F-6 enthusiast
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Question : will this fighter be cleared for export now that it has been equipped with an indigenous engine ?
Chinese Aero Engine information thread
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siegecrossbow
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The J-10C has been cleared for export since 2018. Use of domestic engine just makes it more appealing and removes one additional hurdle.
Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen
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WS-10B has state of the art digital control. It is more advanced than the legacy AL-31F it replaced.
GiantPanda
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siegecrossbow
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Yeah but Russia didn’t exactly stay still during the intervening time period.
Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen
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Russia's best engine is the one powering Su-35S. While good, it is still a legacy design based on AL-31F which powers Su-27.
ZeEa5KPul
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I don't want to keep belabouring the topic, but what advancement has Russia made recently relative to China in low-bypass turbofans? Both the izd 30 and WS-15 are in development hell and I expect the WS-15 to be produced in far greater numbers given the respective finances of Russia and China, even if the izd 30 technically appeared first.
It's certainly too early to say that China has comprehensively pulled ahead of Russia (especially that Russia has a civilian high-bypass turbofan), but it's wholly accurate to say that they're on roughly equal footing at present with the introduction of the WS-10 family and the WS-20.
siegecrossbow
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Higher end thrust estimate for WS-10C is 145 KN, but this comes at a cost of higher by-pass ratio (which sacrifices high speed performance) and we don't know if it is the actual number since estimates range between 135 KN and 145 KN. We know next to nothing about how WS-15 is doing due to the opacity of PLA, so a comparison is hard to make.
What we do know is that when comparing J-16 and Su-35, Yankeesama claimed that the ideal PLAAF flanker would be an aircraft with J-16 avionics and missiles but Su-35 engines. I think that is as good an assessment of WS-10 and 117S as we are going to get.
ZeEa5KPul
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We know a fair bit more than "next to nothing." For one, we know that China has a lot more money than Russia and that given the low numbers of Su-57s Russia intends to procure, the izd 30 project isn't exactly swimming in money like Scrooge McDuck.
As for the WS-15 itself, I believe it's fairly settled that it's a ~180kN engine that should be in mass production in ~2025. Granted, I'd love to know a lot more, but such is the nature of the PLA watching game. We also know that China started from a far higher technological base when it initiated the WS-15 project than it did with the WS-10, both in absolute terms and relative to its competitors.
All told, I expect the WS-15 to be roughly comparable to the izd 30, maybe a little better, maybe a little worse. I expect the story to be very different with the next generation of engines installed on 6th gen fighters (adaptive cycle, ceramic matrix composite turbines, all the bells and whistles) around 2035 when China is in the first tier of engine makers, simply because of the vast disparity in funding and development pace between China and Russia.
I believe that has more to do with thrust vectoring than anything else. The WS-10 has a thrust vectoring variant - I'm sure the PLAAF would have installed it if it felt it was worth the extra cost. They correctly concluded that thrust vectoring isn't worthwhile on 4.5 gen aircraft.
CAPRICORN-88
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It may take a long while before Russia IDZ-30 can be certified.
Eversince the flameout on its SU-57 during an Airshow, there is no progress. Russia has yet to overcome the problem.
Russia engineers dealing with the IDZ-30 are facing difficulties with the problem of extreme temperature and overheating in the internal chamber.
I believe the SU-57 in service with RuAF at this moment are flying with AL-41F a tweaked up AL-31F.
On the other hand based on leaks, the engineers building China WS-15 appeared to have master the art of adding Rhenium into superalloy of the crystal blades. Rumor has it that the internal chamber temperature has now reached 2000 C.
Eversince the flameout on its SU-57 during an Airshow, there is no progress. Russia has yet to overcome the problem.
Russia engineers dealing with the IDZ-30 are facing difficulties with the problem of extreme temperature and overheating in the internal chamber.
I believe the SU-57 in service with RuAF at this moment are flying with AL-41F a tweaked up AL-31F.
On the other hand based on leaks, the engineers building China WS-15 appeared to have master the art of adding Rhenium into superalloy of the crystal blades. Rumor has it that the internal chamber temperature has now reached 2000 C.
