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CATIC bidding L-15B for PAF'S LIFT requirements

L-15 is a proper platform for Junior Pilot Training and Duel purpose Ground ops

A 25-50 Plane Acquisition would ensure great fit for Pakistan's Young Falcon Training school
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If someone tries to actively misunderstand, then its not my fault. The logical sequence of deductions is pretty obvious:

1. As explained on Wikipedia, JL-9 is 'basically an FT-7', even though the entire frontal fuselage has been completely changed.
2. If, after such drastic changes, two aircrafts can still be called related, then I see definite links between JL-8 and JL-10 which I have explained above.

Now, if you want to be taken seriously yourself, I advise you smarten up and pick up things without needing to be spoon fed.


Pardon ... now it becomes even more funny since You really don't get the most simple facts straight: :rofl:


Yes, the JL-9 is more or less a modified FT-7 and as such the TFC-2000 is directly related - esp. structurally - to the original JJ-7 and even MiG-21F-13.

The L-15 however is a development of the Yak-130 and ahs no, not the slightest, nada - structural, conceptual, aerodynamic relationship to the old K-8/JL-8.

To insist, the L-15 is a next generation trainer by Hongdu similar as the JL-9 is a next generation trainer by Guizhou is irrelevant at least in the strict meaning of "the next iteration of K-8". Stop making a fool out of yourself even more. It is already worst.
 
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First of all, provide a reference for this claim. From where do you understand that L-15 is a development of Yak-130?

It is well known that Hongdu contacted Yakowlew, which even made the preliminary design:

One of the first batch JL-10 advanced jet trainers in service with PLAAF Flight Test & Training Base is shown here. Developed by Hongdu and with the technical assistance from Yakovlev OKB, JL-10 (JJ-10/export name L-15) is expected to support the new generation of Chinese fighters such as J-10 and J-11. Two variants are being developed initially. One is advanced jet trainer (AJT), powered by two Ukraine AI-222-25 turbofan engines. ...
via: http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/trainers.html

Attached are original Russian proposals:

L-15 - proposal from Yak 2004 - 1.jpg
L-15 - proposal from Yak 2004 - 2.jpg




And now it's your turn ... besides your other claims in development line, where is a TVC development of the AI-222-25F available?
 
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First of all, provide a reference for this claim. From where do you understand that L-15 is a development of Yak-130?

Dude there are tons of sources on this. I think its better to admit ones mistake or misunderstanding and move on rather to try to dig in and defend a misconceived idea.

China actually has two variants of the L-15 in service. The one with their Navy does not have an afterburning engine and the dimensions are slightly different (no radar in that one either I believe). For reference, look at the pictures posted by AzadPakistan and compare the lack of engine nozzles on the last one with the ones above.

Anyways, I will try to post a recent article on this trainer for you guys

From Combat Aircraft Dec 2018 issue...

A new generation

Perhaps the most eagerly awaited trainer to enter PLAAF and PLA Naval Aviation service is the Hongdu JL-10 Falcon. This type — which began life with the export designation L-15 — is an advanced jet trainer (AJT) developed with technical assistance from Yakovlev OKB. The JL-10 was designed to school pilots for a new generation of Chinese fighters including the J-10, J-11, J-15, J-16 and J-20.

From the outset it was planned to develop two different versions: the standard JL-10/L-15A AJT, powered by two Ukrainian AI-222-25 turbofans, and a dedicated L-15B LIFT, powered by two AI-222-25Fs with afterburning to provide supersonic capability.

As a new design based on the Yak-130, the JL-10 makes use of a more modern airframe — especially in comparison with the rival JL-9 — with prominent leading-edge root extensions (LERXes), a large vertical tail fin and a modern aerodynamic configuration which is expected to allow maneuvers at angles of attack of up to 30 per cent. The cockpit is much more advanced than that of the JL-9 — it’s a fully digital glass environment with HUD, three color MFDs, hands on throttle and stick (HOTAS) controls and three-axis quadruplex digital FBW. For weapons training, the JL-10 has four underwing and two wingtip pylons for a wide variety of stores plus an optional gun pod underneath the fuselage. The standard JL-10 is equipped with a small radar, while the L-15B can even carry a small passive electronically scanned array (PESA) fire-control radar.

