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China or India?

Yes, Pakistan will work hard to have "things" to offer to Iran or some countries, they will catch up soon.

Now please get out of this thread, you are no longer welcome here to negative about Pakistan everything along with some Iranian morons. :coffee:

This isn't your uncle's forum. I can go in whichever thread I want. Unlike some other Iranian members, I do not try and appease Pakistanis just because this is a Pakistani forum. I speak the truth, a truth which is obviously something that has made a few Pakistanis very emotional. I am only speaking reality.
 
This isn't your uncle's forum. I can go in whichever thread I want. Unlike some other Iranian members, I do not try and appease Pakistanis just because this is a Pakistani forum. I speak the truth, a truth which is obviously something that has made a few Pakistanis very emotional. I am only speaking reality.

Yes you are right I agree. Just keep in mind, don't bragging about it. Just think about how Iran should get benefits relationship with Pakistan in new chapter. Pakistan does favor to Iran for not allowing in Yemen crisis.
 
They will have good relations with both countries, like Brazil, like Malaysia, like the UK, like Sweden, like South Africa and etc, you get the picture.
Nations look out for their interests, few countries will get involved in the disputes of others.
 
Hello my Iranian friends. I am just curious about how Iranians feel about China and India. China is rising power and no dobut will be knocking at Iran's door soon. I know India is getting closer to US and Isreal.

But I am wondering between China and India whose influence will previail in the long term on Iran? Of course you would want both but but if push came to shove. Take a look at India. When it came to choosing between USA and Iran India chose USA based on it's interests.

Look forward to your views guys.

@Serpentine

It is difficult to answer the question in the context you are asking. For this you have to be able to understand the Iranian mindset. Without knowing the Iranian mindset, you will not be able to understand the question you have asked much less the actions of Iran and its policies.

Iranians see themselves as a "independent (and even the only) civilization force". Based on this, Iranians go on and interpret themselves as an ever enduring "reality" of the world. Part of this mindset comes from the long history and culture of Iran and a kind of oral history ingrained in every Iranian as well as a strong presence of mythologies which create a supernatural narrative of Iranian-ness (for example the myths of Arash, Kaveh and Rostam which for most Iranians are actually real legends and not myths).

In this context, Iran does not, can not and will not choose its relations based on the need for a "protector" foreign nation, benefiting Iran and Iranians. Rather Iranians see themselves as benefiting the world by merely gracing the world with their eminent presence through the reality of their civilization force. It might look a bit arrogant, but Iranians are actually quite humble and hospitable people.

So when Iranians hear such kind of a question even when it is innocently asked since this is how the world actually works, they get offended. Since such a question cuts deep into what Iran actually means to Iranians. It cuts into the roots of Iranian beliefs about themselves and their country and their idea of nationhood. Iranians see themselves as an independent historical player on world stage and an indispensable determinant of world history whether in past, present or in future. Even indirectly doubting these ideas (even in a good sense), makes Iranians fume with anger.

In this context, Iranians see other nations, states, people and countries as outsiders who are transient in nature. The only two fundemental realities Iranians know of in the world are Iran and Turan. Iran is the country of Iranians and the Turan are all those who are outside it whether when they are competing with Iran or living in peace with Iran. And Iranians even do not consider the Turanians as completely independent from Iran. They believe the Turanians are actually "traitor Iranians", having originated from Iran and later on leaving Iran. In this mindset, the world is fundamentally an Iranian entity, that is the world was made by Iran itself. And this brings an inevitable implication from the point of view of an Iranian. The implication that the world owes Iran and not other way around. I guess this mindset also comes from the historical fact that Iran was an empire that was managing a good chunk of the world.

Also please note that Iranians subconsciously differentiate between concepts of people, state, nation, culture, country and religion. People being the collection of individuals categorized in different ways, state being a historically transient administrative organization, nation being an enduring reality on its own having roots in Iranian mythology (not through an independence date from a colonial power or a United Nation membership or civil war outcome etc etc), culture having been invented by Iranians and country having been fought for and created in Iranian mythology by Iranians heroes who refused to bow down to world's injustices, and religion being a vehicle of deliverance in supernatural terms but of limited value in the world.

So asking whether Iran will choose, India or China or Russia or Europe or America becomes basically an act of "reducing" Iran to "yet another state" which is "just like any other". It might seem a bit arrogant, but in Iranian culture, this is highly offensive.

PS. I hope this explains it for you. Because the question you asked actually means something else to an Iranian than what it means to you. And this why you might see some Iranian eyes rolling when you ask such kind of questions. Since it does not make sense from an Iranian perspective.
 
