Hot deals for LIFT planes in the Middle East, UAE, Saudi Arabia and Egypt

[sami_1]

Korea's choice of the ESR-500 radar to integrate into the FA-50 is an affirmation of its role as a training aircraft, not a light fighter. The radar is designed for light training aircraft, not a fighter. Therefore, the scope of work will be limited and modest. South Korea's retreat from integrating the APG-83 radar also for several reasons, mainly the price of the aircraft. Very high 50+ million dollars and the integration of advanced radar will increase the price of the plane by 5 million dollars. The plane still has a weak GE-404 engine with a capacity of 17700 pounds, and it does not provide sufficient thrust capacity for air-to-air missions or even energy for an advanced radar, so a modest limited-performance radar was chosen, so its ability to support a missile The air-to-air range does not exceed 110 kilometers. The plane may serve as a training circuit for countries such as Saudi Arabia. The Emirates chose the Chinese L-15 plane for technical and operational reasons, as well as the fact that the Emirates is now working in the bowels of African countries to steal their wealth, as well as a tool for America and Israel. The use of non-Western planes provides the Emirates with freedom of use without Western restrictions On planes to support militias in African countries, so there are only countries left like Saudi Arabia and perhaps Morocco to export the plane, or some African countries that want to replace the F-5 planes and do not have real threats asking for fighters

Here lies the problem, as the tasks of LIFT / LCA aircraft are expanding to confront UAV / UCAV aircraft, and the aircraft is moving from the stage of aircraft with turboprop engines to aircraft with turbofan and turbojet engines.
Which requires aircraft piloted by high-performance pilots and powerful radars to detect them early

 

[Gomig-21]

Great thread, Sami. As much as I like the Tejas, I think the Indians will divulge almost the entire methods to defeat the systems in that jet to the Israelis, whereas the Koreans most likely not. Making the FA-50 a possible better choice. Just cost is a concern plus US parts.

 

[sami_1]

The real face of the FA-Block 20
The declared specifications of the aircraft, as we can see, are modest capabilities in the field of payload and air combat, and even the Korean radar, ESR-500A, is an X-band active electronically scanned array, a very weak version that will not exceed the capacity of the M346 Grifo E radar.

This explains the extent of the high prices of the aircraft in exchange for its modest performance, which will make in the future a winding of corruption in the sale of this aircraft, whether in Mali or other countries.

Currently, ASRAAM and ASRAAM Brimstone missiles are being offered to be integrated into the aircraft, and Poland has requested the integration of the ALQ-33 SNIPER targeting depot.
Here, the comparison must be opened once again between the modest performance of the aircraft and its lower capacity compared to other alternatives

https://www.blogbeforeflight.net/2021/01/here-are-more-details-on-m346-low-radar.html

The Italians tout the efficiency of the radar that it could actually detect the F-35
The Italian from a good distance has not yet been announced because this affects the marketing of the F-35

ESR-500A

There is no presentation of its specifications except that it is a copy of the Raytheon Phantom Strike radar, which is a copy for fairness such as helicopters, drones, light training pilots, and the classification reduced performance until it is sold to countries, even unfriendly ones, without adding good capabilities to these platforms

 

[FuturePAF]

China eyes MidEast market with upgraded L-15 attack trainer in Dubai
Though the Middle East is a major market with enormous potential for China, they’ve yet to establish any real foothold in the region.

By Chyrine Mezher on November 22, 2021 at 1:12 PM

A Chinese L-15 attack trainer on display at the Dubai airshow 2021. (Chyrine Mezher/Breaking Defense)

DUBAI: China used last week’s Dubai Airshow to show off its upgraded version of the L-15 attack fighter trainer, as part of an effort to broaden its influence in the Mideast and North Africa.
Showcased both on ground and in the air during the five-day show, the latest variant of the aircraft features
“high performance, reliability and cost efficiency,” a spokesperson at China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC) told Breaking Defense.

“A lot has changed since we first showcased the aircraft here in 2009,” he said. “With the advanced aerodynamic layout and avionics, the aircraft provides superior fighter-like performance.”
New upgrades mainly include advanced training and mission planning systems and improved avionics. It can also be fitted with a 23mm cannon pod, small diameter bomb, short and medium range air-to-air missile, and laser guided bombs weighing 250 and 500kg.

The aircraft can perform Lead-in fighter training (LIFT) for 4th and 5th gen fighters as well as undertake companion training in operational wings supported by the embedded training system (ETS) and mission planning and debriefing system. For combat, it can execute tactical missions like air combat, air strike, air reconnaissance, and Forward Air Control missions.
The spokesman pushed the message that the ability to be both a trainer and attack platform fits the needs for countries in the region, saying “The L-15’s presence at the Dubai Airshow is expected to attract potential long-term customers for China.”
Market penetration for the L-15 has yet to really happen. Zambia is the only export customer for the aircraft, having ordered six units, with the first batch received in 2016. (The Chinese air force “has ordered a total of 100 units from which several are now in operation,” the spokesperson claimed.)

