China or India?

[Daneshmand]

The answer to the question as regards the Pakistan villager and Taxila is no..The blunt answer is not only a no but even the educated have little interest. The reasons are complex and beyond the remit of this thread. The majority have a precarious identity revolving around Islam. It is one dimensional and lacks any grounding. However my question did not relate to the question of identity, folklore, myth and other abstract concepts.

My question related more to the business side of things. The sanction regime had created a distorted matrix within which Iran operated. Looking forward to non sanction regime I wondered who was going to gain or lose. This thread was triggered by what I was reading in another thread about Iran considering buying Chinese fighters.

Frankly it was a stupid question. Instead of asking this question I should have just done some reading on the subject. I know Iranian's are too savvy to bust he Indian ego so I am not least surprised by the answers I have recieved. They all are complex, diplomatic and don't even go anyhere near answering the question.

For example when Iran decides to buy fighters I doubt if past Persian history or what the Ianian grandmothers told is going into informing the decision making. Decision will be based on merits of the case. That is why I say I this question I asked was stupid and lazy of me. Most of the relevant info is available anyway.

I guess I had been fooled by the daily tripe the Indian's give about Iran/India. When I checked the trade flows India is just a tiny footnote on the Iranian economic profile. I seriously was surprised. I thought the Indian's have a huge involvement in Iran. The figures say otherwise. China is far ahead of India so I already know where this is going.



With due respect I never said "Pakistan has ever sold itself". I said quite the contrary. Please read my post again. Perhaps I failed to convey what I wanted in a poor manner. Indian's often accuse us of having sold ourselves. Pakistan did like other countries of the world to achieve it's goals. Pakistan milked America. Pakistan while recieving aid money right under their noses built nuclear weapons. To achieve our goals you give little and take little. We played USA like big teddy bear and got what we wanted. Hell even now while USA is in Afghanistan they pay us while we support Taliban.



My friend I love Iranian culture, language. I do so because of the massive impact it has had on Pakistan. My ethnic language belongs to the East Iranic group. Persian was dominant in what is Pakistan as late as 1850. You already know thatduring times of Archaemenid Persian the region that is Pakistan was composed of Persian satrapies. All this I respect. All this is the reason why I give Iranians more time than many other members in this forum. I also know that Iran is our neighbour and in the long run we are going to have to resolve our issues.

Now with this qualification out of way let me tell you in in no uncertain terms I entirely disagree with you there. In fact no offence what you write here is absurd orchestra where non of tunes match. The region that is now Pakistan did morte fighting against the British invaders than all of South Asia. The Pashtuns on the frontier were never subdued. The Sindhi's fought bravely. The reality is economic power is military power. Military power will if applied in sufficient dosage defeat anybody. Go ask the Germans.

In fact why not you remind yourself of the Anglo-Russian invasion in 1943 of Iran. Please do tell me how long it took for Iran to be subdued. Also please do tell me which Battle of Stalingrad the Iranians fought against Russian/British invaders. Don't forget both those countries had most their forces fighting Nazi Germany. In fact the so called British force was mostly Indian yet they drove through Iran like a stroll in the park.

Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Allies then stayed in Iran for next 3 years. I might add here even after the British left Iran in 1947 in effect Iran was de facto British colony and only independent de jure. The way the Anglo-Saxon powers ( USA/UK ) treated Iran was nothing more than a fiefdom where they got to extract the oil under preferantial conditions and changed Iranian government with the ease I change my underpants. I am sure your aware of Dr Mossadegh.

Mohammad Mosaddegh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The treatment by British of so called independent Iran revealed the truth that Iran in fact was a vassel state. European empoyees were beyond Iran law and could do anything. Furthermore Iranians living in their own country were being treated as second class citizens. On top of this more of the oil profit was going to Britan then Iran.

"Britain was receiving more from AIOC than Iran.[16] In addition, conditions for Iranian oil workers and their families were very bad. The director of Iran's Petroleum Institute wrote that
Wages were 50 cents a day. There was no vacation pay, no sick leave, no disability compensation. The workers lived in a shanty town called Kaghazabad, or Paper City, without running water or electricity, ... In winter the earth flooded and became a flat, perspiring lake. The mud in town was knee-deep, and ... when the rains subsided, clouds of nipping, small-winged flies rose from the stagnant water to fill the nostrils ....


