China's Military modernization: the Russian Factor

[conworldus]

You know how rediculous you sound? Name one area China is superior to Russia in. Do you think we Russians will just stop and wait for China to catch up? And for your information our military spending is increasing each year, so no need to worry about anything.

Just a few coming from my mind right now. Most of them are not military, though. China focuses more on civilian technology.

1. Quantum computing
2. Superconductor in normal temperature
3. Bioengineering in food production
4. Construction machinery
5. Laser weapon research
6. Solar energy
7. Wind energy
8. Thermal earth energy
9. Super light material research
10. Traditional medicine research
11. Civilian electronics
12. Rechargable alternative material battery
....

China spends several X than Russia on research you know. The results have shown.

 

[ptldM3]

Railway tech.

China makes one of the fastest traines, so what? Does that mean their technologically superior to the US or Russia? Back to topic we're talking military.

Also I believe Russia doesn't have type 71 LPD or type 52C destroyer equivalent, atleast not operational..

Really? DDG Udaloy II-1 or DDG Udaloy-12 here's a list, take your pic: Index of Russian Naval Ship Names

Considering China buys Russian technology then copies it in their ships i think it's safe to say we have atleast an equivalent.

Russian officials have been irritated for years by what they view as China’s illegal reverse engineering of combat systems. After selling a few systems to China, Russia had counted on follow-on orders for more systems, which is the ethical business practice of other nations. In addition to costing Russia the loss of future sales to China, Chinese copies compete with Russia in sales to other Third World navies. China in turn has complained that Russia has overcharged it for ships and systems that were sold for less to other nations


The Russian state military import/ export agency Rosvoorouzhenie and 956E production Severnoye Design Bureau were shocked and angered when the 054A upgrade to the new People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) 054 frigate appeared in 2006 (SIGNAL Magazine, May 2007). At first it appeared to have four Russian-supplied systems that had been on earlier Chinese Luyang guided missile destroyers (DDGs). In reality, the four complex systems were illegal Chinese copies never before seen, and all were on a new serial production series of frigates. This was the straw that broke the bear’s back, and it could result in Russia shifting high-technology exports from China to India.

The Sovremennyi high-technology combat systems copied by China on the surprising 2006 054A upgrade may seriously disrupt future high-technology imports to China by Russia. The four copied systems are the MGK-335 sonar, the Fregate M2EM three-dimensional (3-D) radar, Mineral ME (Bandstand) tracking radars and the Russian MR90 missile guidance tracker-illuminator for the SAN-7 Rif-M Shtil surface-to-air missile (SAM).

The Fregate M2EM 3-D radar offers two channels in E and H bands that can track more than 100 contacts with maximum range of 300 kilometers (200 miles). The equipment and antenna weigh 6.6 tons and 2.3 tons, respectively. It was designed by Salyut Moscow and first provided to China on four 956E ships in 2000. China imported 10 sets of the Fregate 3-D radar, with two placed on 052B DDGs in 2002 and two placed on 051C DDGs in 2006. The first reverse-engineered Chinese copy appeared on the 054A frigate in 2006.

After all of these years, China still imports some SEMT and MTU diesel components from France and Germany. During 2006 and 2007, China imported 15 to 20 sets of German MTU 16-valve and 8-valve 396 SE84 diesels for new submarines such as the modern Yuan diesel boats. The same situation exists with China importing parts for 24 model 16 PA6STC diesels, which were used on the newest 054/054A frigates. Apparently China has not yet successfully produced these submarine or surface ship diesels without imported components.

Other notable Chinese PLAN reverse engineerings of foreign weapon systems include the Crotale/HQ-7/Castor C radar. Two sets of Crotale missile launchers were imported from France in the 1980s. Crotale missile launchers and associated Thomson CSF DRBC 32F Castor C fire control radars were installed on the Luhu DDG 112 in 1991. An upgraded Luda, hull 109 added a topside 8-round reload box aft of the launcher. The six Jiangwei II frigates launched from 1991 to 2000 had HQ-7 by China, with no reload storage. In 2002 the Crotale was replaced with indigenous HQ-7A on DDG 112. The 1993 Luhu DDG 113 and 1997 Luhai DDG 167 HQ-7 had reload rounds in below-deck hatches, which was not even available in French Crotale systems. .