Yes you are right I agree. Just keep in mind, don't bragging about it. Just think about how Iran should get benefits relationship with Pakistan in new chapter. Pakistan does favor to Iran for not allowing in Yemen crisis.

There is no evidence Pakistan did not go into Yemen because you were "doing a favour" for Iran. Sorry but I don't buy that. Pakistan has its own strategic calculations and would not just consider the Iran factor in its calculation. I cannot comment how strong the Iran factor was, but to think it was the sole factor, it would be naive and foolish.

I have never stated Iran should not have relations with Pakistan. I have said some Pakistanis need to let go of this fantasy that Iran will isolate Indian because of the desire of some Pakistanis. India is a rising power and Iran needs to have as perfect as possible relations with them.
 
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I think neither of them. Because Iran has good relations with both and none of them seem to be bothered with that (and they don't have a right to be bothered either because you can't force others to choose their friends).

My take is, Iran will improve relations with all Asian countries, including India, China, Pakistan, Russia, Japan and others, but none of them will become 'allies', not that we don't want it, but it's not quite possible given the complex regional and Intl issues between Iran and some other countries.

Also, please excuse that other member's language. I hope you don't mind it. :)
Well, that's also correct, looking at it the other way.

No problem and thank you. What prompted this thread was I read a discussion on potential fighter purchases by Iran. So I was wondering a Iran comes out of sanctions regime how much of defence purchases will come from China given:-

1. China being more robust against Western influence.
2. Chinese rapidly improving technology which could begin to match the best that Russia or West can offer.
3. Chinese massive increase in need for oil.
4. I think and I might be wrong the Iran/India entente is a product of the sanctions regime. Being second largest country in bodycount it certainly could resist Western sanctions. Thus in a world where Iran had become isolated the little gesture by India was amplified.

I am certain that once the sanctions regime goes Tehran is going to have French, Germans, Italians, Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, British running to strike deals. In this environment Indian is going to get left far behind. Macchivlian geopolitics will see to that.

One thing is for sure. Removal of sanctions and Iran doing well will be great news for Pakistan.

@haman10 You get ancients words out of ancient people .....


I leave this thread to the Indian's in their ecstasy to have their "Kumbh Mela". Regards.

kumbh mela - Google Search

@Daneshmand I just read you post now. It is so well put togather that it deserves a considered reply later. Thanks.
 
Any bilateral relationship India has shouldn't be of any concern to Pakistan as long as it is not against the security interests of Pakistan.
Stronger economic relations between India and Iran are of no concern to Pakistan.....as long as the Indian consulate in in Zahidan is not used to destabilize Balochistan.
Pakistan is very particular about protecting its western flank....part of our reason to not get involved in Yemen.
Karzai in Afghanistan allowed the Indians to carry out hostile actions from Afghanistan which in the end achieved nothing apart from the conflict intensifying in Afghanistan but thankfully sense has prevailed in the current Afghan regime.
 
This isn't your uncle's forum. I can go in whichever thread I want. Unlike some other Iranian members, I do not try and appease Pakistanis just because this is a Pakistani forum. I speak the truth, a truth which is obviously something that has made a few Pakistanis very emotional. I am only speaking reality.
:D
 
Why are you thinking Iran will choose between India and China? What makes you think Iran cannot have great relations (economical, military etc) with both of them?

There is not just right and wrong answers. There are also right and wrong questions. Your question is not a right question to ask, especially because the choices of answers you offer are not realistic, certainly not in real life as far as Iran is concerned. There is no push comes to shove which means Iran has to chose between the two. Sanctions made it difficult to deal with both China and India. I don't see a situation where Iran has to choose between them.

The Indians can have relations with US and Israel. This does not concern Iran. India did not choose the US over Iran but they had to go along with the sanction because they had little other choice otherwise they would have been sanctioned. However despite the sanctions, the Indians still did not completely comply with the US in the sanctions. Same goes for China.

I know Pakistanis would love to see Iran cut its relations with India. But this is like child fantasy. It will not happen. From now on, Iran's relations with India will only increase, same with our relation with China. If Pakistan does not want to be left behind, then you guys need to develop your country and have things to offer. Forget these fantasies about Iran choosing x country over India.
I agree and second everything you said. Iran will not favour either country but do what is best for Iran when dealing with Asian countries. Although i think that Japan is a country that Iran should pursue business with ahead of China or India in certain development areas since Japanese are much smarter and more technologically advanced than Indians and Chinese. Japan is also a much cleaner country and more sophisticated than them. Plus, Japan and Iran are two countries that have the right perspective on total Global nuclear disarmament. The Japanese president made the call again today for the World's nuclear weapons states to start eliminating all nuclear weapons and Zarif did the same thing just a couple of weeks ago. I think this political alignment alone puts Japan and Iran on a good standing to explore expanding their relations in business and foreign affairs.
 