Summer was worse. ... The heat was torrid ... sticky and unrelenting—while the wind and sandstorms shipped off the desert hot as a blower. The dwellings of Kaghazabad, cobbled from rusted oil drums hammered flat, turned into sweltering ovens. ... In every crevice hung the foul, sulfurous stench of burning oil .... in Kaghazad there was nothing—not a tea shop, not a bath, not a single tree. The tiled reflecting pool and shaded central square that were part of every Iranian town, ... were missing here. The unpaved alleyways were emporiums for rats.[17]

Anglo-Persian Oil Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Reza on his visit to the oil fields was struck by large numbers of British and Indian employees amounting to half the workforce of 29,000 and their ( Indian ) preferantial treatment and accomodation. He saw no signs of prosperity outside the company towns. The journalist Ali Dashti later claimed that Anglo Persian Oil Company treated Iranians as badly as East India company had treated Indians 200 years before"

Days of God; The Revolution in Iran and it's consequences by James Buchan.

Days of God: The Revolution in Iran and Its Consequences - James Buchan - Google Books

I need not go any father. If you doubt my contention that Iran was pseudo-sovereign state from early 20th century all the way to the Iranian Revolution in 1979. In fact the Iranian character of beong strongly resistant and suspicious of external countries is product of humliating of great people in pre 1979 Iran. This experiance still rimgs in the Iranian mentality today. In fact it to my mind also explains the dichotomy of a secular people being hostahe to a theocratic clergy. The clergy offer a vent against the West which feeds on the 20th century suffering at hands of imperial powers.



No. We suffer from post colonial syndrome you suffer from post neo-colonial syndrome. Same thing dressed in differant clothes.



I am big critic of the Pakistani state but please refer to earlier. Pakistan has never sold it's interest. It compromised to get what it wanted. Even Japan does that. Even Germany do that. We all do it.



I will tackle this some other time.



The only, repeat the only resources Pakistan has is (i) the people and (ii) the mighty River Indus. Nothing else. This copper you are on about is poor grade, in the most remote, most volatile region of Pakistan and right next to Afghan border thus making it very unattractive to investors. Even if it came on full steam we would only earn maybe $1 billion dollars max. It is cents, just cents in a country of 195 million people. This is typical bull that lot of ignorent Pakistani's start running around screaming and declaring headlines.

I give you one example. For some time they have been screming about Pak having the largest coal reserves in the world. Well this is rubbish. In my garden the soil is red. It has traces of hematite. Shall I declare I have masive iron resources in my garden? That coal in Pakistan is of such por quality - quality measured by amount of energy per unit that it is almost not even worth taking out of the ground. Which explains why it is still safe under the ground. Maybe as energy price goes up and technology improves some Chinese company might risk trying to invest dollar to make dollar and a two cents profit. This is the realiy.

I will address this later with a comparison of Iranian economy with Pakistan's. I will just posat facts and leave the reader to make conclusions.



May I ask who blamed India or chose USA??? I am somewhat confused about this. Please refer to previous paragraph.



I am. I try. The reality is Iran is Zero. Pakistan is Minus one . Afghanistan is Minus 10. Ditto for rest. Only the West or Far East has done well. The only Muslim country going anywhere is Turkey. The rest are just line of Zeros.

Please do not think the respect I have for Iran which flows from her great past. Cyrus, Darious, the Persian language and it's impact on Pakistan prevents me from seeing the reality as it is. I don't enjoy saying lot of things. Trust me I have been going softy softy because of my respect for Persia.

However I felt I could not allow some of your comments go unchallenged. We all have pride.

Ps. We are not your enemy. You are not our enemy. The sooner our people realize this the better. Outsiders came and did us all in. This is the reality. We need to learn this.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the reply. I don't have time now and will reply later on.

Just a point here that a short occupation is different from colonization. Japan was occupied but was never colonized for instance.