SIGNAL - AFCEA's International Journal

They have closed the gap which is important.

What has China closed the gap in? WS-10 is still a mistery. Furthermore, it's underpowered compaired compaired to the Saturn 117S and its reliability and service life is still not mature. Even if the WS-10 is out Russia is already developing new generation engines but again our current gerneration is already superior. Can China match Russian SAM development? Also do you think the J-10 can match the SU-35BM? As you have read China still imports alot of Military technology, most people just don't know.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

What has China closed the gap in? WS-10 is still a mistery. Furthermore, it's underpowered compaired compaired to the Saturn 117S and its reliability and service life is still not mature. Even if the WS-10 is out Russia is already developing new generation engines but again our current gerneration is already superior. Can China match Russian SAM development? Also do you think the J-10 can match the SU-35BM? As you have read China still imports alot of Military technology, most people just don't know.

WS-10A is already equipped for J-11B, and it produces slightly more thrust than its equivalent F100-229 for F-15E.

We are also ready for our next-gen fighter.

Even the maiden flight test for our next-gen fighter may fall behind PAKFA, but as long as we can produce our own next-gen fighter, we are very happy about that.

 

[ptldM3]

Just a few coming from my mind right now. Most of them are not military, though. China focuses more on civilian technology.

1. Quantum computing
2. Superconductor in normal temperature
3. Bioengineering in food production
4. Construction machinery
5. Laser weapon research
6. Solar energy
7. Wind energy
8. Thermal earth energy
9. Super light material research
10. Traditional medicine research
11. Civilian electronics
12. Rechargable alternative material battery.

....

That was the most random list i have ever seen. Most of the crap you listed has a direct coorilation to Russian space program, meaning we either use it, or are developing better systems. We dont spend billions of dollars on our space program for nothing. You can thank the American and Russian space program for alot of the things you just listed.

China spends several X than Russia on research you know. The results have shown.

First off what is X? Secondly, what exactly have the results shown?

 

[conworldus]

Now this is a children's talk totally uninformed. See, most the things in my list are developed by private companies who have no access to the space program. Don't fool yourself thinking that you are smarter. I have worked directly with several tech companies and what they have come up is amazingly cutting edge stuff.

X means times. It is a common expression in English. Anyways, China has way more money than Russia to spend on these programs. I concede that Russia holds a temporary lead in space related project, by we are also catching up on this front. Again, money matters.

But anyways, Russia has nothing to do with our goals and etc. Hopefully we would soon catch up with the U.S, too. The gap is still large but with investment in research, engineering, and education, it is not inconceivable. After, we did conduct a mid course missile interception, becoming the only country after the U.S to do so!

....

That was the most random list i have ever seen. Most of the crap you listed has a direct coorilation to Russian space program, meaning we either use it, or are developing better systems. We dont spend billions of dollars on our space program for nothing. You can thank the American and Russian space program for alot of the things you just listed.



First off what is X? Secondly, what exactly have the results shown?

 

[ptldM3]

Now this is a children's talk totally uninformed. See, most the things in my list are developed by private companies who have no access to the space program. Don't fool yourself thinking that you are smarter.

You obviously don't have much knowledge in the space program. Solar power, rechargable batteries, composite material, medicine reasearch...ect have all benifited from the American/Russia joint or seperate space programs. Alot of the break throughs made in space reasearch ends up in civilians products.Have you ever hear the phrase, space age technology? Any ways are you trying to say China invented those applications or they lead Russia in all those applications?

I have worked directly with several tech companies and what they have come up is amazingly cutting edge stuff.

Amazing! And my cousin is a NASA engineer.

X means times. It is a common expression in English. Anyways, China has way more money than Russia to spend on these programs.

I know what X meant, i wanted the figures. China has the larger economy, but does the Chinese space program get the same funding as the Russian space program? Money doesn't buy experience or knowledge.

I concede that Russia holds a temporary lead in space related project, by we are also catching up on this front. Again, money matters.

knock...knock China send its first astronaut into space in 2003! If Russia some how stops all progress and waits 30-40 years than China will catch up in the space program.

 

[no_name]

knock...knock China send its first astronaut into space in 2003! If Russia some how stops all progress and waits 30-40 years than China will catch up in the space program.

