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China confronts Indian navy vessel

Hahaha Vinod, Indians boast all the time on the internet about what they "would do" to China in response to all the provocations.

Now I love to read about what Indians "would do". But at some point I have to ask, are you actually going to do anything?

First round of stapled visas - Manmohan comes over with some nice business contracts for us, and promises to increase the already skewed China-India trading relationship to the detriment of India's own trade balance

Second round of stapled visas - India shuts down Chushul airfield on the border, in response to Chinese complaints

I can't remember what they did in response to PLA troops in Northern Pakistan. Enlighten me?

I don't think closing an airfield with disclosed location near border was a bad idea as for now. If required it can be made into full operational base.
Presence of chinese troops in pakistan is not a new thing to us. It just give a clear picture.
 
It was a Congress government that was ruling in 1971 and that kept the Chinese in their place while we were liberating Bangladesh from an ongoing genocide.

It is stupid to talk of individual parties in another country and what they would do. It is like I start talking of Chinese leaders from different provinces and what they can or can't do.

When facing the outside world, India is ONE.

yeah and they could not even use the victory right, liberating Bangladesh we had Pakistan on its knees we gave up gains in the western theater we had a chance to put Pakistan in its place instead we invited Ali Bhutto to Simla gave back all our gains released POW's and kept the status quo and what happens? Ali Bhutto paranoid starts a nuclear weapons program and after him the covert dismemberment of Kashmir through proxy means

the CONgress party is useless stupid and a bane to India's existence why the hell have we been ruled by one family for the last 60 years of our independence i mean come on Vajpayee was the best PM India had he expanded economic growth and influence made the military a conventional giant

the 5 years BJP was in power the population living below poverty line decreased went from 45% to 39-38%

i want a prosperous and powerful India where Indians do not starve where Indians do not live in downright repulsing conditions where Indians have a chance to live a good life you won't get that with the CONgress party you will with the BJP
 
Hahaha Vinod, Indians boast all the time on the internet about what they "would do" to China in response to all the provocations.

Now I love to read about what Indians "would do". But at some point I have to ask, are you actually going to do anything?

First round of stapled visas - Manmohan comes over with some nice business contracts for us, and promises to increase the already skewed China-India trading relationship to the detriment of India's own trade balance

Second round of stapled visas - India shuts down Chushul airfield on the border, in response to Chinese complaints

I can't remember what they did in response to PLA troops in Northern Pakistan. Enlighten me?

I know you are having an itch to see some action, because of some "experiences" you have had (remember the old Hindi movies analogy).

It will be a long wait. ;)

Ind0-Sino relations are mostly fine and your eagerness for action (from a safe distance) doesn't change that. The irritants are mostly small in the overall scheme of things and don't warrant a drastic action from us. We are focused on our economy and increasing our preparedness, not to pander to stupid chants of showing "guts".

BTW I hope you can one day understand how foolish this statement sounds:

"Indians boast all the time on the internet about what they "would do" to China in response to all the provocations."

I have seen you and your another red book comrade in arms, that Hung Wu clown boast much more and frankly you guys fail to impress (in a positive way).
 
Ind0-Sino relations are mostly fine and your eagerness for action (from a safe distance) doesn't change that.

Just one final question then, you said before that India would revoke the one-China policy.

One-China policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which of course means breaking off relations with the PRC entirely.

What is the likelyhood of that happening in the next 5 years, as a general estimate?
 
I would respect a BJP government a thousand times more than a Congress government.

But then, Congress are the experts at playing vote-bank politics, they might win again.

@Vinod: I'll close by saying that I really WISH that what you are saying is true, and that the Indian government is "pretending" to back down on every issue, just because they want to surprise us by breaking off diplomatic relations with the PRC completely.

Matey, I have to repeat again that you are too eager for action.

There is no need for India to break relations with PRC. We don't think China is an enemy.

