China or India?

[Daneshmand]

I appreciate your post however you have gone into another sphere from what I was asking. Your talking about what it means to be Iranian. Trust me all nations indulge themselves in mixture of history and fact. All nations talk of their greatness. All nations talk of having history going back thousand of years. We all should have pride.

There is nothing wrong with this. From where I come in Pakistan just 20 miles away is site that had great civilization 2,000 years ago. Just 200 miles away in Harappa we have a site with civilization 5,000 years old. About 400 miles south west of me is Mehr Garh which goes back 7,000 years ago and just 30 miles away is site that boasts human culture from 500,000 yes half a million years ago. I would not be lying if I said Pakistan is land which was cradle of civilization. Along with Mesoptamia, China, Indus Valley ( yes that is in Pakistan ) are the birthplace of "civilization" itself.

As I say to many European's when you guy's were trying to figure out how to cover your posterior we were laying the foundation of civilization itself. So, yes we can all spin fabric to wrap ourselves in to feel the glow of greatness.

Mehrgarh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Harappa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sirkap - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Soanian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I also want to clarify this myth peddled by our huge neighbour on the east, India. A country that has more starving people than any othe place on earth, a country with the largest filthiest shanty towns in the world, a country that until recently was known as the land where more people slept like dogs on the streets then in houses. In fact it is more starving than even Africa. In fact Hollywood even makes a movies on this subject.

City of Joy (film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Slumdog Millionaire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Indian poverty levels higher than Pakistan's, says UN report - Telegraph
More of world's poor live in India than in all sub-Saharan Africa, says study | World news | The Guardian

* This is riposte to those Indian's who have been posting cheap comments.

The myth is Pakistan sells itself out. Never. Pakistan has never sold itself out. Pakistan like any other country ( @The Last of us repeats this all the time ) actively pursues it's self interest. Every country is prisoner of it's own unique circumstances. It is like a ledger account. You have your pros and cons.

We don't have oil like Iran or Saudia has. How potent is oil. Well those camel drivers across the PersianGulf have most of the world dancing at their finger tips. You saw the long ques of Western leaders tripping over each other to pay condolances after the death of the Saudi royal. That shows what oil can do. Iran has plenty of oil and gas that you can float on.

India has so many people that if all Indian's pissed into the ocean at the same time the level of the worlds oceans would rise. That body count on that mass scale gives certain gravitas. Huge numbers can have aggregate punch.

Pakistan has neither India's huge numbers nor oil or for that matter any naturel resource. I was looking at Pak electricty production. Beside hydropower we have to rely on imported gas or oil to power the generators. You know how expensive that is? India has plenty of coal to power it's generators. We don't. That is why we are desperate for the gas pipeline.

Anyway Pakistan has charted a very difficult journey in balancing itself in a world dominated by USA. Although nature did not bestow us any favours but we played our hand and managed to get aid from USA and at the same time built nuclear weapons. That was not easy. Go ask Saddam. Go ask yourself. We pulled it off though. Now American's can go to hell.

Think about this. We are a a country with no resources but right under the noses of the American's milked the bastards and at the same time made the bomb. Not a easy task. Of course did we have to compromise? Yes, we did but all the while we secretly kept working on our goal. So please nobody tell us what self interest is or that we sell ourselves. We do what we have to do with the cards that were dealt to us.

Now we are focussing on China because we know our days of milching America are over. Even now though while we tilt over to China we are squeezing them for everything. You already know they complain about us. NATO was in Afghanistan. We supported Taliban for our own reasons whilst milching Americans at the same time. In my eyes even Machavelli would have had a smile on his face.


As regards China/India after my last post I did some reading on the subject. I am actually shocked at what I read in particular the facts. These Indian's have habit have bragging from the rooftops. I have been reading so much bragging about Iran/India by the Indians I actually thought it was a phenomnen. After I looked at thew facts I was bent over laughing. The sober truth is Iran/India relationship is the steam of the piss on cold day.

Here are the facts. Iran imported 5% from India, from China 21%, Turkey 21%. India at 5% is not even worth squat. As regards exports China was 35% and India 19% and even this is oil. So guy's notwithstanding the Ganga dwellers jumping up and down China is by far the largest trading partner already. So what was all this drama the Indian's make? Nothing. China is already ahead big talk asides.

Of course trade is not the only aspect. Sometimes strategic relations can be more important. However I am 100% sure Iran would never allow the use of its land by India against Pakistan. So no worries there. I am seriously, surprised about the minor Indian profile on the Iranian trading flows. Here is the diagrams. I strongly suggest the Pakistani members to look at the much vaunted Indian hand in Iran. Even Turkey is far ahead of India and you know how Turks/Iranian get on.