The first prototype L-15 AJT was completed in September 2005 and its first flight was completed — after delays due to engine problems — on March 13, 2006. The first example was powered by two interim DV-2 turbofans and was followed by an improved AJT prototype using two AI-222-25 turbofans that took to the air on May 10, 2008. However, development of the LIFT version still suffered from the slow progress of the afterburning AI-222K-25F. It finally few for the first time on October 26, 2010. The machine differs from the JL-10 on account of a stretched forward section and longer rear section, and is powered by two AI-222K-25F turbofans with prominent afterburner nozzles.

A first ‘true’ domestic AJT version, designated as the JL-10, was finally unveiled before its first flight on July 1, 2013. Since then, several prototypes have been noted undergoing testing and, based on images from mid-2016, it was assumed that the type was in series production for both services, an assumption confirmed in early 2017. Naval aviation received its first aircraft — dubbed the JL-10H — in March 2017. In future it seems as if the L-15 will be fitted with domestically produced engines. The standard JL-10 is planned to receive an indigenous turbofan without afterburning (actually an AI-222-25 copy), which was flown for the first time in May 2016.

The L-15B is thought to use the WS-17 Minshan turbofan with a maximum thrust of 10,362lb (4,700kg) with afterburning, developed by the Guizhou Aero Engine Research Institute. The same engine is rumored to have been tested on an L-15 prototype. Since September 2013 there have been suggestions that the JL-10 might be adopted by naval aviation as a carrierbased trainer, possibly based on the L-15B airframe with the more powerful engines. This remains unconfirmed.

At least three different variants are currently available for export: the standard L-15A, comparable to the JL-10 and the L-15Z already in service with the Zambian Air Force; the L-15B, based on the LIFT version and available with combat-capable avionics; and finally the L-15C, which combines the L-15B’s avionics with the airframe of the L-15A. The Chinese training aircraft family is steadily expanding into new markets and will perhaps pave the way for more extensive global fighter sales in future.
 
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It is well known that Hongdu contacted Yakowlew, which even made the preliminary design:


via: http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/trainers.html

Attached are original Russian proposals:

View attachment 523935 View attachment 523936



And now it's your turn ... besides your other claims in development line, where is a TVC development of the AI-222-25F available?

So, let us get this straight. Just because Yakovlev participated in the project, and they previously created the Yak trainer, you are saying that JL-10 is based on Yak?
 
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Dude there are tons of sources on this. I think its better to admit ones mistake or misunderstanding and move on rather to try to dig in and defend a misconceived idea.

China actually has two variants of the L-15 in service. The one with their Navy does not have an afterburning engine and the dimensions are slightly different (no radar in that one either I believe). For reference, look at the pictures posted by AzadPakistan and compare the lack of engine nozzles on the last one with the ones above.

Anyways, I will try to post a recent article on this trainer for you guys

From Combat Aircraft Dec 2018 issue...

A new generation

Perhaps the most eagerly awaited trainer to enter PLAAF and PLA Naval Aviation service is the Hongdu JL-10 Falcon. This type — which began life with the export designation L-15 — is an advanced jet trainer (AJT) developed with technical assistance from Yakovlev OKB. The JL-10 was designed to school pilots for a new generation of Chinese fighters including the J-10, J-11, J-15, J-16 and J-20.

From the outset it was planned to develop two different versions: the standard JL-10/L-15A AJT, powered by two Ukrainian AI-222-25 turbofans, and a dedicated L-15B LIFT, powered by two AI-222-25Fs with afterburning to provide supersonic capability.

As a new design based on the Yak-130, the JL-10 makes use of a more modern airframe — especially in comparison with the rival JL-9 — with prominent leading-edge root extensions (LERXes), a large vertical tail fin and a modern aerodynamic configuration which is expected to allow maneuvers at angles of attack of up to 30 per cent. The cockpit is much more advanced than that of the JL-9 — it’s a fully digital glass environment with HUD, three color MFDs, hands on throttle and stick (HOTAS) controls and three-axis quadruplex digital FBW. For weapons training, the JL-10 has four underwing and two wingtip pylons for a wide variety of stores plus an optional gun pod underneath the fuselage. The standard JL-10 is equipped with a small radar, while the L-15B can even carry a small passive electronically scanned array (PESA) fire-control radar.