 

[HariPrasad]

My friend no need to be so ascerbic. There are some good Iranian's here so out of respect to them I am going hold fire because rest assured whatever you can throw so can I.

Now every question a person asks is by definition subjective and laced with partiality. In a sense a question carries the prejudices and thought processes of the person who devised that question. So you can bloody excuse me for being Pakistani. What was I going to do, ask you a question like a bloody Isreli? Whatever crap you write here comes out of your head and is warped by your "Iranian" thinking. Most of your countryman talk with some respect. Where did you come from? Were you born the wrong way or something?

The question I asked was serious. If you think Iran will choose the middle road then so be it. Say so. The reason I asked is as the sanction regime is relaxed I expect there will be a rush to the Iranian market. I was wondering which country out of India or China is going to prevail here.

And don't bother replying to this thread. I await for other Iranians to give me a answer.

Ps. If you have such a problem with Pakistani's frankly I don't what your doing here. I am sure there are lots of Indian websites. I am sure we are not going to miss you here.

You are right. You should not stop asking hard questions simply because someone find it difficult to answer. Your question is very thought provoking. We shall have some degree of insight in the thinking of Iranian friends and what they think.

 

[SrNair]

Hello my Iranian friends. I am just curious about how Iranians feel about China and India. China is rising power and no dobut will be knocking at Iran's door soon. I know India is getting closer to US and Isreal.

But I am wondering between China and India whose influence will previail in the long term on Iran? Of course you would want both but but if push came to shove. Take a look at India. When it came to choosing between USA and Iran India chose USA based on it's interests.

Look forward to your views guys.

@Serpentine

I dont think so.
India and Indians cares about their own interest .Only their own interest.If that interest force us to take a decision against that of US interests .We will do it .No matter what.
Our relation with Iran have thousands of years old.A 4 century old superpower cant change that bond.

 

[kurup]

If we shed some light on selection between the two countries,Iran will chose both , because it has centuries old ties with both countries. One linked with Silk road and other is centuries old neighbors. Recently did some research about Tipu Sultan, it was surprise his court advisers were all first generation Iranian immigrants. A huge Persian setup in Indian, Hyderabad.
And little bit more in context of history, about Persia and Indian relations. Brahmin caste came about when Aryan (Persian, etc.) peoples invaded India from the northwest, conquered the region, and imposed themselves as the ruling class. They had their own religion, which they mixed with the native Indian religion, creating Hinduism.

Underlined part .... Are you talking about Tipu Sultan or Nizam of Hyderabad ?

And what is this picture about ?? Source and timeline .

 

[dray]

I know Iranian's are too savvy to bust he Indian ego so I am not least surprised by the answers I have recieved.

Desperate much?

 

[rmi5]

I skimmed through your post and read some parts like this one:

I guess I had been fooled by the daily tripe the Indian's give about Iran/India. When I checked the trade flows India is just a tiny footnote on the Iranian economic profile. I seriously was surprised. I thought the Indian's have a huge involvement in Iran. The figures say otherwise. China is far ahead of India so I already know where this is going.

I don't know about South Asian media, but the trade between Iran and India is very small, while the trade with China is huge. The reason is not about choosing China over India, Iran simply does not need/care to choose between them, rather the reason is that China has a bigger economy which produces what Iran needs. There are no hidden anti-Chinese nor anti-Indian policy involved.

In fact why not you remind yourself of the Anglo-Russian invasion in 1943 of Iran. Please do tell me how long it took for Iran to be subdued. Also please do tell me which Battle of Stalingrad the Iranians fought against Russian/British invaders. Don't forget both those countries had most their forces fighting Nazi Germany. In fact the so called British force was mostly Indian yet they drove through Iran like a stroll in the park.

Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Allies then stayed in Iran for next 3 years. I might add here even after the British left Iran in 1947 in effect Iran was de facto British colony and only independent de jure. The way the Anglo-Saxon powers ( USA/UK ) treated Iran was nothing more than a fiefdom where they got to extract the oil under preferantial conditions and changed Iranian government with the ease I change my underpants. I am sure your aware of Dr Mossadegh.