But anyway, Pakistan with the help of China made Iran nuclear power. After that Pakistan face biggest all time arm embargo.
 
It is difficult to answer the question in the context you are asking. For this you have to be able to understand the Iranian mindset. Without knowing the Iranian mindset, you will not be able to understand the question you have asked much less the actions of Iran and its policies.

Iranians see themselves as a "independent (and even the only) civilization force". Based on this, Iranians go on and interpret themselves as an ever enduring "reality" of the world. Part of this mindset comes from the long history and culture of Iran and a kind of oral history ingrained in every Iranian as well as a strong presence of mythologies which create a supernatural narrative of Iranian-ness (for example the myths of Arash, Kaveh and Rostam which for most Iranians are actually real legends and not myths).

In this context, Iran does not, can not and will not choose its relations based on the need for a "protector" foreign nation, benefiting Iran and Iranians. Rather Iranians see themselves as benefiting the world by merely gracing the world with their eminent presence through the reality of their civilization force. It might look a bit arrogant, but Iranians are actually quite humble and hospitable people.

So when Iranians hear such kind of a question even when it is innocently asked since this is how the world actually works, they get offended. Since such a question cuts deep into what Iran actually means to Iranians. It cuts into the roots of Iranian beliefs about themselves and their country and their idea of nationhood. Iranians see themselves as an independent historical player on world stage and an indispensable determinant of world history whether in past, present or in future. Even indirectly doubting these ideas (even in a good sense), makes Iranians fume with anger.

In this context, Iranians see other nations, states, people and countries as outsiders who are transient in nature. The only two fundemental realities Iranians know of in the world are Iran and Turan. Iran is the country of Iranians and the Turan are all those who are outside it whether when they are competing with Iran or living in peace with Iran. And Iranians even do not consider the Turanians as completely independent from Iran. They believe the Turanians are actually "traitor Iranians", having originated from Iran and later on leaving Iran. In this mindset, the world is fundamentally an Iranian entity, that is the world was made by Iran itself. And this brings an inevitable implication from the point of view of an Iranian. The implication that the world owes Iran and not other way around. I guess this mindset also comes from the historical fact that Iran was an empire that was managing a good chunk of the world.

Also please note that Iranians subconsciously differentiate between concepts of people, state, nation, culture, country and religion. People being the collection of individuals categorized in different ways, state being a historically transient administrative organization, nation being an enduring reality on its own having roots in Iranian mythology (not through an independence date from a colonial power or a United Nation membership or civil war outcome etc etc), culture having been invented by Iranians and country having been fought for and created in Iranian mythology by Iranians heroes who refused to bow down to world's injustices, and religion being a vehicle of deliverance in supernatural terms but of limited value in the world.

So asking whether Iran will choose, India or China or Russia or Europe or America becomes basically an act of "reducing" Iran to "yet another state" which is "just like any other". It might seem a bit arrogant, but in Iranian culture, this is highly offensive.

PS. I hope this explains it for you. Because the question you asked actually means something else to an Iranian than what it means to you. And this why you might see some Iranian eyes rolling when you ask such kind of questions. Since it does not make sense from an Iranian perspective.

I appreciate your post however you have gone into another sphere from what I was asking. Your talking about what it means to be Iranian. Trust me all nations indulge themselves in mixture of history and fact. All nations talk of their greatness. All nations talk of having history going back thousand of years. We all should have pride.

There is nothing wrong with this. From where I come in Pakistan just 20 miles away is site that had great civilization 2,000 years ago. Just 200 miles away in Harappa we have a site with civilization 5,000 years old. About 400 miles south west of me is Mehr Garh which goes back 7,000 years ago and just 30 miles away is site that boasts human culture from 500,000 yes half a million years ago. I would not be lying if I said Pakistan is land which was cradle of civilization. Along with Mesoptamia, China, Indus Valley ( yes that is in Pakistan ) are the birthplace of "civilization" itself.

As I say to many European's when you guy's were trying to figure out how to cover your posterior we were laying the foundation of civilization itself. So, yes we can all spin fabric to wrap ourselves in to feel the glow of greatness.

Mehrgarh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Harappa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sirkap - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Soanian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I also want to clarify this myth peddled by our huge neighbour on the east, India. A country that has more starving people than any othe place on earth, a country with the largest filthiest shanty towns in the world, a country that until recently was known as the land where more people slept like dogs on the streets then in houses. In fact it is more starving than even Africa. In fact Hollywood even makes a movies on this subject.