But going by the past behaviour of the Indian government, even in the face of even the most extreme provocations, I just don't believe they have it in them. They are welcome to prove me wrong. :azn:

I gave you some examples of more "extreme provocations" in the Chinese context. You have not come back on that.

I don't think you are in a position to rationally discuss this issue for reasons I already mentioned. ;)
 
Wo the hell does China think they are? conducting such an act in INTERNATIONAL waters- I hope the IN told them where to stick it, but knowing IN I'm sure they acted in a professional and curtains manner as always. Let them try such a stunt in Indian Ocean and see what happens. If PLAN ever trys its luck with IN they will get a bloody nose- IN today is a formidable force in a few years it will be even more deadly, the PLAN knows this and that's why they tried this BS in SCS far away from any other IN vessels.

Give us a bloody nose and we will break your back.

I'd prefer if China and India became good friends. Luckily, radical far right NRIs like you are stuck in England unable to influence India's policies.
 
Just one final question then, you said before that India would revoke the one-China policy.

One-China policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which of course means breaking off relations with the PRC entirely.

What is the likelyhood of that happening in the next 5 years, as a general estimate?

I didn't say that.

I said just a little hint of that was enough for the commies to get back to their senses.
 
I didn't say that.

I said just a little hint of that was enough for the commies to get back to their senses.

LOL, apparently it didn't work though.

Since after India failed to "restate" the one-China policy during the joint-statement, after that we had the issue of PLA in Northern Pakistan, and yet another round of stapled visas, this time to AP.

If you're not willing to carry through a bluff, then it's obviously not going to work is it? The other side has to believe that you will actually do it.

Anyway, I'm off. I might pick this thread up again later if it remains interesting.
 
LOL, apparently it didn't work though.

Since after India failed to "restate" the one-China policy during the joint-statement, after that we had the issue of PLA in Northern Pakistan, and yet another round of stapled visas, this time to AP.

If you're not willing to carry through a bluff, then it's obviously not going to work is it? The other side has to believe that you will actually do it.

Anyway, I'm off. I might pick this thread up again later if it remains interesting.

You really think that stupid stapled visa policy is the greatest thing China has achieved over the last thousand year?

Or the PLA providing cheap unskilled labor in that disputed area?

These little games fail to impress us.
 
This article may put the incident in context and explain Chinese concerns -


Good morning, ’Nam

Bharat Karnad

The Asian Age – July 7, 2011

Nations establish moral ascendancy over other nations only by victory in war. Shrugging off the possibility of American nuclear attack, China crossed the Yalu river in October 1950 and almost brought the United States-led forces in Korea to their knees, rubbed India’s nose in the dust in 1962 and in 1969 militarily stiff-armed the Soviet Union on the Ussuri river.

Elsewhere in Asia there is Vietnam, a much smaller but truly extraordinary military power with an unmatched record of serially beating intruders and interventionists. It bloodied China every time it ventured south in over 2,000 years of its history. In more recent times, Vietnam ended France’s imperial pretensions at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu, kicked the Americans out and in 1979, even as its regular divisions were held in reserve, its militia of hastily armed and trained villagers in the border provinces proved more than adequate to kill 25,000 and injure 75,000 of an invading force of 100,000 People’s Liberation Army troops chairman Deng Xiaoping had ordered into action to teach Vietnam “a lesson”, much as Mao Zedong had launched his “self-defence counter-attack” against India.

Except, it were the Chinese who were taught a brutal lesson in offensive guerrilla resistance and faced humiliation they cannot easily forget. The thrashing China received at the hands of the Vietnamese 32 years ago has resulted in the respect Beijing shows Hanoi that Delhi can only dream of. Thus, in the latest clash last month in the South China Sea over the disputed Spratly Islands chain, after Chinese ships cut the cables of a PetroVietnam oil exploration vessel, Vietnam responded with strong words backed by naval live-fire drills. Fearing the situation was sliding into loss of face, this time on sea, the Chinese quickly asked for talks.

