China rolls out AWACS aircrafts for Pakistan Air Force

[flyinghawkwings]

ZDK-03 has not existed since 2005, there was a prototype of a dish mounted AEW&C, which came to Pakistan also. It was tested, PAF did not liked it entirely, but still jumped into the bandwagon with the pretext to have improvements in the system based on its requirements and some level of ToT, so that it can tone the system as it likes, fulfilling its operational needs.

And now as for price, is anyone sure that 278M was the final price for the deal ?? It may be the initial price, with more funds being allocated later on, or again seller credit would have been very much on the table. Its a very well known fact, that Pakistani defence deals are not very clear, except for the large ones. Similarly, the 278m can be the initial figure, with more funds given.

So logically it can be an AESA, but factually for now its not yet clear which system in reality it is, but hopefully would be confirmed in a few days time.

An AESA radar in a rotodome configuration can work perfectly and has many advantages also, an AESA does not needs to be fixed.

Right, a prototype existed since 2005. That prototype did not use the KJ2000 aesa dish, did it? ZDK03 derived from that original prototype based on improvements the Pakistanis wanted, but it doesn't mean they suddenly microsized the KJ2000 system onto the Y8! Reality doesn't work this way!

And it's interesting that while you accept the AESA speculation from the article, you suddenly question the 70M price tag! I think most of your "thoughts" are wishful thinking, and not reality based!

 

[flyinghawkwings]

For nearly 200M, we can get a western system on top of a turbo prop platform, just like the Erieye on the Saab 2000 platform, as the deal was for 5 system for something slightly above 1B dollars.

You prove my point. Thank you. The Erieye is not even a full AWAC but an AEW, aand it cost 200Milllion each! But it does use AESA!

Yet you believe a full AWAC with AESA can cost less than 70M? Wake up from dream land.

 

[SBD-3]

ZDK-03 has not existed since 2005, there was a prototype of a dish mounted AEW&C, which came to Pakistan also. It was tested, PAF did not liked it entirely, but still jumped into the bandwagon with the pretext to have improvements in the system based on its requirements and some level of ToT, so that it can tone the system as it likes, fulfilling its operational needs.

And now as for price, is anyone sure that 278M was the final price for the deal ?? It may be the initial price, with more funds being allocated later on, or again seller credit would have been very much on the table. Its a very well known fact, that Pakistani defence deals are not very clear, except for the large ones. Similarly, the 278m can be the initial figure, with more funds given.

So logically it can be an AESA, but factually for now its not yet clear which system in reality it is, but hopefully would be confirmed in a few days time.

An AESA radar in a rotodome configuration can work perfectly and has many advantages also, an AESA does not needs to be fixed.

exactly, as flightglobal commented that PAF did require some improvements in the system, and the current system is thought to outrange erieye system that Pakistan has. IMHO the improvement in Y-8 platform would be to enhance its endurance to PAF's requirements similar to saab 2000 i.e. ability of 10Hrs continous monitoring. about the radar....much can be implied when the system becomes operational. but like I said, PAF will never like to reveal the exact requirements of the system. so the technical details are likely to remain undercover for much longer time even after induction of platform. But if it were not an AESA, then PAF would have asked for a good ECM pakage to be installed, as it is almost certain that AWACS will be the primary target for EA/Jamming and being pluse doppler radar, KKE would be more valnurable to EAs amd Jamming rather than Erieye which is an AESA but there is no information on this front as well. But let the Discussion of whether its an AESA or not be postponed til we see the KKE operating but its highly unlikely that it will have TR AESA modules as it would require a larger disk which would not be suitable for an aircraft of the size of Y-8. If it is an AESA, then it will be a single one with rotordome for 360 coverage.(these are my views, Open for discussion)

 

[TaimiKhan]

The Chinese paid Israel 250Million for the A50I. The cost of the airframe itself is 45M, leaving about 205Million just for the AESA/AWAC.