OEC: Iran (IRN) Profile of Exports, Imports and Trade Partners

Have a look at the bar graph for imports. China, Turkey, South Korea and Germany have it carved. End of sanctions is bad, bad, bad news for India, If under sanction regime this is how the bar looks after the sanctions end those countries like Germany, France, Japan, South Koree are going to be winners because US restraint has held them back.

I fully understand what you want to say. And sure, every nation has the right to claim greatness and history. That was not the point I was hoping to make.

The point I was hoping to make was that for Iranians these issues are very much part of the present psyche. You can go to the most backward village in Iran, and talk to a completely illiterate old man and he will start reciting the epics of Kaveh and Arash as if these two were his village fellows. This then influences the way any Iranian sees the world around himself. And this is separate from religion and cuts through the different linguistic groups living in Iran. I do not know for example how much an illiterate Pakistani villager relates to Taxilla civilization or to Harappa and how much mythology plays into the way an average Pakistani sees the world and finds his identity in.

I know from my interaction from different people, that people from China or Japan or Italy are more amenable to the way Iranians interpret themselves and the world around them. Through a series of national mythologies which are not taught in schools or read in books but learned from grandmothers and grandfathers in an oral tradition as bed time stories. For these kind of nations, such epics and their real and mythical histories are very much alive and are not seen as archaeological finds or museum treasures. It is part of who they are. And it is how they think.

This then causes them to see the kind of question of you raised to be misinterpreted and misunderstood. My intention was to remove this misunderstanding. I know that your intention in raising the question was genuine, but when posed at Iranian public, the question raises misunderstanding since it goes against the fundamentals on which Iranian identity rests.

As for why Pakistan "selling itself" (in your words, not mine), the reason has much less to do with oil or numbers and percentages. It has more to do, with how a nation perceives itself and its potentials. I can assure you that Iranians were thinking pretty much the same in 19th century before the oil was discovered or when an Iranian by the name of Rais Ali Dilvari was fighting the British when the British empire was at its peak while Iran itself was pisss poor. The resistance Iranians put whether when they had to face Russians, British, Portuguese, Ottomans and nowadays Americans against all odds and most of the time lacking any geopolitical or economic sense, is actually centuries old and at its core is because of the Iranian perceptions I explained above. Whether on this forum during discussions, or at national level the geopolitical policies of Iran are all influenced by this particular Iranian identity and perception. Can you say the same perceptual identity exists in the minds of Pakistanis and Pakistani state when dealing with the world? The perceptual identity that Pakistanis learned from their grandmothers?

This is the reason you see the action of Pakistani state as "selling out" because its policies are pragmatic for the moment and make economic and geopolitical sense for the moment but lack the longer historical objectives and therefore later on are termed as "selling out".

This sense of identity has helped Iranians to bide their time and outlast many empires and countries surviving them all. So when this identity comes under any form of attack or doubt whether direct or indirect, Iranians get angry since, they perceive such a doubt or attack as an attack on their current existence (as opposed merely on their "historical glory").

Pakistan too has great potentials and resources. I do not know every thing about Pakistan but for instance I know, one of the world's largest deposits of copper is in Pakistan. Price of copper in the past decade has hovered between 5 thousand to 10 thousand dollars per tonne and if this copper is used in value adding industry for example by producing wires or industrial products, the same copper is going to cost tens of thousands of dollars per tonne. Has Pakistan developed a copper industry? Is it the fault of Iran or India or United States or China or Afghanistan that Pakistan despite having a large population providing for a large labor force and having huge copper deposits, has done nothing to make of it? Should Pakistan continue to "choose" between United States, China, India and Saudi Arabia instead of developing its own identity and working up its own resources?

I think you should be honest with yourself. That is the first step.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Im treasures. It is part of who they are. And it is how they think.

This then causes them to see the kind of question of you raised to be misinterpreted and misunderstood. My intention was to remove this misunderstanding. I know that your intention in raising the question was genuine, but when posed at Iranian public, the question raises misunderstanding since it goes against the fundamentals on which Iranian identity rests.