The first prototype L-15 AJT was completed in September 2005 and its first flight was completed — after delays due to engine problems — on March 13, 2006. The first example was powered by two interim DV-2 turbofans and was followed by an improved AJT prototype using two AI-222-25 turbofans that took to the air on May 10, 2008. However, development of the LIFT version still suffered from the slow progress of the afterburning AI-222K-25F. It finally few for the first time on October 26, 2010. The machine differs from the JL-10 on account of a stretched forward section and longer rear section, and is powered by two AI-222K-25F turbofans with prominent afterburner nozzles.

A first ‘true’ domestic AJT version, designated as the JL-10, was finally unveiled before its first flight on July 1, 2013. Since then, several prototypes have been noted undergoing testing and, based on images from mid-2016, it was assumed that the type was in series production for both services, an assumption confirmed in early 2017. Naval aviation received its first aircraft — dubbed the JL-10H — in March 2017. In future it seems as if the L-15 will be fitted with domestically produced engines. The standard JL-10 is planned to receive an indigenous turbofan without afterburning (actually an AI-222-25 copy), which was flown for the first time in May 2016.

The L-15B is thought to use the WS-17 Minshan turbofan with a maximum thrust of 10,362lb (4,700kg) with afterburning, developed by the Guizhou Aero Engine Research Institute. The same engine is rumored to have been tested on an L-15 prototype. Since September 2013 there have been suggestions that the JL-10 might be adopted by naval aviation as a carrierbased trainer, possibly based on the L-15B airframe with the more powerful engines. This remains unconfirmed.

At least three different variants are currently available for export: the standard L-15A, comparable to the JL-10 and the L-15Z already in service with the Zambian Air Force; the L-15B, based on the LIFT version and available with combat-capable avionics; and finally the L-15C, which combines the L-15B’s avionics with the airframe of the L-15A. The Chinese training aircraft family is steadily expanding into new markets and will perhaps pave the way for more extensive global fighter sales in future.

It shall be quite sure WS-17 mingshan engine is ready despite engine supply is disrupt by US meddling. No sign of slow down for production of JL-10 into service.
 
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So, let us get this straight. Just because Yakovlev participated in the project, and they previously created the Yak trainer, you are saying that JL-10 is based on Yak?

I just changed the sentences to bold that help answer your question
 
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I just changed the sentences to bold that help answer your question

JL-10 during its development went through 3 different prototypes. The change in later prototypes was as drastic as later prototypes of FC-1. Its chief engineer was a long time Hongdu employee working since early 80s. In his early interview, he talks about difficulties in fly by wire control system and wind tunnel testing in Russia. He emphasizes that the project is a sole venture. And he draws parallels with manufacturing process of K-8, that is, he compared the rivets on K-8 with rivets on JL-10.

My initial statement was that JL-10 is the next iteration of K-8. If you look at the pics I posted above, the early iteration looks like K-8 with modified wings, side intakes, and sleeker vertical tail. The final iteration of course looks similar to Yak-130. It does not negate my statement.
 
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JL-10/15 look nothing like K-8 no matter how you look at them, early prototypes or the final product.
 
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JL-10/15 look nothing like K-8 no matter how you look at them, early prototypes or the final product.

Well, I would tend to agree. What changes my perception is when Wikipedia says that FTC-2000 is basically a FT-7 with revamped front fuselage and side intakes. I mean, the two look nothing like each other, but there you have it.
 
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Dude there are tons of sources on this. I think its better to admit ones mistake or misunderstanding and move on rather to try to dig in and defend a misconceived idea.

China actually has two variants of the L-15 in service. The one with their Navy does not have an afterburning engine and the dimensions are slightly different (no radar in that one either I believe). For reference, look at the pictures posted by AzadPakistan and compare the lack of engine nozzles on the last one with the ones above.

Anyways, I will try to post a recent article on this trainer for you guys

From Combat Aircraft Dec 2018 issue...