But Vietnam is no brash belligerent ready to take on the next bully on the block. While prepared to fight any comer in defence of its territory and interests, it is mindful of its military weaknesses where China is concerned, one of which is its seaward flank fronting on Hainan Island complete with the Sanya nuclear submarine base, hosting the most versatile of China’s three fleets, the South Sea Fleet. During the 1979 Chinese invasion, Vietnam faced possible Chinese naval attacks which Beijing was deterred from mounting because the Soviet Union, then at loggerheads with China, sent four warships into the South China Sea. Vietnam has ever since viewed a meaty presence of an out-of-area friendly naval power in waters offshore as an insurance to ward off the danger from the Chinese Navy. Russia today, much reduced, cannot perform that role, and the United States is unreliable. Hanoi’s hopes, therefore, rest on the Indian government mustering the strategic will to fill the void. A Vietnamese military delegation headed by its Naval Chief, Vice-Admiral Ngyuyen Van Hien, visiting Delhi a fortnight ago, explored ways of developing mutual confidence and trust. For a start, they sought training for its crews the Russians had previously trained, obviously not to the Vietnam Navy’s satisfaction, for the Kilo-class submarines Vietnam is acquiring from Moscow. Should China act up, a strong Vietnamese submarine arm will be a meaningful counter to Chinese warships mucking about offensively around the Spratly Islands.

The more significant thing was Vice-Adm. Hien’s offer of the port of Nha Trang on the South China Sea for the Indian Navy’s use. Nha Trang shares virtually the same longitude as the Sanya base on Hainan, but, latitude-wise, is located a few degrees south. An Indian naval flotilla voyaging frequently between the Andamans and Nha Trang, and sustained by a basing and provisioning arrangement on the central Vietnamese coast, will amount to a near permanent Indian presence in the South China Sea, signalling Indian intent and forward positioning that can mess up the Chinese naval and strategic calculus and push Beijing planners, for once, onto the back foot. At a minimum, it will be an analogue of the sizeable Chinese paramilitary (People’s Armed Police) presence in the Gilgit and Baltistan regions of ***************** Kashmir. And, it will aggravate China’s offshore situation, already roiled by the US Navy’s continued loitering in this area contested, other than Vietnam and China, by Malaysia and Brunei.

As always, however, there’s a glitch. Even though Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his national security adviser (NSA) Shiv Shankar Menon are reportedly for an Indian naval presence in the Vietnamese seas and want India to be a staunch strategic partner of Vietnam, the until recently defence secretary, Pradeep Kumar, was pressing the brakes. Fuelling the innate over-caution of his minister, A.K. Antony, he argued that such a stance would needlessly “provoke” the Chinese and, therefore, is avoidable. It is a remarkable characteristic of the dysfunctional Indian system that despite the Prime Minister’s and the NSA’s support for this initiative, a defence ministry bureaucrat can so easily gum up the works. Hopefully Mr Kumar will be succeeded by someone a bit more on the ball.

Tit-for-tat is something Beijing appreciates better than the apologetic do-nothing tone of statements on China usually emanating from the ministry of external affairs and the generalist defence ministry civil servants. The Indian government should long ago have responded to the nuclear missile-arming of Pakistan by China by equipping Vietnam with nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles and the Brahmos supersonic cruise missile, as I have been advocating the past 15 years. The fact that the Indian government has not done this and, indeed, not accorded top priority to militarily advantaging Vietnam in every possible way, indicates the essential infirmity in India’s strategic thinking. China has used Pakistan to try and contain India to the subcontinent. It’s time India returned the compliment and cooperated with Vietnam, which does not shrink from a fight, to contain China to its immediate waters. Acting on the basis that Vietnam constitutes India’s first line of defence will ensure that, among other things, the bulked-up Chinese Navy is bottled up well east of the Malacca Strait.
 
Give us a bloody nose and we will break your back.

I'd prefer if China and India became good friends. Luckily, radical far right NRIs like you are stuck in England unable to influence India's policies.

