was based upon the MIG-25 out of that visual similarity. The reality is that the MIG-25 was based upon the North American A-5 Vigilante. The A-5's final production run have a single vertical stab. But the original design had twin vertical stabs. The US Navy decided the twin tails were too 'radical' for its pilots so would not purchase it unless North American changed the design. Look at the MIG-25 and you would see the original A-5 and espionage helped produced the MIG-25. The F-15 is an evolution from the A-5, not the MIG-25.

At best...The Chinese version of the Soviet/Russian fighters is analogous to how the MIG-25 came to be.


The word 'copy' here is meant to denote the Chinese engineers copied as much as possible some of the visual aspects of the F-22 onto the J-31. Sorry, but that is undeniable. That does not mean the J-31 is somehow 'based' upon the F-22. It means that out of the need to quickly produce a supposedly 'stealth' aircraft, Chinese engineers simply incorporated as much as possible the many structural and shaping features of the F-22 to make the J-31 and hope that visual similarities will produce comparable radar reflectivity.


Sure it is simply because the same people who criticize Fox often referenced rt or presstv at their convenience. I point that out not because am trying to lump you into that group but only to bring to the fore the need to focus on the CONTENTS of these sources, even more so when they reference someone else.


If you say that the article is 'not true', the you have to do something like prove the Italian pilot David Cenciotti is a fictional character. But since he is a real person and assume that he did made that comment, then you cannot say that the article is 'not true' even if Cenciotti is proven technically wrong at a later date.

I won't argue the J-11's case too much, no matter what's said it is still based on the Flanker series. So I'll concede this point. We still have the J-10 anyways.

However, you do have to admit, what do western media try to paint the Chinese military industry? When they say "copy" they mean we are idiots who can't make anything. Anything and everything they must find something similar to say that this is based on it.

I admit for us to advance as much as we did, it's impossible not to copy, but it is impossible to copy everything. Most of the internal components must be designed in house because it can't be copied without the people who were first involved in the design process.

Or else software maintenance wouldn't cost as much as it does. I would know.

We designed the missiles, the radar, the engine, this and that, pretty much all but the appearance of the fighter. IT doesn't mean original but it does mean that we are capable of an individual effort.



Now on to F-22, is our J-20 somewhat similar? Sure, but some media makes it sound like we stole a F-22 and then paint it black and call it J-20. When in fact even the outward appearance is not a copy. IT has similarities, but it also has differences.

In fact by the looks of it, the mission may not be the same.

With all these differences, people keep calling it a copy would you be happy? You were mad just because people made a even more ridicules claim that somehow stealth don't work in rain.



I wouldn't have cared who said it, IF this had been public knowledge and all he did was making a comment.

But these people are making predictions that even people in the know can't.

The J-20 and J-31 has no engine and is still under development. How can these people know if these will enter production and how they will work when even we don't? Anything can still change at this point.

I'm not saying they are not qualified, I'm saying they are not God, they can't see the future, or maybe they can, I don't know.

On the 1 in a million that it is right, it is not because they are smart or in the know it's because there's only so many possibilities with a fighter that somebody is bound to be right about something.

Would you consider that news?

 

[longlong]

I would agree with you on this. F-22 is still the best out there.Others are not even deployed and still undergoing testing.

I would say f-22 is the biggest joke in the short human's air-force history. It ever was Superpower's America dream ---- it will always be a dream, 100% approved.

1) It had been stopped at 187. No one will do that if it's really good, however expensive it is;

2) They demolished the product line even before F-35 works;

3) They even want to spend trillions $$$ on those problematic F-35. Uncle Sam knows even a fatty duck is still better than a lame duck.

4) F-22s are not allowed to export. People will only do that when they knows its really useless.

5) F-22 even cannot fight -- it never fought. Would you spend $100M on a 1000' TV with an agreement not watching it?

6) They're rushing to debut 6th generation fighter -- for their 5th are totally a story-talker.


F-22, Liar!!!

 

[vK_man]

I would say f-22 is the biggest joke in the short human's air-force history. It ever was Superpower's America dream ---- it will always be a dream, 100% approved.

1) It had been stopped at 187. No one will do that if it's really good, however expensive it is;

2) They demolished the product line even before F-35 works;

3) They even want to spend trillions $$$ on those problematic F-35. Uncle Sam knows even a fatty duck is still better than a lame duck.

4) F-22s are not allowed to export. People will only do that when they knows its really useless.

5) F-22 even cannot fight -- it never fought. Would you spend $100M on a 1000' TV with an agreement not watching it?

6) They're rushing to debut 6th generation fighter -- for their 5th are totally a story-talker.


F-22, Liar!!!

@gambit,what do you have to say/