A new generation

Perhaps the most eagerly awaited trainer to enter PLAAF and PLA Naval Aviation service is the Hongdu JL-10 Falcon. This type — which began life with the export designation L-15 — is an advanced jet trainer (AJT) developed with technical assistance from Yakovlev OKB. The JL-10 was designed to school pilots for a new generation of Chinese fighters including the J-10, J-11, J-15, J-16 and J-20.

From the outset it was planned to develop two different versions: the standard JL-10/L-15A AJT, powered by two Ukrainian AI-222-25 turbofans, and a dedicated L-15B LIFT, powered by two AI-222-25Fs with afterburning to provide supersonic capability.

As a new design based on the Yak-130, the JL-10 makes use of a more modern airframe — especially in comparison with the rival JL-9 — with prominent leading-edge root extensions (LERXes), a large vertical tail fin and a modern aerodynamic configuration which is expected to allow maneuvers at angles of attack of up to 30 per cent. The cockpit is much more advanced than that of the JL-9 — it’s a fully digital glass environment with HUD, three color MFDs, hands on throttle and stick (HOTAS) controls and three-axis quadruplex digital FBW. For weapons training, the JL-10 has four underwing and two wingtip pylons for a wide variety of stores plus an optional gun pod underneath the fuselage. The standard JL-10 is equipped with a small radar, while the L-15B can even carry a small passive electronically scanned array (PESA) fire-control radar.

The first prototype L-15 AJT was completed in September 2005 and its first flight was completed — after delays due to engine problems — on March 13, 2006. The first example was powered by two interim DV-2 turbofans and was followed by an improved AJT prototype using two AI-222-25 turbofans that took to the air on May 10, 2008. However, development of the LIFT version still suffered from the slow progress of the afterburning AI-222K-25F. It finally few for the first time on October 26, 2010. The machine differs from the JL-10 on account of a stretched forward section and longer rear section, and is powered by two AI-222K-25F turbofans with prominent afterburner nozzles.

A first ‘true’ domestic AJT version, designated as the JL-10, was finally unveiled before its first flight on July 1, 2013. Since then, several prototypes have been noted undergoing testing and, based on images from mid-2016, it was assumed that the type was in series production for both services, an assumption confirmed in early 2017. Naval aviation received its first aircraft — dubbed the JL-10H — in March 2017. In future it seems as if the L-15 will be fitted with domestically produced engines. The standard JL-10 is planned to receive an indigenous turbofan without afterburning (actually an AI-222-25 copy), which was flown for the first time in May 2016.

The L-15B is thought to use the WS-17 Minshan turbofan with a maximum thrust of 10,362lb (4,700kg) with afterburning, developed by the Guizhou Aero Engine Research Institute. The same engine is rumored to have been tested on an L-15 prototype. Since September 2013 there have been suggestions that the JL-10 might be adopted by naval aviation as a carrierbased trainer, possibly based on the L-15B airframe with the more powerful engines. This remains unconfirmed.

At least three different variants are currently available for export: the standard L-15A, comparable to the JL-10 and the L-15Z already in service with the Zambian Air Force; the L-15B, based on the LIFT version and available with combat-capable avionics; and finally the L-15C, which combines the L-15B’s avionics with the airframe of the L-15A. The Chinese training aircraft family is steadily expanding into new markets and will perhaps pave the way for more extensive global fighter sales in future.
Why to Matty avionics of L15 b with l15a to make c version
 
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CATIC are integrating Ukrainian AI-222-25 powerplant into the Hongdu L-15B. It’s being done in a bid to win the PAF’s LIFT requirement which calls for an after burning engine.

DtIukU5WwAAentT.jpg
IIRC, the last Air Chief said that After Burning Engine trainer operating cost is similar to a jet fighter. Then what has changed now?
 
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The weaponry shown is similar to the thunder stock. This aircraft besides training can complement A5s job for close air support missions as well.
It Should also be integrated with a grifo type radar and bombing computers like on Rose Mirages. This can be done for a separate squadron or common for all, so in war time an advance mini Mirage is available for strike rolls.
 
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IIRC, the last Air Chief said that After Burning Engine trainer operating cost is similar to a jet fighter. Then what has changed now?

New chief needs his own acquisitions :D

He is retiring too in 2 years or so
 
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