The 250M is a reasonable price for an AESA Awac. I expect the KJ2000 probably cost around 200M. Since the speculation is that the KJ2000 awac system has been transplanted onto the ZDK03, the 70M per ZDK03 does not support this wild speculation. Furthermore, the KJ2000 is a huge plane, whereas a ZDK03 based on the Y8 frame is not. You wouldn't have the space to put the KJ2000 systems onto this much smaller plane.

The ZDK03 is almost certain to be an older PulseDoppler radar with a rotating disk, which would agree with the 70M price tag and chinese reports.

I guess now your are taking more use of emotions then facts and logic.

KJ-2000 is a huge system, with 3 sided AESA radar panels housed in the dish, thus common sense dictates, that KJ-2000 will be having more T/R modules due to its size of the dish and it has 3 sided configuration, so more cost, as it will need more power related requirements, internal seating arrangement, consoles and other processing data would be large, which would all come into the price except for the 45M for just the plane and the retrofitting labor costs and other stuff included in it, so you can't have a specific price for just the AES T/R modules, as large the platform, larger the cost.

And its now pretty much confirmed that ZDK-03 has a rotating dish, while KJ-2000 did not had, but still with a rotating dish, ZDK-03 can have an AESA radar in it, as its a smaller platform, so it can carry smaller sized dish which can house lesser T/R modules and also 2- sided, not 3 sided like the KJ-2000, thus it will be having less consoles and other processing data equipment. So a 100-120 or so is the ideal cost for ZDK-03 kind of platform or take it as high as 150M, not more. Becoz said before, the 278M was the initial price tag, which Pakistan injected in this project, just like JF-17 where Pakistan injected initial money and then later on price tags for the ordered aircraft.

 

[SBD-3]

You prove my point. Thank you. The Erieye is not even a full AWAC but an AEW, aand it cost 200Milllion each! But it does use AESA!

Yet you believe a full AWAC with AESA can cost less than 70M? Wake up from dream land.

I hope you would have seen this video which explains erieye control options pretty comprehensively
YouTube - SAAB - ERIEYE - Explained

 

[Safriz]

Even if its a pulse doppler..Has India the ability to Jam the system? I dont think so.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Right, a prototype existed since 2005. That prototype did not use the KJ2000 aesa dish, did it? ZDK03 derived from that original prototype based on improvements the Pakistanis wanted, but it doesn't mean they suddenly microsized the KJ2000 system onto the Y8! Reality doesn't work this way!

And it's interesting that while you accept the AESA speculation from the article, you suddenly question the 70M price tag! I think most of your "thoughts" are wishful thinking, and not reality based!

Who says ZDK-03 is based from the original prototype ?? Any source to that ?? What if the initial prototype was a normal radar, but PAF asked for an AESA to be housed in there, as its been 4-5 years since the order was placed, what changed in 4-5 years is all for speculation. And as said before, KJ-2000 is something else, while ZDK-03 is something else, the only thing they might be in common would be the AESA related T/R modules, but sizes would differ and so would be the arrangement of the T/R modules. 3 sided array configuration has its own benefits, while a rotating 2-sided configuration would have its own benefits, and i would like to tell you once again, that KJ-2000 and ZDK-03 are not similar platforms or AWACS.

ZDK-03 is an AEW&C, as its gonna be in contact and sending data to ground stations, from where the whole battle space would be monitored and controlled. ZDK-03 has limited command and control functions, its not a full fledged AWACS.

And i am not talking about the article, nor I am believing it, i have my own reasons to believe what i want to, and if you clearly read my posts, i have been showing speculation in this regard as what in reality may be, either an AESA or a PESA or a normal radar configuration. But i am waiting for my sources to confirm what in reality it is, then i will be sure is it AESA or what, but chances of AESA are very strong, for some obvious reasons.

And my thoughts are based on reality and facts, not like yours which seems to be based on wishful thinking and not thinking out of the confined space up there.

You prove my point. Thank you. The Erieye is not even a full AWAC but an AEW, aand it cost 200Milllion each! But it does use AESA!

Yet you believe a full AWAC with AESA can cost less than 70M? Wake up from dream land.

Again, i did not said an AESA based platform can cost 70M, i clearly said, 278M was the initial figure, how much more paid later on is not known as Pakistani defence deals are not very open, especially when it comes to China.

