China Deployed J-11B jets in Tibet

[ChineseTiger1986]

And yes, you are true. MKI is more maneuverable than the Raptor. I don't know why people think of Raptor as the 'Super duper' plane. Its got its good points, but its got its bad points as well, and although its the most maneuverable American plane, its no where near the Russian Su27/30 or even Mig-35 in maneuverability.

Underestimating the Yankee air power is absolutely bold and ridiculous.

It is true that Yankee's primary multirole force will be F-15E(inferior to MKI) in the next 20 years at least. However, they have a good number of air-superiority like Raptors to take out your MKI one by one before you can perform any targeting against them.

That's why both China and Russia are willing to burn off so much money to produce a type of aircraft that can match the performance of their Raptors.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

I'm confused

A2G is mostly like a feature for multirole aircraft, not for air superiority aircraft.

 

[rockstarIN]

A2G is mostly like a feature for multirole aircraft, not for air superiority aircraft.

Read your below statement again

J-11Bs will likely carry air-to-ground missiles, but not J-11B which is purely air-superiority.

You are saying J-11B will carry A2G, but the same J-11B is purely air-superiority. You mean to say some another plane?

 

[jagjitnatt]

Underestimating the Yankee air power is absolutely bold and ridiculous.

It is true that Yankee's primary multirole force will be F-15E(inferior to MKI) in the next 20 years at least. However, they have a good number of air-superiority like Raptors to take out your MKI one by one before you can perform any targeting against them.

That's why both China and Russia are willing to burn off so much money to produce a type of aircraft that can match the performance of their Raptors.

Wait a second, don't jump from topic to topic. I never said MKI has a better performance than either F-15 or F-22. You're diverting from the topic.

I said MKI is more MANEUVERABLE. and we all know it is. I hope you understand the difference, and it was only to counter your last argument in which you compared the max take off weight.

We know F-22 can take down an MKI. I never compared their abilities. Just the max take off weight and maneuverability.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Read your below statement again

J-11Bs will likely carry air-to-ground missiles, but not J-11B which is purely air-superiority.

You are saying J-11B will carry A2G, but the same J-11B is purely air-superiority. You mean to say some another plane?

J-11Bs will carry both A2G and A2A missiles, whereas J-11B will only carry A2A missiles.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Wait a second, don't jump from topic to topic. I never said MKI has a better performance than either F-15 or F-22. You're diverting from the topic.

I said MKI is more MANEUVERABLE. and we all know it is. I hope you understand the difference, and it was only to counter your last argument in which you compared the max take off weight.

We know F-22 can take down an MKI. I never compared their abilities. Just the max take off weight and maneuverability.

So i said that J-11B would take down MKI in a dog fight, do you have any problem with that?

 

[jagjitnatt]

So i said that J-11B would take down MKI in a dog fight, do you have any problem with that?

On what basis?
In a dog fight, MKI can even take down an F-22. Nothing matches MKI's maneuverability.

J-11B is an inferior plane. Period. Prove it otherwise, or live with it.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

On what basis?
In a dog fight, MKI can even take down an F-22. Nothing matches MKI's maneuverability.

J-11B is an inferior plane. Period. Prove it otherwise, or live with it.

MKI is a multirole aircraft, i doubt it can take an air-superiority aircraft of its own generation in a dog fight, let alone a next gen air superiority aircraft like Raptor. Gimme a break!!!

 

[jagjitnatt]

MKI is a multirole aircraft, i doubt it can take an air-superiority aircraft of its own generation in a dog fight, let alone a next gen air superiority aircraft like Raptor. Gimme a break!!!

Do you even know what an air-superiority aircraft is? What defines such an aircraft?

Please go have a read, and then talk to me.

In a dogfight, it doesn't matter if its an air superiority fighter, multirole, or even a ground attack aircraft, what matters is how maneuverable the aircraft is, and if it can carry short range missiles or a cannon.

Rest is just crap.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Do you even know what an air-superiority aircraft is? What defines such an aircraft?

Please go have a read, and then talk to me.

In a dogfight, it doesn't matter if its an air superiority fighter, multirole, or even a ground attack aircraft, what matters is how maneuverable the aircraft is, and if it can carry short range missiles or a cannon.

Rest is just crap.

So do you expect a multirole aircraft with less A2A missiles to beat its air-superiority counterpart with more A2A missiles?

And Raptor relies more on long range stealthy attack, yet it is not a pu$$y in a dog fight. Believing that MKI can take it down in a dog fight is just plain silly.

 

[below_freezing]

On what basis?
In a dog fight, MKI can even take down an F-22. Nothing matches MKI's maneuverability.

J-11B is an inferior plane. Period. Prove it otherwise, or live with it.

thrust vectoring = useless for the MKI. a regular Su-30 without thrust vectoring can already maneuver with more acceleration than human bodies can handle. Animals can't handle acceleration > 9g for anything more than a few seconds. The J-11B on the other hand is LIGHTER than the J-11 by 700 kg which allows it to have greater instantateous acceleration; animals can handle much higher instantaneous acceleration.

Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note:

J-11: 16870 kg (J-11B uses composite materials to reduce its weight by 700 kg compared to the J-11; 2400 kg lighter than the Su-30 MKI)

Su-30MKI: 18400 kg

Engine thrust J-11:

Dry thrust: 75.22 kN / 89.17 kN
Thrust with afterburner: 123 kN / 129.4 kN

Su-30 MKI:

Powerplant: 2× Lyulka AL-31FP turbofans with thrust vectoring, 131 kN with afterburner

Comparable engine thrusts, but Su-30 MKI has much higher mass.

The rise rate is a huge indicator of maneuverability of the plane itself:

J-11: Rate of climb: 300 m/s
Su-30 MKI: Rate of climb: >230 m/s

Also note that the J-11 has a 25% higher maximum speed, Mach 2.35, as opposed to the Su-30 MKI which has a maximum speed of Mach 1.9

 

[jagjitnatt]

So do you expect a multirole aircraft with less A2A missiles to beat its air-superiority counterpart with more A2A missiles?

And Raptor relies more on long range stealthy attack, yet it is not a pu$$y in a dog fight. Believing that MKI can take it down in a dog fight is just plain silly.

Ok. Got to give a lot of lessons today. But its fine as long as you learn.

Multirole doesn't mean it can not carry more A2A missiles, it means that the aircraft can be configured with multiple loadouts. It may carry A2G weapons and A2A weapons as well. The loadout will depend on the mission. If the mission requires to take out an aircraft, only A2A missiles will be loaded. If the mission is a bombing mission, it will carry 7-8 bombs, and 2-3 A2A missiles.

So with 11 hardpoints, I expect MKI to carry 11 missiles in a dogfight with the Raptor. And MKI with its superior maneuverability can easily give a hard time to the Raptor.

Raptor's policy in an encounter is to attack from a long range. And keep attacking until its out of missiles. And usually the 6 missiles are enough to take out the adversaries, but in case it can not take down the opponent, it will NOT get into a dog fight, it will retreat.

Raptor was never meant to get into a dogfight. This is why Raptor is superior. It gets its job done from a long distance.

But in a hypothetical scenario of a MKI vs Raptor dogfight, MKI will take down Raptor with much more ease. Raptor has nothing that gives it an upper hand in a dogfight. It is superior to old American planes due to TVC. But almost all new Russian planes have TVC, and superior 3D TVC, and Raptor can't do squat in a dogfight against them.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Ok. Got to give a lot of lessons today. But its fine as long as you learn.

Multirole doesn't mean it can not carry more A2A missiles, it means that the aircraft can be configured with multiple loadouts. It may carry A2G weapons and A2A weapons as well. The loadout will depend on the mission. If the mission requires to take out an aircraft, only A2A missiles will be loaded. If the mission is a bombing mission, it will carry 7-8 bombs, and 2-3 A2A missiles.

So with 11 hardpoints, I expect MKI to carry 11 missiles in a dogfight with the Raptor. And MKI with its superior maneuverability can easily give a hard time to the Raptor.

Raptor's policy in an encounter is to attack from a long range. And keep attacking until its out of missiles. And usually the 6 missiles are enough to take out the adversaries, but in case it can not take down the opponent, it will NOT get into a dog fight, it will retreat.

Raptor was never meant to get into a dogfight. This is why Raptor is superior. It gets its job done from a long distance.

But in a hypothetical scenario of a MKI vs Raptor dogfight, MKI will take down Raptor with much more ease. Raptor has nothing that gives it an upper hand in a dogfight. It is superior to old American planes due to TVC. But almost all new Russian planes have TVC, and superior 3D TVC, and Raptor can't do squat in a dogfight against them.

I would rather be more eggheaded than believing your wild imagination.

 

[jagjitnatt]

thrust vectoring = useless for the MKI. a regular Su-30 without thrust vectoring can already maneuver with more acceleration than human bodies can handle. Animals can't handle acceleration > 9g for anything more than a few seconds. The J-11B on the other hand is LIGHTER than the J-11 by 700 kg which allows it to have greater instantateous acceleration; animals can handle much higher instantaneous acceleration.

Useless?? I don't think so.
TVC doesn't mean that it will allow aircraft to turn at 12g or something. Most aircraft never exceed 6g in a sustained turn. With TVC we can ensure that we get to 7-8g in a turn.
Also TVC kicks in big time when we need to change direction quickly, like in a dog fight. You see the cobra, how it was before TVC, and now with TVC, we can do a lot more than just cobra maneuvers.

TVS allows for quick turns, and change of directions.

Also note that the J-11 has a 25% higher maximum speed, Mach 2.35, as opposed to the Su-30 MKI which has a maximum speed of Mach 1.9

Since when did max speed become a parameter for performance. If max speed is crucial, Mig 25 would trump the J11 any day.

What is more crucial today is how slow can the aircraft fly. What angle of attack can it sustain. And TVS also helps tremendously to increase the angle of attack.

---------- Post added at 11:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 AM ----------

I would rather be more eggheaded than believing your wild imagination.

Rather be? You still think you're not up there?

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Rather be? You still think you're not up there?

lol, Raptor is too expensive for a dog fight, without being necessary, why it has to engage into a dog fight when it has absolutely long range stealthy advantages?

But in a duel to death without choice, i don't think Raptor would lose to MKI in a dog fight.