China economy boost the Navy, 6th 052C DDG finished next 055

[William Hung]

Are we discussing about an attack from Vietnam to Type 055 ?

Well, you said VN can use airborne radar from 400km away to guide sub launched Club S.

 

[hans]

You are right. It will be a test for defensive capacity.
fast speed reduce the time to react.
Yet it also create huge heat that are nice target for defense missile.
Also another advantage of 052 class is the AESE radar.
Compare with PESE radar used in Burke Class, it can handle more threaten.

It is also important to note that the Brahmos is a supersonic cruise missile that will be traveling to its intended target at mach 3 speed. Now, imagine 8 of these traveling at the same time towards one target. It will test any DDG's defensive capability, honestly, be it the Atago Class, Kongo Clas, Sejong the Great Class or the Arleigh Burke Class.

But I am sure , considering the Chinese Navy have progressed rapidly these past 10 years, their DDGs are capable of handling such threats.

Best of Luck!

 

[Aepsilons]

You are right. It will be a test for defensive capacity.
fast speed reduce the time to react.
Yet it also create huge heat that are nice target for defense missile.
Also another advantage of 052 class is the AESE radar.
Compare with PESE radar used in Burke Class, it can handle more threaten.

This is a reason why DDGs never operate by themselves if deployed towards a war zone. If one sole Type 052 of the PLAN is sent and is attacked by 4-8 Brahmos, most likely it will be capable of taking down 3-4 of the missiles, but the remaining will hit its target. This is the reason why DDGs travel in squadrons and are placed in screening formation, this way they can all effectively take down any incoming threats with minimal losses. This is the very reason why Carrier battle groups surround the carrier on all flanks. Its a defensive tactic that reduces the probability of a strike on key targets.

 

[hans]

How could it be only 30KM for 14KM big size Brahmos??
Also how can your submarine detect the ship and launch the missile?
HHQ 10 is not used to catch up with these missiles, just to hit the incoming missile.
Don`t need to be very fast. Actually it can response very fast.
CIWS of course you cannot rely them to shoot down the missile...

1. HHQ 9 has range in paper 200km for 27,000m aircraft.
at 14,000m cruise missile like Brahmos, the range would be less than 30 km, but at that phase Brahmos went down to 15m low altitude. Same to Club-S, the submarine could launch Club-S at 60 km -100 km distance at low altitude.
2. HHQ-10 or similar only has Mach 2 speed, while Brahmos missiles have Mach 3 or more speed.
CIWS is untrustworthy and can shoot at not more than 1 target 1 time.
I reminded him that all defending missiles of US destroyers have Mach 3.5 speed as minimum.
See my post #106

 

[BoQ77]

You are right. It will be a test for defensive capacity.
fast speed reduce the time to react.
Yet it also create huge heat that are nice target for defense missile.
Also another advantage of 052 class is the AESE radar.
Compare with PESE radar used in Burke Class, it can handle more threaten.

I think it's better to have more capable missiles for defending within the range of 5-15 km

 

[Aepsilons]

I think it's better to have more capable missiles for defending within the range of 5-15 km

I will reiterate, its easier for any DDG to take down any high subsonic SSMs, than super sonic missiles that travel mach 3.

 

[hans]

Other facts is that single ship have limit reaction from single direction.
If all missile coming missile from one direction, the system will be overwhelmed.
fleets with more ships can reduce this kind of limit.

This is a reason why DDGs never operate by themselves if deployed towards a war zone. If one sole Type 052 of the PLAN is sent and is attacked by 4-8 Brahmos, most likely it will be capable of taking down 3-4 of the missiles, but the remaining will hit its target. This is the reason why DDGs travel in squadrons and are placed in screening formation, this way they can all effectively take down any incoming threats with minimal losses. This is the very reason why Carrier battle groups surround the carrier on all flanks. Its a defensive tactic that reduces the probability of a strike on key targets.

Better with 30km where low height missile can be seen by ship.
If one defense missile missed, there is time for another..

