China's new launch rocket

[marshall]

Don't be an ingrate in this world. Given credit where credit is due.

The old Imperial Russia gave Manchu "China" nothing and took everything.

But the USSR "gave" the PRC a great deal - from technology to text books. Yes text books! I didn't know the text books I studied off were Russian/USSR in origin until my dad set me straight.

Yes, Stalin engineered Outer Mongolia's breakaway. And Brezhnev even planned to nuke China. But does Mao's one-minded craziness not factor in? Will getting Outer Mongolia "back" solve China's problems?

It's not about what you "lost", it's about what you have. And about who helped you and when in making the most of what you have.

Although your argument is an oversimplification of what actually happened. The technical help the USSR provided China from 1953-1961 was very important, this is undeniable. However, your description suggests this was some sort of humanitarian mission by the Soviet Union when it was to both China and the USSR strategic advantage during the Cold War. Losing territory the size of Outer Mongolia was a tragedy for China's strategic position far more devastating than technical assistance that lasted less than 10 years. China paid for all the technical assistance, it wasn't gifted. As the Sino-Soviet Split was starting, China exported 2.9 million tons and 4.1 million tons of grain in 1958 and 1959 respectively, to the USSR as payment for its Soviet debt incurred by the technical assistance. This is a total of 7 million tons of grain, over 5% of China's total annual grain production at that time, which was enough food to feed around 30 million people for an entire year at that time. Do you notice any similarity between when this grain was exported to the USSR for debt repayment and when the famine in China of 1959-61 occurred?

BTW, as much as USSR's industrialization was "historically determined" and "necessary", Stalin's was not the only way ... but that's another topic.

It's a tragedy that so many PRC "cyber patriots" actively deny the Grace of the Higher Authority and take pride in (what they think are) atheism. Take note that militant, state-backed atheism was and is not a necessary pre-requisite for industrialization. Secondly, atheism does not automatically engender self-reliance and conversely, believing in a higher authority does not mean sitting there and waiting for "manna" ... in the sense of "modernization" of a nation and bringing science and "enlightenment" to a people!

Granted, I see the problems China would face today if the rulers suddenly renounced "official atheism", and everything from FLG to Christian Zionism to Talibanism to New-age Taosim to most backward superstitions will try to carve out a niche, with visible and unseens hands pulling strings backstage.

To a limited extent, that's already happening ...

But all in all, atheism is but a means to an end. But something else might just be the end unto itself.

Men with organized religion grew haughty, and they were humbled. Men with enforced atheism grow haughty, the humbling will come as surely as night follows day. The fall of USSR after 70 years was but one example.

Your obvious advocacy of Christianity, as in your own words "actively deny the Grace of the Higher Authority", doesn't necessarily result in secular societies once any single religion gains overwhelming prominence. The only reason secularism has become the norm in "Western" christian nations is because those countries have high percentages of atheists and the believers live hypocritical lives contrary to true believers of a higher authority. I think your reference to FLG here is naively misplaced. This is a "religion" created in the 1990s and has large quantities of pseudo-science as part of its ideology. This has resulted in many deaths of FLG followers due to their adherence to FLG spiritual healing where they refuse medicine that could have saved their lives. The CCP government is correct in labeling it a cult. Comparing true religions like Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc to FLG (FaLun Gong) is a joke. China welcomes religion, it doesn't welcome cults, especially cults that are financed by hostile foreign powers intent on subversion.

 

[below_freezing]

Don't be an ingrate in this world. Given credit where credit is due.

The old Imperial Russia gave Manchu "China" nothing and took everything.

But the USSR "gave" the PRC a great deal - from technology to text books. Yes text books! I didn't know the text books I studied off were Russian/USSR in origin until my dad set me straight.

Yes, Stalin engineered Outer Mongolia's breakaway. And Brezhnev even planned to nuke China. But does Mao's one-minded craziness not factor in? Will getting Outer Mongolia "back" solve China's problems?

It's not about what you "lost", it's about what you have. And about who helped you and when in making the most of what you have.

And BTW there is nothing wrong with a Christian Russia, as long as they do not live a hypocrisy as the Tsars have, which is easy to do when organized religions get mixed up with states and "vested interests". A "proper Christian" Russia is better than an atheist/Stalinist USSR by a long shot.

Again, it's hard to be "proper" even for an individual who professes faith, let alone a nation.

BTW, as much as USSR's industrialization was "historically determined" and "necessary", Stalin's was not the only way ... but that's another topic.

It's a tragedy that so many PRC "cyber patriots" actively deny the Grace of the Higher Authority and take pride in (what they think are) atheism. Take note that militant, state-backed atheism was and is not a necessary pre-requisite for industrialization. Secondly, atheism does not automatically engender self-reliance and conversely, believing in a higher authority does not mean sitting there and waiting for "manna" ... in the sense of "modernization" of a nation and bringing science and "enlightenment" to a people!