You're calling Abingdonboy a radical NRI? :lol:
 
This article may put the incident in context and explain Chinese concerns -


Good morning, ’Nam

Bharat Karnad

The Asian Age – July 7, 2011

Nations establish moral ascendancy over other nations only by victory in war. Shrugging off the possibility of American nuclear attack, China crossed the Yalu river in October 1950 and almost brought the United States-led forces in Korea to their knees, rubbed India’s nose in the dust in 1962 and in 1969 militarily stiff-armed the Soviet Union on the Ussuri river.

Elsewhere in Asia there is Vietnam, a much smaller but truly extraordinary military power with an unmatched record of serially beating intruders and interventionists. It bloodied China every time it ventured south in over 2,000 years of its history. In more recent times, Vietnam ended France’s imperial pretensions at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu, kicked the Americans out and in 1979, even as its regular divisions were held in reserve, its militia of hastily armed and trained villagers in the border provinces proved more than adequate to kill 25,000 and injure 75,000 of an invading force of 100,000 People’s Liberation Army troops chairman Deng Xiaoping had ordered into action to teach Vietnam “a lesson”, much as Mao Zedong had launched his “self-defence counter-attack” against India.

Except, it were the Chinese who were taught a brutal lesson in offensive guerrilla resistance and faced humiliation they cannot easily forget. The thrashing China received at the hands of the Vietnamese 32 years ago has resulted in the respect Beijing shows Hanoi that Delhi can only dream of. Thus, in the latest clash last month in the South China Sea over the disputed Spratly Islands chain, after Chinese ships cut the cables of a PetroVietnam oil exploration vessel, Vietnam responded with strong words backed by naval live-fire drills. Fearing the situation was sliding into loss of face, this time on sea, the Chinese quickly asked for talks.

But Vietnam is no brash belligerent ready to take on the next bully on the block. While prepared to fight any comer in defence of its territory and interests, it is mindful of its military weaknesses where China is concerned, one of which is its seaward flank fronting on Hainan Island complete with the Sanya nuclear submarine base, hosting the most versatile of China’s three fleets, the South Sea Fleet. During the 1979 Chinese invasion, Vietnam faced possible Chinese naval attacks which Beijing was deterred from mounting because the Soviet Union, then at loggerheads with China, sent four warships into the South China Sea. Vietnam has ever since viewed a meaty presence of an out-of-area friendly naval power in waters offshore as an insurance to ward off the danger from the Chinese Navy. Russia today, much reduced, cannot perform that role, and the United States is unreliable. Hanoi’s hopes, therefore, rest on the Indian government mustering the strategic will to fill the void. A Vietnamese military delegation headed by its Naval Chief, Vice-Admiral Ngyuyen Van Hien, visiting Delhi a fortnight ago, explored ways of developing mutual confidence and trust. For a start, they sought training for its crews the Russians had previously trained, obviously not to the Vietnam Navy’s satisfaction, for the Kilo-class submarines Vietnam is acquiring from Moscow. Should China act up, a strong Vietnamese submarine arm will be a meaningful counter to Chinese warships mucking about offensively around the Spratly Islands.

The more significant thing was Vice-Adm. Hien’s offer of the port of Nha Trang on the South China Sea for the Indian Navy’s use. Nha Trang shares virtually the same longitude as the Sanya base on Hainan, but, latitude-wise, is located a few degrees south. An Indian naval flotilla voyaging frequently between the Andamans and Nha Trang, and sustained by a basing and provisioning arrangement on the central Vietnamese coast, will amount to a near permanent Indian presence in the South China Sea, signalling Indian intent and forward positioning that can mess up the Chinese naval and strategic calculus and push Beijing planners, for once, onto the back foot. At a minimum, it will be an analogue of the sizeable Chinese paramilitary (People’s Armed Police) presence in the Gilgit and Baltistan regions of ***************** Kashmir. And, it will aggravate China’s offshore situation, already roiled by the US Navy’s continued loitering in this area contested, other than Vietnam and China, by Malaysia and Brunei.