I think it's better to have more capable missiles for defending within the range of 5-15 km

 

[Aepsilons]

Other facts is that single ship have limit reaction from single direction.
If all missile coming missile from one direction, the system will be overwhelmed.
fleets with more ships can reduce this kind of limit.

Precisely, mon ami.

It adds a new definition to the old adage that goes, "don't bring a knife to a gun fight"

 

[BoQ77]

How could it be only 30KM for 14KM big size Brahmos??
Also how can your submarine detect the ship and launch the missile?
HHQ 10 is not used to catch up with these missiles, just to hit the incoming missile.
Don`t need to be very fast. Actually it can response very fast.
CIWS of course you cannot rely them to shoot down the missile...

How a slow missiles could intercept faster, highly maneuverable missiles ? what do you mean with "response very fast"? will it act as a shield ?

For range of S300, the range reduction depends on what type of coming target.
High altitude aircraft, ballistic missiles, air to ground missiles, cruise missiles, surface launched missiles ...
the supersonic cruise missile launched from subs or surface with low altitude is most difficult to detect and destroy, as you know.

125-200km range is for 27,000 meter altitude aircraft.

Well, you said VN can use airborne radar from 400km away to guide sub launched Club S.

Brahmos/Club-S missiles from Vietnam only?

 

[William Hung]

How could it be only 30KM for 14KM big size Brahmos??

HHQ 10 is not used to catch up with these missiles, just to hit the incoming missile.

He copied and pasted those numbers from ausairpower where they give estimation range based on the older land based HQ-9 that have different radars to the updated naval HHQ-9 version with stronger AESA.

He also think that anti-ship missiles and anti-air missiles engage with each other in dog fights.

 

[cnleio]

How a slow missiles could intercept faster, highly maneuverable missiles ? what do you mean with "response very fast"? will it act as a shield ?

Just Wiki, if u don't know.

Wiki: HQ-9 <=== It's not a slow missile, does Brahmos/Club-S missile fly over 4 Mach ?
Operational range: 200 km (slant range)
Speed: Mach 4.2

HQ-16A
Operational range: 42 km
Speed: Mach 3

Wiki:BrahMos
Speed: Mach 2.8–3.0

Wiki: 3M-54 Klub
Speed: 0.8-2.5-2.9 mach

 

[William Hung]

Brahmos/Club-S missiles from Vietnam only?

You said VN can use airborne radar 400km away to with with Club S, so I asked.

 

[BoQ77]

Just Wiki, if u don't know.

Wiki: HQ-9 <=== It's not a slow missile, does Brahmos/Club-S missile fly over 4 Mach ?
Operational range: 200 km (slant range)
Speed: Mach 4.2

Wiki:BrahMos
Speed: Mach 2.8–3.0

Wiki: 3M-54 Klub
Speed: 0.8-2.5-2.9 mach

Vietnam has S300PMU-1, Yakhont similar to Brahmos ( but upgraded Brahmos II is Mach 7 ) and Klub.
I never said that S300 is slow but it's still hard to detect and destroy smart and fast missiles like Brahmos, especially operations in groups and at low altitude.

 

[cnleio]

Vietnam has S300PMU-1, Yakhont similar to Brahmos ( but upgraded Brahmos II is Mach 7 ) and Klub.
I never said that S300 is slow but it's still hard to detect and destroy smart and fast missiles like Brahmos, especially operations in groups and at low altitude.

Nobody told u S300 = HQ9, China had S300 system much earlier than Vietnam.

If im right here, ur Vietnam never test S300 vs Brahmos, coz Indian didn't sell Brahmos to any foreign nation yet. And India also didn't buy S300 from Russia, so u really don't know whether S300 can detect Brahmos missile.

 

[BoQ77]

Nobody told u S300 = HQ9, China had S300 system much earlier than Vietnam.

If im right here, ur Vietnam never test S300 vs Brahmos, coz Indian didn't sell Brahmos to any foreign nation yet. And India also didn't buy S300 from Russia, so u really don't know whether S300 can detect Brahmos missile.

my previous post mean I know HQ9 is clone of S300, Brahmos similar to Yakhont, Yakhont is made in Russia while Brahmos by joint-venture India-Russia