As for why Pakistan "selling itself" (in your words, not mine), the reason has much less to do with oil or numbers and percentages. It has more to do, with how a nation perceives itself and its potentials. I can assure you that Iranians were thinking pretty much the same in 19th century before the oil was discovered or when an Iranian by the name of Rais Ali Dilvari was fighting the British when the British empire was at its peak while Iran itself was pisss poor. The resistance Iranians put whether when they had to face Russians, British, Portuguese, Ottomans and nowadays Americans against all odds and most of the time lacking any geopolitical or economic sense, is actually centuries old and at its core is because of the Iranian perceptions I explained above. Whether on this forum during discussions, or at national level the geopolitical policies of Iran are all influenced by this particular Iranian identity and perception. Can you say the same perceptual identity exists in the minds of Pakistanis and Pakistani state when dealing with the world? The perceptual identity that Pakistanis learned from their grandmothers?

This is the reason you see the action of Pakistani state as "selling out" because its policies are pragmatic for the moment and make economic and geopolitical sense for the moment but lack the longer historical objectives and therefore later on are termed as "selling out".

This sense of identity has helped Iranians to bide their time and outlast many empires and countries surviving them all. So when this identity comes under any form of attack or doubt whether direct or indirect, Iranians get angry since, they perceive such a doubt or attack as an attack on their current existence (as opposed merely on their "historical glory").
.

Very, very interesting post. Daneshmand. I was getting bored of PDF but you put forward some very good thinking. Yes, I will agree with you that the Iranian identity is more formed and has clear cut profile within and out of Iran. I will reply tomorrow to you.

 

[Daneshmand]

Very, very interesting post. Daneshmand. I was getting bored of PDF but you put forward some very good thinking. Yes, I will agree with you that the Iranian identity is more formed and has clear cut profile within and out of Iran. I will reply tomorrow to you.

Thanks. Please take your time.

 

[Kaniska]

Yes you are right I agree. Just keep in mind, don't bragging about it. Just think about how Iran should get benefits relationship with Pakistan in new chapter. Pakistan does favor to Iran for not allowing in Yemen crisis.

If you think that Pakistan do not go to Yemen to appease Iran, then it is a mistake that you done...I felt that Pakistan has not gone to Yemen because, it is not Pakistan's issue what is happening in Iran...Why do you want to discredit your Gov which has taken one of the best decision in your recent histroy by saying that you have done it for Iran...At least be brave to say that You have taken some steps for your people only....

 

[Daneshmand]

If you think that Pakistan do not go to Yemen to appease Iran, then it is a mistake that you done...I felt that Pakistan has not gone to Yemen because, it is not Pakistan's issue what is happening in Iran...Why do you want to discredit your Gov which has taken one of the best decision in your recent histroy by saying that you have done it for Iran...At least be brave to say that You have taken some steps for your people only....

The reason is that the national identity and unity is not strong enough to allow for confidence on both individual level as well on national level needed to permit for such a proclamation. A need is being felt to attribute everything good and bad to a foreign identity. And this is not only a Pakistani problem. This problem exists in many countries. Specially those with colonial past.

 

[Soulspeek]

Let me help you get a hard on. Iran will side with China. India will not get any major contracts or access to markets. Pakistan will be the epicenter of the great block between Iran and China. All trade between China & Iran will go through Pakistan. In 15 Years time, Pakistan will become a superpower and will thrash India in all fronts.

Feeling relaxed now?

I would rather hear from the Iranian's or not at all. And don't tell me both will prevail. Always one party ends up having greater say. It is never 50/50. Does not work like that in real life,

 

[al_asad_al_mulk]

and that long thing in other hand will also look good up yours

No thanks may be that one for here self as a toy..

 

[Madali]

I choose India...if the topic is about food. Is it about food?

Not to say I don't like Chinese food, I love Chinese food, but I think India still beats it by an inch. However, we don't really have to choose because instead of going for Indian or Chinese...we can have delicious indo-chinese food! For example, Manchurian chicken, a food that is neither really Chinese or really Indian, but a mixture of the two (created by Chinese restaurant in India). Manchurian chicken is absolutely amazing.

This thread was about food, right?

 

[Masīd]

I fully understand what you want to say. And sure, every nation has the right to claim greatness and history. That was not the point I was hoping to make.

The point I was hoping to make was that for Iranians these issues are very much part of the present psyche. You can go to the most backward village in Iran, and talk to a completely illiterate old man and he will start reciting the epics of Kaveh and Arash as if these two were his village fellows. This then influences the way any Iranian sees the world around himself. And this is separate from religion and cuts through the different linguistic groups living in Iran. I do not know for example how much an illiterate Pakistani villager relates to Taxilla civilization or to Harappa and how much mythology plays into the way an average Pakistani sees the world and finds his identity in.