Roughly agree but the Chinese would still be somewhat behind the leaders US/UK and roughly comparable to the joint French/German effort in 6th gen fighter engines.
White and Green with M/S
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Do you have the technology to build variable cycle engines like Soviet did it for MFI (Mig-1.44) AlL-41???
China is not replacing Al-31F from all J-10A and S but WS-10 only for new built J-10C, to replace all Al-31F from all J-10 inventory is not economically viable for China
Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen
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A and B models are not in production.
White and Green with M/S
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But you're saying all which means ALL J-10 INVENTORY OF PLAAF lol, and it doesn't matter that A and B is not in production, if China want to replace all AL-31F on J-10A and B they can easily do it lol
How China is trying to fix the biggest problem plaguing its fighter jets
Benjamin Brimelow
June 7, 2021, 4:01 am
China's J-20 stealth fighter jet. Reuters
The fifth-generation fighter also known as the "Mighty Dragon" is more than just a stealth fighter. It's an example that China, like the US, can build some of the best military technology in the world.
It has become a symbol for the Chinese Communist Party, shown proudly at military parades and mentioned repeatedly in Chinese defense publications.
After a brutal brawl with Indian troops on the countries' disputed border last year, China sent two J-20s to airbases in Xinjiang.
That deployment was too small to be of any real strategic significance, but the fact that China deployed its best fighter jet to a remote area in the Himalayas showed its seriousness. The J-20's deployment to China's Eastern Theatre Command is meant to send a similar message to Taiwan, Japan, and the US.
But the J-20, like all Chinese aircraft, has been hobbled by a lack of efficient and durable, high-performance jet engines.
That problem has plagued China's defense industry for a long time, and it's one Beijing is working hard to fix.
A long-standing problem
China's J-20 stealth fighter jet. Reuters
China's difficulties with jet engines may be surprising given the country's massive and successful military buildup.
It's also no secret that China is skilled at reverse-engineering foreign technology to make domestic copies. Virtually every Chinese fighter jet is based on stolen or reverse-engineered designs.
There is precedent for reverse-engineering jet engines, but while China has plenty of access to Russian jet engines, Beijing's attempts to produce its own domestic designs have been largely unsuccessful.
One of its earliest versions of a domestically designed engine, the WS-10A, regularly broke down after just 30 hours of use.
There are many reasons for these failures. First, Russia is aware China has stolen its intellectual property before and is reluctant to sell Beijing its best engines. Moscow also doesn't sell standalone engines, instead including them on existing jets, which makes copying them difficult.
Second, reverse-engineering skill doesn't easily translate into proficiency at developing new jet engines from scratch. That requires technological know-how that takes years of intensive learning to develop and generations to perfect.
The 'apex' of technological manufacturing
China's J-20 stealth fighter jet. Reuters
Perhaps most important, manufacturing jet engines is just extremely complicated.
"There are a few technologies that are really at the apex of technological manufacturing," and jet engines are one of them, Timothy Heath, a senior international and defense researcher at the Rand Corporation think tank, told Insider.
"These high-end technologies are so difficult to master that very few countries succeed. Many have failed," Heath added.
The main difficulty lies in the metallurgy and machining. A single engine on a civilian Boeing 747 airliner, for example, has at least 40,000 parts. Temperatures in that engine can reach as high as 2,500 degrees Fahrenheit, and its fan blades can spin well over 3,000 times a minute during an hours-long flight.
Blueprints for such an engine can be copied, but the secrets to producing and shaping metal parts that can withstand those temperatures and spin at such tremendous RPM over thousands of hours - not to mention external factors like wind resistance and corrosion - without breaking aren't easy to find.
Another disadvantage for China is that the entities tasked with developing these complex machines are state-owned enterprises.
Historically speaking, SOEs struggle with innovation and developing cutting-edge technology. The reliance on reverse-engineering shows that this is the case with China, though there are certainly exceptions.
"They're better at just reverse-engineering simpler components and building simpler things," Heath said. "All this requires a level of expertise and competence that SOEs just often are not very good at. You have to recognize the limitations of the SOEs in China when it comes to innovation."
'Crucial technology cannot be bought'
China's J-20 stealth fighter at an air show in 2016. REUTERS/Stringer
China is more than aware of its engine problems.