Mohammad Mosaddegh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The treatment by British of so called independent Iran revealed the truth that Iran in fact was a vassel state. European empoyees were beyond Iran law and could do anything. Furthermore Iranians living in their own country were being treated as second class citizens. On top of this more of the oil profit was going to Britan then Iran.

"Britain was receiving more from AIOC than Iran.[16] In addition, conditions for Iranian oil workers and their families were very bad. The director of Iran's Petroleum Institute wrote that
Wages were 50 cents a day. There was no vacation pay, no sick leave, no disability compensation. The workers lived in a shanty town called Kaghazabad, or Paper City, without running water or electricity, ... In winter the earth flooded and became a flat, perspiring lake. The mud in town was knee-deep, and ... when the rains subsided, clouds of nipping, small-winged flies rose from the stagnant water to fill the nostrils ....


Summer was worse. ... The heat was torrid ... sticky and unrelenting—while the wind and sandstorms shipped off the desert hot as a blower. The dwellings of Kaghazabad, cobbled from rusted oil drums hammered flat, turned into sweltering ovens. ... In every crevice hung the foul, sulfurous stench of burning oil .... in Kaghazad there was nothing—not a tea shop, not a bath, not a single tree. The tiled reflecting pool and shaded central square that were part of every Iranian town, ... were missing here. The unpaved alleyways were emporiums for rats.[17]

Anglo-Persian Oil Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Reza on his visit to the oil fields was struck by large numbers of British and Indian employees amounting to half the workforce of 29,000 and their ( Indian ) preferantial treatment and accomodation. He saw no signs of prosperity outside the company towns. The journalist Ali Dashti later claimed that Anglo Persian Oil Company treated Iranians as badly as East India company had treated Indians 200 years before"

Days of God; The Revolution in Iran and it's consequences by James Buchan.

Days of God: The Revolution in Iran and Its Consequences - James Buchan - Google Books

I need not go any father. If you doubt my contention that Iran was pseudo-sovereign state from early 20th century all the way to the Iranian Revolution in 1979. In fact the Iranian character of beong strongly resistant and suspicious of external countries is product of humliating of great people in pre 1979 Iran. This experiance still rimgs in the Iranian mentality today. In fact it to my mind also explains the dichotomy of a secular people being hostahe to a theocratic clergy. The clergy offer a vent against the West which feeds on the 20th century suffering at hands of imperial powers.

Dear, your perception is wrong. The problem is that you don't have access to Iranian resources; Hence, what you read are mostly one-sided in many cases. Some times one sided against Iran and sometimes one sided in favor of Iran. Iran suffered a lot during WWI and millions of people died in 1917-1919, and basically after constitutional revolution(1907-1911) and before establishment of Pahlavi ruling dynasty(1925) Iran suffered a huge civil disobedience, and the country was basically disintegrated to numerous parts(Khaz'al in Khouzstan, Pesyan in Khorasan, Bakhtiari tribes, Qashqayi tribes, ...). Reza Shah started to rebuild army, but his army did not exceed 160,000 personal. Just in al alamein war, 1-1.5 million Germans fought against overall the same number of British soldiers. Iran simply did not fought against soviet and brits, because it could bring nothing but destruction. Except for a few soldiers who did not receive the order from tehran at the right time, no fights were reported. It is fully opposite to what you said. No one drove through Iran, rather a deal(initiated by Foroughi) was made with Reza Shah. Instead, Throne was securely transfered to Mohammad Reza shah. It was something that Brits strongly did not want(they wanted the throne to be transferred to Qajars), but each side needed to accept some compromises. BTW, People were not supporting Reza Shah, even if he wanted to fight against USSR, USA, and UK. Also, country would have easily entered into another decades of civil wars, and consequently huge destructions for Iran.
BTW, Many of what is said about treatments issues are also non-sense by the standards of that time. Of course Iran wanted to use these arguments to win the case in international courts which indeed it helped Iran. If you want to see the real treatment with workers at almost the same era, you need to look at under age british children who were daily dying in coal mines, in the heartland of Great Britain empire! Compared to them, workers in Iran were always treated order os magnitude better. Also, Brits needed to pay huge hidden loads of money to Bakhtiyari tribes to secure their pipelines in SouthWest, yet Brits were looted from time to time to increase what tribal leader were receiving. This issue was one of the main reasons that Brits were supporting a strong central government in Iran during that time. About 1953 coup, the role of foreigners is over exaggerated. Brits basically had almost no influence in Iran after WWII. The coup itself was mostly done by royalists and religious leaders, and coordination/money of coup was provided by less than 5-10 Americans. Of course, Iranians prefer to blame it on foreigners for political reasons. In reality, even using the word "Coup" is not even accepted by all scholars, since according to the constitution, Shah could legally change his prime minister by law, considering prime minister closing the National parliament.
Iran is a complicated country which not many information are necessarily available for foreign enthusiasts. If you want to really learn about modern history of Iran, there are a couple of books that I can suggest you to read them, or you may want to find their translations to English language(if they exist). Dear, just remember something, you'll always need to read different books and compare them to find the truth, other wise you will get one sided information. BTW, I also saw that you shared wikipedia links. FYI, wikipedia is the worst source for modern Iranian history.