I know from my interaction from different people, that people from China or Japan or Italy are more amenable to the way Iranians interpret themselves and the world around them. Through a series of national mythologies which are not taught in schools or read in books but learned from grandmothers and grandfathers in an oral tradition as bed time stories. For these kind of nations, such epics and their real and mythical histories are very much alive and are not seen as archaeological finds or museum treasures. It is part of who they are. And it is how they think.

This then causes them to see the kind of question of you raised to be misinterpreted and misunderstood. My intention was to remove this misunderstanding. I know that your intention in raising the question was genuine, but when posed at Iranian public, the question raises misunderstanding since it goes against the fundamentals on which Iranian identity rests.

As for why Pakistan "selling itself" (in your words, not mine), the reason has much less to do with oil or numbers and percentages. It has more to do, with how a nation perceives itself and its potentials. I can assure you that Iranians were thinking pretty much the same in 19th century before the oil was discovered or when an Iranian by the name of Rais Ali Dilvari was fighting the British when the British empire was at its peak while Iran itself was pisss poor. The resistance Iranians put whether when they had to face Russians, British, Portuguese, Ottomans and nowadays Americans against all odds and most of the time lacking any geopolitical or economic sense, is actually centuries old and at its core is because of the Iranian perceptions I explained above. Whether on this forum during discussions, or at national level the geopolitical policies of Iran are all influenced by this particular Iranian identity and perception. Can you say the same perceptual identity exists in the minds of Pakistanis and Pakistani state when dealing with the world? The perceptual identity that Pakistanis learned from their grandmothers?

This is the reason you see the action of Pakistani state as "selling out" because its policies are pragmatic for the moment and make economic and geopolitical sense for the moment but lack the longer historical objectives and therefore later on are termed as "selling out".

This sense of identity has helped Iranians to bide their time and outlast many empires and countries surviving them all. So when this identity comes under any form of attack or doubt whether direct or indirect, Iranians get angry since, they perceive such a doubt or attack as an attack on their current existence (as opposed merely on their "historical glory").

Pakistan too has great potentials and resources. I do not know every thing about Pakistan but for instance I know, one of the world's largest deposits of copper is in Pakistan. Price of copper in the past decade has hovered between 5 thousand to 10 thousand dollars per tonne and if this copper is used in value adding industry for example by producing wires or industrial products, the same copper is going to cost tens of thousands of dollars per tonne. Has Pakistan developed a copper industry? Is it the fault of Iran or India or United States or China or Afghanistan that Pakistan despite having a large population providing for a large labor force and having huge copper deposits, has done nothing to make of it? Should Pakistan continue to "choose" between United States, China, India and Saudi Arabia instead of developing its own identity and working up its own resources?

I think you should be honest with yourself. That is the first step.

Reko Diq is a small town in Chagai District,Balochistan, Pakistan, in a desert area,close to Pakistan's border with Iran and Afghanistan. It is famous because of its vast Gold and Copper Reserves and its believe to be the world 5th largest some says that if extracted it could fetch around 260$ to 280$ billion..on our side leaders lack vision their policies are of short term i.e for next election,they work on those projects which can have a ground signature & could be completed in short period of time,their survival is on loans for increasing reserves,for managing budgets and to start work on ill planned projects like BRT's...if these politicians pay some attention & work on to extract natural resources from this land then in long term we won't need take loans from IMF,WB etc..I hope some sense will prevail !!!!

 

[haman10]

I fully understand what you want to say. And sure, every nation has the right to claim greatness and history. That was not the point I was hoping to make.

The point I was hoping to make was that for Iranians these issues are very much part of the present psyche. You can go to the most backward village in Iran, and talk to a completely illiterate old man and he will start reciting the epics of Kaveh and Arash as if these two were his village fellows. This then influences the way any Iranian sees the world around himself. And this is separate from religion and cuts through the different linguistic groups living in Iran. I do not know for example how much an illiterate Pakistani villager relates to Taxilla civilization or to Harappa and how much mythology plays into the way an average Pakistani sees the world and finds his identity in.

I know from my interaction from different people, that people from China or Japan or Italy are more amenable to the way Iranians interpret themselves and the world around them. Through a series of national mythologies which are not taught in schools or read in books but learned from grandmothers and grandfathers in an oral tradition as bed time stories. For these kind of nations, such epics and their real and mythical histories are very much alive and are not seen as archaeological finds or museum treasures. It is part of who they are. And it is how they think.

This then causes them to see the kind of question of you raised to be misinterpreted and misunderstood. My intention was to remove this misunderstanding. I know that your intention in raising the question was genuine, but when posed at Iranian public, the question raises misunderstanding since it goes against the fundamentals on which Iranian identity rests.