Granted, I see the problems China would face today if the rulers suddenly renounced "official atheism", and everything from FLG to Christian Zionism to Talibanism to New-age Taosim to most backward superstitions will try to carve out a niche, with visible and unseens hands pulling strings backstage.

To a limited extent, that's already happening ...

But all in all, atheism is but a means to an end. But something else might just be the end unto itself.

Men with organized religion grew haughty, and they were humbled. Men with enforced atheism grow haughty, the humbling will come as surely as night follows day. The fall of USSR after 70 years was but one example.

As Marshal Chen Yi was fond of saying, “善有善报，恶有恶报；不是不报，时候未到” ... Does that sound like an unreformed Social Darwinist / rabid atheist speaking?

Your post was useful until you began to talk about superstition. Your speech has only reinforced my thoughts about the dangers of religion, Christianity in particular. I'm much more comfortable with Islamic people being my personal neighbors, but it'll be most optimal if everyone was atheist.

 

[CardSharp]

Your post was useful until you began to talk about superstition. Your speech has only reinforced my thoughts about the dangers of religion, Christianity in particular. I'm much more comfortable with Islamic people being my personal neighbors, but it'll be most optimal if everyone was atheist.

He thinks you worship the state like he worships God. Rather misses the point of atheism.

 

[CardSharp]

Everyone views others through the lens of their own personal experience.

 

[marshall]

Everyone views others through the lens of their own personal experience.

There's a big difference between viewing others through your own lens and thinking you're always right and viewing others through your own lens while trying to understand their point of view.

This is at the heart of why so many "Westerners" have such one-sided views of anything Chinese while Chinese consistently seem to have more balanced viewpoints. Is this a symptom of greater individuality or greater selfishness or perhaps both are related? Are democracies reflections of this personal dynamic? Is the level of stagnation and gridlock present in all of the oldest democracies a result of this? I believe so.

 

[AerospaceEngineer]

First of all the NASA uses Russian technology, and the Arab Isreali wars also proved that the Israelis had a better strategy and better training, the Israelis did not do very well when they went up against Pakistani pilots flying Mig-21's, yet they had no problems shooting down Arab Mig-21's, it just proves that the Arabs had poor tactics and training.





No i do not, there was much greatness that came from the USSR but many Russian were killed, torchered, prosecuted and imprisoned, including much of my family (father) (brothers) (grandmother) and distant relatives.






What nonesense is this? Russia has had the same amount of space launches last ear as China and the US combined, right now we are invested in the international space station, and many new and independant programs are in progress.




Stop trolling and i wont jump out.



As of now Russian technology is superior to anything that was available during the Soviet times, one example would be engines, for decades Russian engines had very poor TBO but as of now that has changed, and lets stop acting like the Soviet were some forign people, the Soviet Union was built by Russian, and much of today's weapons have nothng to do with the Soviet Union. And i never denied anything from the Soviet era.

ptldM3 ok just answer 1 question please. Why does current day Russia needs india's money to build PAK-FA??? If I remember right USSR does not money from any one to build the N-1, SU-27, Mig-29, Tyhoon class nuke sub!!!! Right??


Please answer this question and then I will aggree with you.

 

[prototype]

ptldM3 ok just answer 1 question please. Why does current day Russia needs india's money to build PAK-FA??? If I remember right USSR does not money from any one to build the N-1, SU-27, Mig-29, Tyhoon class nuke sub!!!! Right??


Please answer this question and then I will aggree with you.

Frankly u r little naive if u consider India as the Russian ATM,it means u have no idea of the reach and coverage of Russian arms market,India is their major purchaser but India is not their complete market,Indian money is only a fraction of it.

PAK-FA would still be possible even if India did not participated in it,infact India joined after commencement of programme.

 

[CardSharp]

There's a big difference between viewing others through your own lens and thinking you're always right and viewing others through your own lens while trying to understand their point of view.

This is at the heart of why so many "Westerners" have such one-sided views of anything Chinese while Chinese consistently seem to have more balanced viewpoints. Is this a symptom of greater individuality or greater selfishness or perhaps both are related? Are democracies reflections of this personal dynamic? Is the level of stagnation and gridlock present in all of the oldest democracies a result of this? I believe so.

These are hard questions to answer. I personally think it's a combination of a couple of things. The west has a long held belief of superiority, and when you believe you are the dominate thought, you are less likely to try and view things from the other person's side.

Take the example of China's first contact with the "barbarians". The Chinese court worked under an assumption of dominance, and China was surrounded by uncivilized people, most of them in a subject-ruler relationship. Now when Britain came to the emperor trying convince him of their ideas about free markets (or rather the British idea of free markets), the emperor politely told them to fk off. China was dispelled of the idea of being the dominate narrative of the world, and had to rebuild under new assumptions (Mao and Communism was an reaction to this in part).