 

[ganesh623]

Why are you thinking Iran will choose between India and China? What makes you think Iran cannot have great relations (economical, military etc) with both of them?

There is not just right and wrong answers. There are also right and wrong questions. Your question is not a right question to ask, especially because the choices of answers you offer are not realistic, certainly not in real life as far as Iran is concerned. There is no push comes to shove which means Iran has to chose between the two. Sanctions made it difficult to deal with both China and India. I don't see a situation where Iran has to choose between them.

The Indians can have relations with US and Israel. This does not concern Iran. India did not choose the US over Iran but they had to go along with the sanction because they had little other choice otherwise they would have been sanctioned. However despite the sanctions, the Indians still did not completely comply with the US in the sanctions. Same goes for China.

I know Pakistanis would love to see Iran cut its relations with India. But this is like child fantasy. It will not happen. From now on, Iran's relations with India will only increase, same with our relation with China. If Pakistan does not want to be left behind, then you guys need to develop your country and have things to offer. Forget these fantasies about Iran choosing x country over India.

Sir, you said it all, you sad it all.

 

[ganesh623]

India and iran have had relations that trace back thousands of years.

As for current situation India does not care if iran has relations with pakistan or china, also we dont care if iran supports kashmir issue. Likewise iran does not care is we have good relations with israel or saudia. We both are mature and robust economy will develop the relation on equal terms without getting under the influence of any trivial things around.

 

[Aramagedon]

Hello my Iranian friends. I am just curious about how Iranians feel about China and India. China is rising power and no dobut will be knocking at Iran's door soon. I know India is getting closer to US and Isreal.

But I am wondering between China and India whose influence will previail in the long term on Iran? Of course you would want both but but if push came to shove. Take a look at India. When it came to choosing between USA and Iran India chose USA based on it's interests.

Look forward to your views guys.

@Serpentine

Both. But I think India will be closer friend for Iran.

 

[Styx]

no need for an "or" here when the whole world is all set to invest in Iran, well deserved and about time.

 

[nForce]

India will nuke Iran if a need arise but China will never do it. Moreover it will be good for Iran to have friendly relation with Pakistan as first of all both these countries are muslim and China will support them in case of need.

What did I just read ?

 

[Mr.Nair]

This pdf is majority immature comments by chinese kids, even many pakistani's are much better than them

 

[Horatio]

India will nuke Iran if a need arise but China will never do it. Moreover it will be good for Iran to have friendly relation with Pakistan as first of all both these countries are muslim and China will support them in case of need.

I don't know how you managed to bring in religion and nukes together into the equation but carry on my Chinese friend, your thoughts and your time are your own.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

India will nuke Iran if a need arise but China will never do it. Moreover it will be good for Iran to have friendly relation with Pakistan as first of all both these countries are muslim and China will support them in case of need.

LOLLLLL; Nukes are like Chinese Fireworks burnt on Chinese New Year ?
Another "nut-job" arrives.......

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

What did I just read ?

A post that will receive a positive rating by the OP