As for why Pakistan "selling itself" (in your words, not mine), the reason has much less to do with oil or numbers and percentages. It has more to do, with how a nation perceives itself and its potentials. I can assure you that Iranians were thinking pretty much the same in 19th century before the oil was discovered or when an Iranian by the name of Rais Ali Dilvari was fighting the British when the British empire was at its peak while Iran itself was pisss poor. The resistance Iranians put whether when they had to face Russians, British, Portuguese, Ottomans and nowadays Americans against all odds and most of the time lacking any geopolitical or economic sense, is actually centuries old and at its core is because of the Iranian perceptions I explained above. Whether on this forum during discussions, or at national level the geopolitical policies of Iran are all influenced by this particular Iranian identity and perception. Can you say the same perceptual identity exists in the minds of Pakistanis and Pakistani state when dealing with the world? The perceptual identity that Pakistanis learned from their grandmothers?

This is the reason you see the action of Pakistani state as "selling out" because its policies are pragmatic for the moment and make economic and geopolitical sense for the moment but lack the longer historical objectives and therefore later on are termed as "selling out".

This sense of identity has helped Iranians to bide their time and outlast many empires and countries surviving them all. So when this identity comes under any form of attack or doubt whether direct or indirect, Iranians get angry since, they perceive such a doubt or attack as an attack on their current existence (as opposed merely on their "historical glory").

Pakistan too has great potentials and resources. I do not know every thing about Pakistan but for instance I know, one of the world's largest deposits of copper is in Pakistan. Price of copper in the past decade has hovered between 5 thousand to 10 thousand dollars per tonne and if this copper is used in value adding industry for example by producing wires or industrial products, the same copper is going to cost tens of thousands of dollars per tonne. Has Pakistan developed a copper industry? Is it the fault of Iran or India or United States or China or Afghanistan that Pakistan despite having a large population providing for a large labor force and having huge copper deposits, has done nothing to make of it? Should Pakistan continue to "choose" between United States, China, India and Saudi Arabia instead of developing its own identity and working up its own resources?

I think you should be honest with yourself. That is the first step.

@Serpentine @haviZsultan @rahi2357 @kollang @Kiarash @Desert Fox

good read

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I choose India...if the topic is about food. Is it about food?

Not to say I don't like Chinese food, I love Chinese food, but I think India still beats it by an inch. However, we don't really have to choose because instead of going for Indian or Chinese...we can have delicious indo-chinese food! For example, Manchurian chicken, a food that is neither really Chinese or really Indian, but a mixture of the two (created by Chinese restaurant in India). Manchurian chicken is absolutely amazing.

This thread was about food, right?

Well then....... may I wish you a life-time supply of Manchurian Chicken !!!
It is in fact a dish invented by an Indian Chinese Restaurant owner in Bombay called Eddie Wong.

While you can wish for me a lifetime supply of Jalebi (Zulbia); I have a sweet tooth after all
Which I'll have after a hearty meal of Chelo Kabab with Tadigh Rice.

 

[BordoEnes]

I just love how this turned into a dickk measuring contest at the drop of a coin. Litteraly only a handfull Iranian members responded like the OP requested with the overwhelming majority being Indian and Pak forumers. This somehow turned into another Pak.vs.India thread. Dont you people have practicly the whole forum to do this insted of the Iranian section?

 

[dray]

Hello my Iranian friends. I am just curious about how Iranians feel about China and India. China is rising power and no dobut will be knocking at Iran's door soon. I know India is getting closer to US and Isreal.

But I am wondering between China and India whose influence will previail in the long term on Iran? Of course you would want both but but if push came to shove. Take a look at India. When it came to choosing between USA and Iran India chose USA based on it's interests.

Look forward to your views guys.

@Serpentine

Are you 'asking' Iranians or trying to convince them to choose China over India?

On topic: Iran has shown enough spine to remain a self-respecting sovereign state in a true sense and not becoming a vassal state of one country or other, they don't need to choose sides.

 

[New]

Hello my Iranian friends. I am just curious about how Iranians feel about China and India. China is rising power and no dobut will be knocking at Iran's door soon. I know India is getting closer to US and Isreal.

But I am wondering between China and India whose influence will previail in the long term on Iran? Of course you would want both but but if push came to shove. Take a look at India. When it came to choosing between USA and Iran India chose USA based on it's interests.

Look forward to your views guys.