Hope you are getting that point, that we are for now speculating what it could be, with strong chances that it can be an AESA as the world is going towards AESA, thus we can't be taking a step back into the older normal radar configuration.

So, kindly don't impose your thinking on us, we are all here to speculate and do discussion, and seeing what it might be and what not.

 

[flyinghawkwings]

I guess now your are taking more use of emotions then facts and logic.

Speak for yourself. I only argued factually. You're the one engaging in emotional based fantasy speculations!

Despite citing the 200M price tag for a ERIEYE, you still cannot factually accept the 70M price tag for the ZDK03 strongly supports it is not an AESA. This is where you are becoming emotional and unsound logically. The 70M figure is a fact, and unless you have proof otherwise, you should stop engaging in silly speculations of a revised price tag based on the JF17 which has nothing to do with the ZDK!

 

[flyinghawkwings]

I hope you would have seen this video which explains erieye control options pretty comprehensively
YouTube - SAAB - ERIEYE - Explained

Notice in the video, the ERIEYE has to work with ground control operators. A true AWAC doesn't need to work with ground controllers as everything is done in the air!

 

[SBD-3]

Notice in the video, the ERIEYE has to work with ground control operators. A true AWAC doesn't need to work with ground controllers as everything is done in the air!

its a C4I solution where the operators on plane can operate from ground....

 

[TaimiKhan]

Speak for yourself. I only argued factually. You're the one engaging in emotional based fantasy speculations!

Despite citing the 200M price tag for a ERIEYE, you still cannot factually accept the 70M price tag for the ZDK03 strongly supports it is not an AESA. This is where you are becoming emotional and unsound logically. The 70M figure is a fact, and unless you have proof otherwise, you should stop engaging in silly speculations of a revised price tag based on the JF17 which has nothing to do with the ZDK!

Well as i said, you are confining your brain to a specified limit, while we are discussing every possible scenario.

And the JF-17 and ZDK-03 was an example, but may be its hard for your brain to process the example.

Yeah i can't accept the 70M price tag, as its not a price tag. Since we have common sense, thus we can clearly see that even a normal pulse doppler based AEW&C would not come at a 70M price tag.

Here, read an article in the below linked forum and see its talking about deferred payment thing, so its not crystal clear as what 278M was for initially and what are the other details.

http://www.paffalcons.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1159

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/17898-278m-awacs-deal-struck-china.html

And i have no idea from where has it been confirmed that the 278M was for 04 planes, which of these initial reports says it was for 04 planes ??

Anyone has an official figure of 04 planes for 278M ?? All the initial articles / news items said that the deal was for 278M, but number of platforms not specified.

http://in.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-37090320081218

Seen so many articles, none gives the 04 number of planes for 278M, any member or even flyinghawkwings can give us a factual source which says 278M is for 04 planes.

 

[flyinghawkwings]

"Well as i said, you are confining your brain to a specified limit, while we are discussing every possible scenario."

In other words, I am engaging in a discussion based on known facts, while you engage in wishful thinking. You can talk fantasy if you wish but the facts are on my side, and reality is based on facts, not wishful thinking.

 

[TaimiKhan]

In other words, I am engaging in a discussion based on known facts, while you engage in wishful thinking. You can talk fantasy if you wish but the facts are on my side, and reality is based on facts, not wishful thinking.

Give me a reliable, official (if possible, as there is none) source which says that 04 planes are for 278M.

 

[Safriz]

In other words, I am engaging in a discussion based on known facts, while you engage in wishful thinking. You can talk fantasy if you wish but the facts are on my side, and reality is based on facts, not wishful thinking.

Wrong flags?

 

[flyinghawkwings]

Give me a reliable, official (if possible, as there is none) source which says that 04 planes are for 278M.

The price tag is known and reported. You want to dispute this tag yet you offer zero evidence aside from your childish tantrums! I think the burden of proof is on your shoulders in this circumstance!

Until you offer solid evidence why the reported price tag is incorrect, you are wasting my time.