As always, however, there’s a glitch. Even though Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his national security adviser (NSA) Shiv Shankar Menon are reportedly for an Indian naval presence in the Vietnamese seas and want India to be a staunch strategic partner of Vietnam, the until recently defence secretary, Pradeep Kumar, was pressing the brakes. Fuelling the innate over-caution of his minister, A.K. Antony, he argued that such a stance would needlessly “provoke” the Chinese and, therefore, is avoidable. It is a remarkable characteristic of the dysfunctional Indian system that despite the Prime Minister’s and the NSA’s support for this initiative, a defence ministry bureaucrat can so easily gum up the works. Hopefully Mr Kumar will be succeeded by someone a bit more on the ball.

Tit-for-tat is something Beijing appreciates better than the apologetic do-nothing tone of statements on China usually emanating from the ministry of external affairs and the generalist defence ministry civil servants. The Indian government should long ago have responded to the nuclear missile-arming of Pakistan by China by equipping Vietnam with nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles and the Brahmos supersonic cruise missile, as I have been advocating the past 15 years. The fact that the Indian government has not done this and, indeed, not accorded top priority to militarily advantaging Vietnam in every possible way, indicates the essential infirmity in India’s strategic thinking. China has used Pakistan to try and contain India to the subcontinent. It’s time India returned the compliment and cooperated with Vietnam, which does not shrink from a fight, to contain China to its immediate waters. Acting on the basis that Vietnam constitutes India’s first line of defence will ensure that, among other things, the bulked-up Chinese Navy is bottled up well east of the Malacca Strait.

Nice article.

It is true that if India gets it's act together, the Chinese "string of pearls" can be quickly torn to shreds.

They have a losing hand. geography has handed it to them.
 
For once i agree with the article posted by Mr. MBI. It is a well known fact that Anthony is a tad bit "over-cautious". This particular trait of his is well known in kerala where he served for a few terms. While restraint and adopting a cautionary approach is considered prudent; i believe Mr. Anthony is over doing it. I do however, appreciate his efforts to ramp up the defence capabilities of the nation and his extremely honest nature.

Jai hind.
 
Another article on Indian arrogant ambitions and twisting of facts -

Dealing with Chinese aggression

G. PARTHASARATHY

Business Line - July 21, 2011

Dr Henry Kissinger makes some interesting revelations about China's invasion of Vietnam in March 1979 in his recent book on China. He explains how Deng Xiao Ping made elaborate preparations to invade Vietnam by embarking on a charm offensive, with visits to Japan, South East Asia and last but not least, to the US.

In Washington, Deng spoke of the “parallel interests” of China and the US and the need for the US and China to “coordinate our activities and adopt necessary measures”, following Vietnam's 1978 Friendship Treaty with the Soviet Union. While President Carter paid lip service to peace, he offered “intelligence briefings” to the Chinese, even as Deng asserted: “China must still teach Vietnam a lesson.”

According to Kissinger, Deng indicated that China's plan was to mount “a limited punitive strike, followed by a retreat” in Vietnam, as it had done in the 1962 conflict with India. He, however, fails to acknowledge that the Vietnamese gave the Chinese a bloody nose during their “punitive strike” on their Southern neighbour.

The wheels of geopolitics have turned a full circle over the past three decades. After “strategic geniuses” like Kissinger and Brzezinski contributed significantly to China's “rise” by advocating liberal transfers of investment and technology, the Americans are now finding China increasingly “assertive,”' with its mercantilist policies designed to corner the world's natural resources and its propensity to use force to enforce maritime boundary claims with virtually all its neighbours.

One sees a similar Chinese ‘assertiveness” in dealing with boundary issues with India. Not only is claim being laid to the entire State of Arunachal Pradesh, but China is now alluding to the length of the Sino-Indian border as 2,000 km instead of the actual length of 3,488 km, thereby excluding its borders in the western sector with Jammu and Kashmir from the ambit of differences over the Sino-Indian border.