@Serpentine

My dear friend to choose one over another is not how the world really works, to discuss a comprehensive answer to your question, lets go a brief into deep history, I believe there you can find not just your answer to this question, but also answers to many other questions as well.
Traditionally Iranian sphere of influence from the very beginning of its history has been the vast lands of middle Asia, china, south Asia and specially the subcontinent of India, hence you can visibly find the footprints of Iranian culture in those regions.
Many years ago, Jawaharlal Nehru, the real political funder of today’s India, in his letters to his daughter, Indira, from the English prisons insisted the fact that in whole history no country has ever impacted another country like Iranian impacts on India. Persian has long been the royal and the cultural language in India, leading to the vast number of Persian speaking Indians which is even comparable to the total number of Iranian Persian speakers, and as Nehru writes, if it wasn’t for the full force of the British colonialism, maybe Persian was the official language in India even at this day.
Even some of the most outstanding architectural heritage of India is believed to be greatly influenced by Iranian culture. As an example the Taj Mahal that is believed by Will Durant as the most beautiful monument in whole the world is called as the reincarnation of Iranian spirit in the Indian substance by Rene Grousset the French historian.
Pakistan existence was originally funded on the noble and the genuine ideologies of a Persian poet like Mohammad Iqbal Lahouri, and even the naming of the country was even originated from the Persian origin. Kashmir was called the little Iran and the history still remembers the Persian Ilyas Shahi rule in Bengal.
The same mutual close relations can also be tracked in the history of Iran, china relations. The infamous Silk Road hasn’t just been a commercial gateway, but also a cultural and artistic gate, that linked Iranian Zarathustra, Mitra and Manichaeism religious and philosophical ideology into the Fareast. Even the Christianity and Islam has reached those lands in it’s Iranian form, ie the Nestorian Christianity and the Iranian Islam.
Millions of Chinese Muslims during centuries have prayed in Farsi and even they are continuing to pray in Farsi language at this moment. The biggest Chinese mosque in Hang Chuoi is holding Farsi inscriptions and as Ibn Battuta the famous Arab traveler mentions in his trip to china memoirs, half a century after the death of Iranian poet Sa’adi, his poems are being sang by the Chinese singers. The very same facts are also reported by an assessment of Sino-Iranica relations in the eve of 19’th century by an American university.
All I wanna mention here my friend, is the fact that the civilizations are not formed on the ideology of choosing one over another, but as Machiavelli says, keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

[/QUOTE]

I fully understand what you want to say. And sure, every nation has the right to claim greatness and history. That was not the point I was hoping to make.

The point I was hoping to make was that for Iranians these issues are very much part of the present psyche. You can go to the most backward village in Iran, and talk to a completely illiterate old man and he will start reciting the epics of Kaveh and Arash as if these two were his village fellows. This then influences the way any Iranian sees the world around himself. And this is separate from religion and cuts through the different linguistic groups living in Iran. I do not know for example how much an illiterate Pakistani villager relates to Taxilla civilization or to Harappa and how much mythology plays into the way an average Pakistani sees the world and finds his identity in.

I know from my interaction from different people, that people from China or Japan or Italy are more amenable to the way Iranians interpret themselves and the world around them. Through a series of national mythologies which are not taught in schools or read in books but learned from grandmothers and grandfathers in an oral tradition as bed time stories. For these kind of nations, such epics and their real and mythical histories are very much alive and are not seen as archaeological finds or museum treasures. It is part of who they are. And it is how they think.

This then causes them to see the kind of question of you raised to be misinterpreted and misunderstood. My intention was to remove this misunderstanding. I know that your intention in raising the question was genuine, but when posed at Iranian public, the question raises misunderstanding since it goes against the fundamentals on which Iranian identity rests.

The answer to the question as regards the Pakistan villager and Taxila is no..The blunt answer is not only a no but even the educated have little interest. The reasons are complex and beyond the remit of this thread. The majority have a precarious identity revolving around Islam. It is one dimensional and lacks any grounding. However my question did not relate to the question of identity, folklore, myth and other abstract concepts.

My question related more to the business side of things. The sanction regime had created a distorted matrix within which Iran operated. Looking forward to non sanction regime I wondered who was going to gain or lose. This thread was triggered by what I was reading in another thread about Iran considering buying Chinese fighters.

Frankly it was a stupid question. Instead of asking this question I should have just done some reading on the subject. I know Iranian's are too savvy to bust he Indian ego so I am not least surprised by the answers I have recieved. They all are complex, diplomatic and don't even go anyhere near answering the question.

For example when Iran decides to buy fighters I doubt if past Persian history or what the Ianian grandmothers told is going into informing the decision making. Decision will be based on merits of the case. That is why I say I this question I asked was stupid and lazy of me. Most of the relevant info is available anyway.