Thats a bit simplified. If China makes a Aircraft carrier now they are not back in the 1920s, although personnel and experience wise they will be starting anew.

regards.

 

[conworldus]

You obviously don't have much knowledge in the space program. Solar power, rechargable batteries, composite material, medicine reasearch...ect have all benifited from the American/Russia joint or seperate space programs. Alot of the break throughs made in space reasearch ends up in civilians products.Have you ever hear the phrase, space age technology? Any ways are you trying to say China invented those applications or they lead Russia in all those applications?




Amazing! And my cousin is a NASA engineer.






I know what X meant, i wanted the figures. China has the larger economy, but does the Chinese space program get the same funding as the Russian space program? Money doesn't buy experience or knowledge.



knock...knock China send its first astronaut into space in 2003! If Russia some how stops all progress and waits 30-40 years than China will catch up in the space program.

I worked with several tech companies to help them finance. Yes many concept of solar energy etc come from space program but the actual research itself in China has nothing to do with Russia.

Anyways, this thread started from Russia wanting to sell its stuff to China and China doesn't want them anymore so the Russians are angry that's it. Just sell us oil please. Nothing else is needed.

Our 2003 mission contains way more technology than the earlier space missions by Russia. You can't simply equate one aspect and fool yourself thinking that we are 40 years behind. No we are not. Otherwise, Russia would conduct a mid course missile interception before we do.

The next step will be the colonization of moon the way I see it, and China will definitely do it before Russia does.

 

[krish]

this article reminds me about how DRDO failed India's military.

if China's supremacy were propaganda than what about India, a country produces no more than 1/4.7 of electricity, 1/5.7 of coal, 1/7 of automobiles, 1/8 of cement, 1/12of steel...

dont try and pass the buck here he is talking about ur goof ups here he may be rite or wrong if he is rite then no shame try to improve else give the person who posted with proof as a fitting reply dont talk bull sh** here........... and blame DRDO for the so called the chinies Failure dude its about ur national security and wat will happen to china if us and russia bomb ur a**...............

 

[ptldM3]

I worked with several tech companies to help them finance. Yes many concept of solar energy etc come from space program but the actual research itself in China has nothing to do with Russia.

It was you that claimed Chinese technology is superior to Russian technology by making your random list of things China is supposedly superior in.....supposedly......

Anyways, this thread started from Russia wanting to sell its stuff to China and China doesn't want them anymore so the Russians are angry that's it. Just sell us oil please. Nothing else is needed.

Engines? Ships? Reactors? Air defence systems?.......

The Pentagon has said in an annual report that China buys about 95% of its new weapons from Russia.
The 2006 Annual Report on the military power of the People's Republic of China said Russia remained the leading supplier of weapons to China and continued to cooperate with the country on a variety of technical and logistics issues, which allowed China to maintain and modernize its large military potential

China buys bulk of its weaponry from Russia - Pentagon report | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire

Our 2003 mission contains way more technology than the earlier space missions by Russia. You can't simply equate one aspect and fool yourself thinking that we are 40 years behind. No we are not.

And that means what? That China had to wait 42 years before it had the technology to safely get a man into space. With your mind set it should be easy to match the F-22's capabilities because you have the J-10.

Otherwise, Russia would conduct a mid course missile interception before we do.

You do realize Russia is one of the world leaders in rocket propulsion and guidence systems right? Have you heard of the S-400 or RD-180?



Anyhow i would be more impressed by China's mid course missile interception if China didn't have Russian propulsion, and guidence systems, but they do. And Just something to ponder, the S-400 has intercepted rockets and cruise missles. So you arn't special. Morover, Russia's Topol-M missle, is able to penatrate any air defence system on earth, which makes China's efforts meaningless.

The next step will be the colonization of moon the way I see it, and China will definitely do it before Russia does.

No offence, but are you on drugs?

Definately? x10 you just send a man into space 7 years ago we did it 42 years ago, and do you have any idea have far away the moon is.

 

[antonius123]

The Pentagon has said in an annual report that China buys about 95% of its new weapons from Russia.
The 2006 Annual Report on the military power of the People's Republic of China said Russia remained the leading supplier of weapons to China and continued to cooperate with the country on a variety of technical and logistics issues, which allowed China to maintain and modernize its large military potential

95% of what? of totally china's military purchase? or of china purchase from overseas?