The west continues to believe itself to be the dominate narrative of our world.

 

[AerospaceEngineer]

Don't be an ingrate in this world. Given credit where credit is due.

The old Imperial Russia gave Manchu "China" nothing and took everything.

But the USSR "gave" the PRC a great deal - from technology to text books. Yes text books! I didn't know the text books I studied off were Russian/USSR in origin until my dad set me straight.

Yes, Stalin engineered Outer Mongolia's breakaway. And Brezhnev even planned to nuke China. But does Mao's one-minded craziness not factor in? Will getting Outer Mongolia "back" solve China's problems?

It's not about what you "lost", it's about what you have. And about who helped you and when in making the most of what you have.

And BTW there is nothing wrong with a Christian Russia, as long as they do not live a hypocrisy as the Tsars have, which is easy to do when organized religions get mixed up with states and "vested interests". A "proper Christian" Russia is better than an atheist/Stalinist USSR by a long shot.

Again, it's hard to be "proper" even for an individual who professes faith, let alone a nation.

BTW, as much as USSR's industrialization was "historically determined" and "necessary", Stalin's was not the only way ... but that's another topic.

It's a tragedy that so many PRC "cyber patriots" actively deny the Grace of the Higher Authority and take pride in (what they think are) atheism. Take note that militant, state-backed atheism was and is not a necessary pre-requisite for industrialization. Secondly, atheism does not automatically engender self-reliance and conversely, believing in a higher authority does not mean sitting there and waiting for "manna" ... in the sense of "modernization" of a nation and bringing science and "enlightenment" to a people!

Granted, I see the problems China would face today if the rulers suddenly renounced "official atheism", and everything from FLG to Christian Zionism to Talibanism to New-age Taosim to most backward superstitions will try to carve out a niche, with visible and unseens hands pulling strings backstage.

To a limited extent, that's already happening ...

But all in all, atheism is but a means to an end. But something else might just be the end unto itself.

Men with organized religion grew haughty, and they were humbled. Men with enforced atheism grow haughty, the humbling will come as surely as night follows day. The fall of USSR after 70 years was but one example.

As Marshal Chen Yi was fond of saying, “善有善报，恶有恶报；不是不报，时候未到” ... Does that sound like an unreformed Social Darwinist / rabid atheist speaking?

Buddy. I am with you on this one. I am Zen buddhist. I too want to see Chian become 100% Zen Buddhist. However, I hate it when Westerners try to Christrianize China. I HATE IT!!!! We must do any thing we can do to stop it. If China become Christian, then all is lost. We will lose our language, culture, and souls!!. We will be conqured without a FIGHT!!

 

[CardSharp]

There's a big difference between viewing others through your own lens and thinking you're always right and viewing others through your own lens while trying to understand their point of view.

This is at the heart of why so many "Westerners" have such one-sided views of anything Chinese while Chinese consistently seem to have more balanced viewpoints. Is this a symptom of greater individuality or greater selfishness or perhaps both are related? Are democracies reflections of this personal dynamic? Is the level of stagnation and gridlock present in all of the oldest democracies a result of this? I believe so.

Another factor that might account for the onesidedness of people from the west, is we have migrated to the west and have absorbed the ideas here, while very few westerners have gone to live in China and even fewer have really absorb the ideas there.

 

[gambit]

Buddy. I am with you on this one. I am Zen buddhist. I too want to see Chian become 100% Zen Buddhist. However, I hate it when Westerners try to Christrianize China. I HATE IT!!!! We must do any thing we can do to stop it. If China become Christian, then all is lost. We will lose our language, culture, and solds!!. We will be conqured without a FIGHT!!

Anything? Kill'em all.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Anything? Kill'em all.

unnecessary flame baiting.

reported

 

[AerospaceEngineer]

Anything? Kill'em all.

Nah, no killing. I am Buddhist!!!! But stay with our own faith.

 

[gambit]

unnecessary flame baiting.

reported

Let me shake in fear in my booties for a moment.....Bbbbrrrrr....There.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Buddy. I am with you on this one. I am Zen buddhist. I too want to see Chian become 100% Zen Buddhist. However, I hate it when Westerners try to Christrianize China. I HATE IT!!!! We must do any thing we can do to stop it. If China become Christian, then all is lost. We will lose our language, culture, and souls!!. We will be conqured without a FIGHT!!

Yep, China's culture is Confucianism at the core. However, you can be Atheist/Buddhist/Taoist, or even Muslim as your personal preference.

However, Christianity is out of place in China as most Christians are puppets of the West. Unless, you are willing to practise the early Eastern Christianity that spread into China via Iran. That one has no connection with the West anyway.