I guess I had been fooled by the daily tripe the Indian's give about Iran/India. When I checked the trade flows India is just a tiny footnote on the Iranian economic profile. I seriously was surprised. I thought the Indian's have a huge involvement in Iran. The figures say otherwise. China is far ahead of India so I already know where this is going.

As for why Pakistan "selling itself" (in your words, not mine), the reason has much less to do with oil or numbers and percentages.

With due respect I never said "Pakistan has ever sold itself". I said quite the contrary. Please read my post again. Perhaps I failed to convey what I wanted in a poor manner. Indian's often accuse us of having sold ourselves. Pakistan did like other countries of the world to achieve it's goals. Pakistan milked America. Pakistan while recieving aid money right under their noses built nuclear weapons. To achieve our goals you give little and take little. We played USA like big teddy bear and got what we wanted. Hell even now while USA is in Afghanistan they pay us while we support Taliban.

It has more to do, with how a nation perceives itself and its potentials. I can assure you that Iranians were thinking pretty much the same in 19th century before the oil was discovered or when an Iranian by the name of Rais Ali Dilvari was fighting the British when the British empire was at its peak while Iran itself was pisss poor. The resistance Iranians put whether when they had to face Russians, British, Portuguese, Ottomans and nowadays Americans against all odds and most of the time lacking any geopolitical or economic sense, is actually centuries old and at its core is because of the Iranian perceptions I explained above. Whether on this forum during discussions, or at national level the geopolitical policies of Iran are all influenced by this particular Iranian identity and perception.

My friend I love Iranian culture, language. I do so because of the massive impact it has had on Pakistan. My ethnic language belongs to the East Iranic group. Persian was dominant in what is Pakistan as late as 1850. You already know thatduring times of Archaemenid Persian the region that is Pakistan was composed of Persian satrapies. All this I respect. All this is the reason why I give Iranians more time than many other members in this forum. I also know that Iran is our neighbour and in the long run we are going to have to resolve our issues.

Now with this qualification out of way let me tell you in in no uncertain terms I entirely disagree with you there. In fact no offence what you write here is absurd orchestra where non of tunes match. The region that is now Pakistan did morte fighting against the British invaders than all of South Asia. The Pashtuns on the frontier were never subdued. The Sindhi's fought bravely. The reality is economic power is military power. Military power will if applied in sufficient dosage defeat anybody. Go ask the Germans.

In fact why not you remind yourself of the Anglo-Russian invasion in 1943 of Iran. Please do tell me how long it took for Iran to be subdued. Also please do tell me which Battle of Stalingrad the Iranians fought against Russian/British invaders. Don't forget both those countries had most their forces fighting Nazi Germany. In fact the so called British force was mostly Indian yet they drove through Iran like a stroll in the park.

Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Allies then stayed in Iran for next 3 years. I might add here even after the British left Iran in 1947 in effect Iran was de facto British colony and only independent de jure. The way the Anglo-Saxon powers ( USA/UK ) treated Iran was nothing more than a fiefdom where they got to extract the oil under preferantial conditions and changed Iranian government with the ease I change my underpants. I am sure your aware of Dr Mossadegh.

Mohammad Mosaddegh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The treatment by British of so called independent Iran revealed the truth that Iran in fact was a vassel state. European empoyees were beyond Iran law and could do anything. Furthermore Iranians living in their own country were being treated as second class citizens. On top of this more of the oil profit was going to Britan then Iran.

"Britain was receiving more from AIOC than Iran.[16] In addition, conditions for Iranian oil workers and their families were very bad. The director of Iran's Petroleum Institute wrote that
Wages were 50 cents a day. There was no vacation pay, no sick leave, no disability compensation. The workers lived in a shanty town called Kaghazabad, or Paper City, without running water or electricity, ... In winter the earth flooded and became a flat, perspiring lake. The mud in town was knee-deep, and ... when the rains subsided, clouds of nipping, small-winged flies rose from the stagnant water to fill the nostrils ....


Summer was worse. ... The heat was torrid ... sticky and unrelenting—while the wind and sandstorms shipped off the desert hot as a blower. The dwellings of Kaghazabad, cobbled from rusted oil drums hammered flat, turned into sweltering ovens. ... In every crevice hung the foul, sulfurous stench of burning oil .... in Kaghazad there was nothing—not a tea shop, not a bath, not a single tree. The tiled reflecting pool and shaded central square that were part of every Iranian town, ... were missing here. The unpaved alleyways were emporiums for rats.[17]

Anglo-Persian Oil Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Reza on his visit to the oil fields was struck by large numbers of British and Indian employees amounting to half the workforce of 29,000 and their ( Indian ) preferantial treatment and accomodation. He saw no signs of prosperity outside the company towns. The journalist Ali Dashti later claimed that Anglo Persian Oil Company treated Iranians as badly as East India company had treated Indians 200 years before"

Days of God; The Revolution in Iran and it's consequences by James Buchan.