City of Joy (film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Slumdog Millionaire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Indian poverty levels higher than Pakistan's, says UN report - Telegraph
More of world's poor live in India than in all sub-Saharan Africa, says study | World news | The Guardian

* This is riposte to those Indian's who have been posting cheap comments.

There is this myth spread by our neighboir that Pakistan sells itself out. Never. Pakistan has never sold itself out. Pakistan like any other country ( @The Last of us repeats this all the time ) actively pursues it's self interest. Every country is prisoner of it's own unique circumstances. It is like a ledger account. You have your pros and cons.

We don't have oil like Iran or Saudia has. How potent is oil? Well those camel drivers across the Persian Gulf have most of the world dancing at their finger tips. You saw the long ques of Western leaders tripping over each other to pay condolances after the death of the Saudi royal. That shows what oil can do. Iran has plenty of oil and gas that you can float on.

India has so many people that if all Indian's pissed into the ocean at the same time the level of the worlds oceans would rise. That body count on that mass scale gives certain gravitas. Huge numbers can have aggregate punch.

Pakistan has neither India's huge numbers nor oil or for that matter any naturel resource. I was looking at Pak electricty production. Beside hydropower we have to rely on imported gas or oil to power the generators. You know how expensive that is? India has plenty of coal to power it's generators. We don't. That is why we are desperate for the gas pipeline.

Anyway Pakistan has charted a very difficult journey in balancing itself in a world dominated by USA. Although nature did not bestow us any favours but we played our hand and managed to get aid from USA and at the same time built nuclear weapons. That was not easy. Go ask Saddam. Go ask yourself. We pulled it off though. Now American's can go to hell.

Think about this. We are a a country with no resources but right under the noses of the American's milked the bastards and at the same time made the bomb. Not a easy task. Of course did we have to compromise? Yes, we did but all the while we secretly kept working on our goal. So please nobody tell us what self interest is or that we sell ourselves. We do what we have to do with the cards that were dealt to us.

Now we are focussing on China because we know our days of milching America are over. Even now though while we tilt over to China we are squeezing them for everything. You already know they complain about us. NATO was in Afghanistan. We supported Taliban for our own reasons whilst milching Americans at the same time. In my eyes even Machavelli would have had a smile on his face.


As regards China/India after my last post I did some reading on the subject. I am actually shocked at what I read in particular the facts. These Indian's have habit have bragging from the rooftops. I have been reading so much bragging about Iran/India by the Indians I actually thought it was a phenomnen. After I looked at thew facts I was bent over laughing. The sober truth is Iran/India relationship is the steam of the piss on cold day.

Here are the facts. Iran imported 5% from India, from China 21%, Turkey 21%. India at 5% is not even worth squat. As regards exports China was 35% and India 19% and even this is oil. So guy's notwithstanding the Ganga dwellers jumping up and down China is by far the largest trading partner already. So what was all this drama the Indian's make? Nothing. China is already ahead big talk asides.

Of course trade is not the only aspect. Sometimes strategic relations can be more important. However I am 100% sure Iran would never allow the use of its land by India against Pakistan. So no worries there. I am seriously, surprised about the minor Indian profile on the Iranian trading flows. Here is the diagrams. I strongly suggest the Pakistani members to look at the much vaunted Indian hand in Iran. Even Turkey is far ahead of India and you know how Turks/Iranian get on.

OEC: Iran (IRN) Profile of Exports, Imports and Trade Partners

Have a look at the bar graph for imports. China, Turkey, South Korea and Germany have it carved. End of sanctions is bad, bad, bad news for India, If under sanction regime this is how the bar looks after the sanctions end those countries like Germany, France, Japan, South Koree are going to be winners because US restraint has held them back.

And whilse some talk the Chinese do the walk.

China And Iran Weigh $1 Billion Deal To Swap Chengdu J-10 Fighter Jets For Major Oil Field
 
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Your pragmatism is inspiring :D
Don't underestimate Chinese , they literally have bought Pakistan :D
And runing North Korea from their pocket money :D

you dreaming . look the ink on Iran nuclear deal is not yet dried and you can see the Iranian establishment is already started cracking down on Chinese company and their investment . you see action speak louder words .
Chinese auto makers leaving Iran


with regard to Pakistan again you dreaming . there will be NO none what so ever big ZERO . of-course the Iranian establishment will say alot nice words and but in reality Iran trade and cooperation and as low as it can be and you can not see any effet by Iran to upgrade little bit . so please stop dreaming


but when it comes to India look at evidence
Iran and India relation Banking oil gas culture economy

as much as India offers Iran Iran will take it with open arms
 

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