INDIA'S TOO MEEK

Forever apologetic and defensive in dealing with an “assertive” China, South Block has yet to acknowledge that this constitutes a significant change in China's approach to the issue of Jammu and Kashmir, and indeed in its approach to the entire border issue.

A similar pusillanimity appears to characterise our response to indications of China developing projects to divert the waters of the Brahmaputra.

Clearly alarmed by China's growing “assertiveness”' on its maritime boundaries, from Japan, South Korea and Vietnam to the Philippines, Malaysia and Brunei, Hillary Clinton joined Asean Foreign Ministers at an Asean Regional Forum meeting in Vietnam in July 2010, expressing concern about growing Chinese disinclination to work constructively with its Asean neighbours.

US, JAPAN ALARMED

The US' concern was again expressed at a meeting of Defence Ministers of Asean and its partners in Hanoi in October 2010. During the past year China has not hesitated to use force along its maritime boundaries with Japan, Vietnam and the Philippines.
Tensions have grown significantly between China and Vietnam in recent months. In May 2011, a Chinese fishing boat escorted by two Chinese naval vessels deliberately rammed a Vietnamese seismic survey ship. Following protests by both sides and demonstrations in Vietnam, Hanoi embarked on naval exercises off its central coast. China responded with a large-scale exercise in the South China Sea, in which fighter aircraft participated.

On June 14 Vietnam's Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung served notice about the possibility of an impending military mobilisation, while the Chinese Communist Party mouthpiece, the Global Times, warned Vietnam that China would answer any “provocation” with “economic or even military counter-strikes”.

If China colluded with the US to attack Vietnam in 1979, the Chinese now warn the Vietnamese against “unrealistic” expectations of US backing! Vietnam was told: “China will take whatever measures are necessary to protect its interests in the South China Sea.”

Vietnam's Naval Chief and Deputy Defence Minister Vice-Admiral Nguyen Van Hein visited New Delhi on June 27. Prior to his visit, Hanoi had permitted Indian naval ships to berth at Nha Trang Port in Southern Vietnam. Vice-Admiral Hein visited Indian naval dockyards in Mumbai and Vishakhapatnam.

Maritime cooperation will be a crucial element in defence co-operation with Vietnam. Both countries extensively use equipment of Russian origin.

INDIA AND VIETNAM

The Finance Minister, Mr Pranab Mukherjee, told Vietnam's Prime Minister, Mr Nguyen Tan Dung, on May 8 that India would continue to assist Vietnam in the modernisation of its armed forces, focusing attention primarily on its Air Force and Navy.
Mr Mukherjee also spoke of enhanced intelligence co-operation with Vietnam. Unfortunately, given ONGC's inability to utilise opportunities for oil and gas exploration that Vietnam provided to it, India cannot be said to enjoy an image of efficiency or competence in Vietnamese eyes.

Moreover, we need to be far less inhibited in dealing with defence co-operation with Vietnam. If we are really serious about developing Vietnam's capabilities to defend its maritime boundaries, we should be prepared to transfer potent weapon systems, such as the Brahmos Cruise Missile, to that country.

China has, after all, shown no inhibitions in transferring a range of missile systems to Pakistan. We should avoid subjecting Vietnam to the inefficiencies of public sector enterprises such as ONGC or NHPC, which have underperformed in our eastern neighbourhood.

India needs to play an active role in building an inclusive architecture for security in the South China Sea and across the Asia-Pacific. We are expanding defence ties with Japan and participating in multilateral naval exercises. Should we not elicit Vietnam's participation in such exercises too?
 
India's landmass with its deccan plateau foraying into the indian ocean is a tremendous advantage which I think Indian strategic planners have conveniently overlooked. Also the strategic position of andaman and Nicobar Islands should be used as an outpost to South East Asia.
 

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