I believe the latter (95% purchase from Russia, while 5% purchase from other country). Because in 2006 china is already quite independent to fulfill their weapon needed.

And that means what? That China had to wait 42 years before it had the technology to safely get a man into space. With your mind set it should be easy to match the F-22's capabilities because you have the J-10.

I think that is not what he meant...

He meant that you cant count that way... the technology gap with russia is not simply 40 years just because china send the same space craft 40 years later; because the technology that china use to send man into space is not the same level as that of russian 40 years ago, it is far more advanced...

You do realize Russia is one of the world leaders in rocket propulsion and guidence systems right? Have you heard of the S-400 or RD-180?

Anyhow i would be more impressed by China's mid course missile interception if China didn't have Russian propulsion, and guidence systems, but they do. And Just something to ponder, the S-400 has intercepted rockets and cruise missles. So you arn't special. Morover, Russia's Topol-M missle, is able to penatrate any air defence system on earth, which makes China's efforts meaningless.

Do you know the midcourse ABM that china conduct test recently?
The cutting edge technology involved? And that russia has not achieved that yet?

Definately? x10 you just send a man into space 7 years ago we did it 42 years ago, and do you have any idea have far away the moon is.

No offence....

Again u use the same false logic here...

The technology used in chinese space manned vehicle is not at same level with the technology that USSR or USA use 40 years ago ... it is far more advanced; so u cant count that way.

The same way like China build the Bullet Train 40 years later than Japan, doesnt mean that Chinese bullet train technology is left 40 years than that of Japanese, because the tech level used in the current chinese bullet train is far far more advanced than tech that used by Japanese 40 years ago.

 

[oct605032048]

let it go.
There have to be some one stands out guarding the glorious of Great Russian Empire.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

You cannot say that China is 40 years behind Russia because she has sent manned spaceship 40 years later.

By following that logic, i can also state that today's Russia is still behind US of 1969 because she has not accomplished the moon landing mission yet.

 

[maxx]

China makes one of the fastest traines, so what? Does that mean their technologically superior to the US or Russia? Back to topic we're talking military.

Yes. http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...logy-will-export-u-s-after-export-russia.html

Really? DDG Udaloy II-1 or DDG Udaloy-12 here's a list, take your pic: Index of Russian Naval Ship Names

Neither are LPD or air defense DDG. Sure you have the Kirov class, but that's a totally different class of ship. And ship from USSR era, not something Russia currently produce.

Considering China buys Russian technology then copies it in their ships i think it's safe to say we have atleast an equivalent.

Most of the so called copies have some degree of improvements made to them. eg HQ-9, a S-300 copy is now more or less S-400 due to its active radar homing guidance.

SIGNAL - AFCEA's International Journal

China use foreign components in areas they aren't confident in, that's nothing new really. Russia intends to purchase Mistral class LHD, what volume do you think this speaks on the state of Russian ship building industry?

Even if the WS-10 is out Russia is already developing new generation engines but again our current gerneration is already superior. Can China match Russian SAM development? Also do you think the J-10 can match the SU-35BM? As you have read China still imports alot of Military technology, most people just don't know.

China is working on the next generation engine called WS-15, how well will it turn out is anybody's guess but I believe they learn a lot from WS-10 project. Everything else you say is within the realm of possibility.

knock...knock China send its first astronaut into space in 2003! If Russia some how stops all progress and waits 30-40 years than China will catch up in the space program.

Let's see who put a man on the moon next shall we? BTW, China's vision is at 2025-30 and Russia's at 2025. (correction)

 

[conworldus]

Can we just clarify that the ABM test used KT-2 missile, which was developed from DF-21 and has ZERO Russian elements in there? The missile was pioneered by Qian Xueseng, who returned to China from the U.S shortly after China's independence. So much for your Russian guidance system. Our ballistic missile systems have no outside assistance, not from the former USSR and definitely not from Russia. It was developed during the time the Soviet was threatening to nuke China.

KT-2 and your S-400 are totally different things. Your S-400 cannot do mid course interception because its service ceiling is only 30km. Midcourse interception are outside the atmosphere with altitude between 100km-1000km. The truth is there is nothing like KT-2 in Russian arsenal yet.