Liu Daxiang, the deputy director of the science and technology committee at the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China, last year called the development of domestic jet engines "a serious and urgent political task" and said China was facing an "unprecedented challenge."
"The established countries in aviation have become more strict with us when it comes to technology access," Liu said, adding that recent US efforts to restrict opportunities for the Chinese telecommunications firm Huawei "tells us that crucial technology cannot be bought, even if you spend big."
In an attempt to get direct access to the secrets of jet manufacturing, the Chinese state-owned aviation firm Skyrizon, which has been blacklisted by the US government, tried to acquire a controlling stake in Motor Sich, a Ukrainian company that is one of the largest producers of engines for helicopters, jets, and missiles.
But the Ukrainian government this year stopped the deal, most likely because of pressure from the US.
Despite the setbacks, China has made some progress. Modern variants of the WS-10 have progressed enough that some Chinese jets are being fitted with them, including numerous J-20s.
Chinese sources have said that the WS-15, an engine designed specifically for the J-20, "may be finished within one or two years" and that once those engines are installed, the J-20 will be "on a par" with the US's fifth-generation F-22 Raptor.
Ballpoint pens, microchips, and jet engines
Chinese J-20 stealth fighters. Reuters
But many challenges remain. The complexity of the materials and metallurgy process, the costs of acquiring and maintaining the scientific and machining expertise, and the reluctance of other countries to assist China for fear of intellectual-property theft are but a few of them.
China faces a similar predicament in manufacturing high-end microchips and semiconductors. Despite hundreds of millions of dollars and major efforts by state-owned enterprises, China has not been able to create its own computer chips.
"It's just that some of these technologies are extremely difficult to do, and it doesn't matter how much money you throw at it - if you don't have the right combination of people, technologies, and skills, it's just not going to come together so easily," Heath said.
But China doesn't give up easily. In 2017, a Chinese state-owned firm announced plans to mass-produce ballpoint pen tips for the first time. China already made billions of pens, but only after a five-year, multimillion-dollar effort did it develop the technology to make tips for those pens domestically.
"All these elements can be reached only through long-term investment and incremental development," a Chinese researcher said at the time.
news.yahoo.com
Benjamin Brimelow
June 7, 2021, 4:01 am
China's J-20 stealth fighter jet. Reuters
- China's leaders regularly tout their country's fighter jets as symbols of military capability.
- But China's fighter jets have long had a major shortcoming: a lack of quality engines.
- China's defense industry has struggled with that flaw, but Beijing is working hard to fix it.
- See more stories on Insider's business page.
The fifth-generation fighter also known as the "Mighty Dragon" is more than just a stealth fighter. It's an example that China, like the US, can build some of the best military technology in the world.
It has become a symbol for the Chinese Communist Party, shown proudly at military parades and mentioned repeatedly in Chinese defense publications.
After a brutal brawl with Indian troops on the countries' disputed border last year, China sent two J-20s to airbases in Xinjiang.
That deployment was too small to be of any real strategic significance, but the fact that China deployed its best fighter jet to a remote area in the Himalayas showed its seriousness. The J-20's deployment to China's Eastern Theatre Command is meant to send a similar message to Taiwan, Japan, and the US.
But the J-20, like all Chinese aircraft, has been hobbled by a lack of efficient and durable, high-performance jet engines.
That problem has plagued China's defense industry for a long time, and it's one Beijing is working hard to fix.
A long-standing problem
China's J-20 stealth fighter jet. Reuters
China's difficulties with jet engines may be surprising given the country's massive and successful military buildup.
It's also no secret that China is skilled at reverse-engineering foreign technology to make domestic copies. Virtually every Chinese fighter jet is based on stolen or reverse-engineered designs.
There is precedent for reverse-engineering jet engines, but while China has plenty of access to Russian jet engines, Beijing's attempts to produce its own domestic designs have been largely unsuccessful.
One of its earliest versions of a domestically designed engine, the WS-10A, regularly broke down after just 30 hours of use.
There are many reasons for these failures. First, Russia is aware China has stolen its intellectual property before and is reluctant to sell Beijing its best engines. Moscow also doesn't sell standalone engines, instead including them on existing jets, which makes copying them difficult.