Days of God: The Revolution in Iran and Its Consequences - James Buchan - Google Books

I need not go any father. If you doubt my contention that Iran was pseudo-sovereign state from early 20th century all the way to the Iranian Revolution in 1979. In fact the Iranian character of beong strongly resistant and suspicious of external countries is product of humliating of great people in pre 1979 Iran. This experiance still rimgs in the Iranian mentality today. In fact it to my mind also explains the dichotomy of a secular people being hostahe to a theocratic clergy. The clergy offer a vent against the West which feeds on the 20th century suffering at hands of imperial powers.

Can you say the same perceptual identity exists in the minds of Pakistanis and Pakistani state when dealing with the world? The perceptual identity that Pakistanis learned from their grandmothers?

No. We suffer from post colonial syndrome you suffer from post neo-colonial syndrome. Same thing dressed in differant clothes.

This is the reason you see the action of Pakistani state as "selling out" because its policies are pragmatic for the moment and make economic and geopolitical sense for the moment but lack the longer historical objectives and therefore later on are termed as "selling out".

I am big critic of the Pakistani state but please refer to earlier. Pakistan has never sold it's interest. It compromised to get what it wanted. Even Japan does that. Even Germany do that. We all do it.

This sense of identity has helped Iranians to bide their time and outlast many empires and countries surviving them all. So when this identity comes under any form of attack or doubt whether direct or indirect, Iranians get angry since, they perceive such a doubt or attack as an attack on their current existence (as opposed merely on their "historical glory").

I will tackle this some other time.

Pakistan too has great potentials and resources. I do not know every thing about Pakistan but for instance I know, one of the world's largest deposits of copper is in Pakistan. Price of copper in the past decade has hovered between 5 thousand to 10 thousand dollars per tonne and if this copper is used in value adding industry for example by producing wires or industrial products, the same copper is going to cost tens of thousands of dollars per tonne. Has Pakistan developed a copper industry?

The only, repeat the only resources Pakistan has is (i) the people and (ii) the mighty River Indus. Nothing else. This copper you are on about is poor grade, in the most remote, most volatile region of Pakistan and right next to Afghan border thus making it very unattractive to investors. Even if it came on full steam we would only earn maybe $1 billion dollars max. It is cents, just cents in a country of 195 million people. This is typical bull that lot of ignorent Pakistani's start running around screaming and declaring headlines.

I give you one example. For some time they have been screming about Pak having the largest coal reserves in the world. Well this is rubbish. In my garden the soil is red. It has traces of hematite. Shall I declare I have masive iron resources in my garden? That coal in Pakistan is of such por quality - quality measured by amount of energy per unit that it is almost not even worth taking out of the ground. Which explains why it is still safe under the ground. Maybe as energy price goes up and technology improves some Chinese company might risk trying to invest dollar to make dollar and a two cents profit. This is the realiy.

I will address this later with a comparison of Iranian economy with Pakistan's. I will just posat facts and leave the reader to make conclusions.

Is it the fault of Iran or India or United States or China or Afghanistan that Pakistan despite having a large population providing for a large labor force and having huge copper deposits, has done nothing to make of it? Should Pakistan continue to "choose" between United States, China, India and Saudi Arabia instead of developing its own identity and working up its own resources?

May I ask who blamed India or chose USA??? I am somewhat confused about this. Please refer to previous paragraph.

I think you should be honest with yourself. That is the first step.

I am. I try. The reality is Iran is Zero. Pakistan is Minus one . Afghanistan is Minus 10. Ditto for rest. Only the West or Far East has done well. The only Muslim country going anywhere is Turkey. The rest are just line of Zeros.

Please do not think the respect I have for Iran which flows from her great past. Cyrus, Darious, the Persian language and it's impact on Pakistan prevents me from seeing the reality as it is. I don't enjoy saying lot of things. Trust me I have been going softy softy because of my respect for Persia.

However I felt I could not allow some of your comments go unchallenged. We all have pride.

Ps. We are not your enemy. You are not our enemy. The sooner our people realize this the better. Outsiders came and did us all in. This is the reality. We need to learn this.