Second, reverse-engineering skill doesn't easily translate into proficiency at developing new jet engines from scratch. That requires technological know-how that takes years of intensive learning to develop and generations to perfect.
The 'apex' of technological manufacturing
China's J-20 stealth fighter jet. Reuters
Perhaps most important, manufacturing jet engines is just extremely complicated.
"There are a few technologies that are really at the apex of technological manufacturing," and jet engines are one of them, Timothy Heath, a senior international and defense researcher at the Rand Corporation think tank, told Insider.
"These high-end technologies are so difficult to master that very few countries succeed. Many have failed," Heath added.
The main difficulty lies in the metallurgy and machining. A single engine on a civilian Boeing 747 airliner, for example, has at least 40,000 parts. Temperatures in that engine can reach as high as 2,500 degrees Fahrenheit, and its fan blades can spin well over 3,000 times a minute during an hours-long flight.
Blueprints for such an engine can be copied, but the secrets to producing and shaping metal parts that can withstand those temperatures and spin at such tremendous RPM over thousands of hours - not to mention external factors like wind resistance and corrosion - without breaking aren't easy to find.
Another disadvantage for China is that the entities tasked with developing these complex machines are state-owned enterprises.
Historically speaking, SOEs struggle with innovation and developing cutting-edge technology. The reliance on reverse-engineering shows that this is the case with China, though there are certainly exceptions.
"They're better at just reverse-engineering simpler components and building simpler things," Heath said. "All this requires a level of expertise and competence that SOEs just often are not very good at. You have to recognize the limitations of the SOEs in China when it comes to innovation."
'Crucial technology cannot be bought'
China's J-20 stealth fighter at an air show in 2016. REUTERS/Stringer
China is more than aware of its engine problems.
Liu Daxiang, the deputy director of the science and technology committee at the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China, last year called the development of domestic jet engines "a serious and urgent political task" and said China was facing an "unprecedented challenge."
"The established countries in aviation have become more strict with us when it comes to technology access," Liu said, adding that recent US efforts to restrict opportunities for the Chinese telecommunications firm Huawei "tells us that crucial technology cannot be bought, even if you spend big."
In an attempt to get direct access to the secrets of jet manufacturing, the Chinese state-owned aviation firm Skyrizon, which has been blacklisted by the US government, tried to acquire a controlling stake in Motor Sich, a Ukrainian company that is one of the largest producers of engines for helicopters, jets, and missiles.
But the Ukrainian government this year stopped the deal, most likely because of pressure from the US.
Despite the setbacks, China has made some progress. Modern variants of the WS-10 have progressed enough that some Chinese jets are being fitted with them, including numerous J-20s.
Chinese sources have said that the WS-15, an engine designed specifically for the J-20, "may be finished within one or two years" and that once those engines are installed, the J-20 will be "on a par" with the US's fifth-generation F-22 Raptor.
Ballpoint pens, microchips, and jet engines
Chinese J-20 stealth fighters. Reuters
But many challenges remain. The complexity of the materials and metallurgy process, the costs of acquiring and maintaining the scientific and machining expertise, and the reluctance of other countries to assist China for fear of intellectual-property theft are but a few of them.
China faces a similar predicament in manufacturing high-end microchips and semiconductors. Despite hundreds of millions of dollars and major efforts by state-owned enterprises, China has not been able to create its own computer chips.
"It's just that some of these technologies are extremely difficult to do, and it doesn't matter how much money you throw at it - if you don't have the right combination of people, technologies, and skills, it's just not going to come together so easily," Heath said.
But China doesn't give up easily. In 2017, a Chinese state-owned firm announced plans to mass-produce ballpoint pen tips for the first time. China already made billions of pens, but only after a five-year, multimillion-dollar effort did it develop the technology to make tips for those pens domestically.
"All these elements can be reached only through long-term investment and incremental development," a Chinese researcher said at the time.
How China is trying to fix the biggest problem plaguing its fighter jets
China touts its fighter jets as symbols of military capability, but those jets have long had a major shortcoming: a lack of quality engines.
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