And while the Middle East is a major market with enormous potential for China, they’ve yet to establish any real foothold in the region, despite Beijing’s signaled interest in expanding its regional ties. Perhaps the biggest Chinese announcement from this week was a relatively benign one: that the UAE and China are opening the first regional distribution hub for aircraft logistics in Abu Dhabi.

“China eclipses Russia both technologically and economically by leaps and bounds,” said Brandon C. Patrick, a Mid-East defense analyst. “Under Xi Jinping, it has sought to export its influence and establish itself as a superpower through various forms of cooperation including military aid and arms sales.”

However, “The Gulf states in particular have very deep pockets and can afford the very best, so they don’t need to compromise on quality,” said Patrick. “Whatever China offers would need to compete at the same level as the American, European and even Russian platforms toward which the MENA states traditionally lean.”
View attachment 796377
K-8 COCKPIT UPGRADE

Instead, Patrick suggested, China should look for opportunities in North African states like Egypt or Algeria, where Russian manufactured aircraft are more prevalent. “In countries where US and European aircraft are more common, as in the Gulf states, the chances of a Chinese breakthrough are lower,” he added.
And if China can’t make inroads into the MENA countries with historic ties to the US, maybe it will look elsewhere. Word recently emerged that China and Iran have reached an expansive agreement for military and economic cooperation spanning the next 25 years.
“The agreement stands to make China Iran’s primary international ally and strongest backer from both military and economic perspectives,” Patrick said. “This won’t sit well with the Gulf states who view any move to strengthen Iran as a threat to regional stability.”

This makes it difficult to imagine the new China-Iran agreement as not having an impact on China’s potential list of customers in the region. “Based on that alone, we can surmise that China is targeting the non-gulf states for potential sales,” Patrick concluded.

View attachment 796376

China eyes MidEast market with upgraded L-15 attack trainer in Dubai - Breaking Defense

Though the Middle East is a major market with enormous potential for China, they’ve yet to establish any real foothold in the region.

breakingdefense.com

Probably could a modern IRST under the nose and add another layer of training or guide longer range munitions (A2A, A2G, and Anti-shipping). A modern small AESA radar to fit the nose would make training in all that entails equally completed before the pilot steps foot into a frontline fighter. Furthermore, using an AESA for its EW role, with space for a back seater, would allow airmen in the EW squadrons to get real world experience seeing EW in action, from the point of view of the pilots.

The L-15 looks lien a very cost effective platform, and with its two engines make it potentially safer for flights over the water and long distances, to austere bases.

 

[Gomig-21]

Probably could a modern IRST under the nose and add another layer of training or guide longer range munitions (A2A, A2G, and Anti-shipping). A modern small AESA radar to fit the nose would make training in all that entails equally completed before the pilot steps foot into a frontline fighter. Furthermore, using an AESA for its EW role, with space for a back seater, would allow airmen in the EW squadrons to get real world experience seeing EW in action, from the point of view of the pilots.

Indeed, spot on with everything you said. I think Sami's last post is right on, too. China has not pushed hard enough in the ME for arms sales. They could do so much more to compete with both, Russia and especially the US.

The L-15 looks lien a very cost effective platform, and with its two engines make it potentially safer for flights over the water and long distances, to austere bases.

Agreed. Even though I really admire what India has done with the Tejas and its potential for Egypt, I think the L-15 is a better choice for several reasons.

 

[Gomig-21]

View attachment 932839
The real face of the FA-Block 20
The declared specifications of the aircraft, as we can see, are modest capabilities in the field of payload and air combat, and even the Korean radar, ESR-500A, is an X-band active electronically scanned array, a very weak version that will not exceed the capacity of the M346 Grifo E radar.

This explains the extent of the high prices of the aircraft in exchange for its modest performance, which will make in the future a winding of corruption in the sale of this aircraft, whether in Mali or other countries.

Currently, ASRAAM and ASRAAM Brimstone missiles are being offered to be integrated into the aircraft, and Poland has requested the integration of the ALQ-33 SNIPER targeting depot.
Here, the comparison must be opened once again between the modest performance of the aircraft and its lower capacity compared to other alternatives

View attachment 932845
https://www.blogbeforeflight.net/2021/01/here-are-more-details-on-m346-low-radar.html

The Italians tout the efficiency of the radar that it could actually detect the F-35
The Italian from a good distance has not yet been announced because this affects the marketing of the F-35
View attachment 932843


ESR-500A
View attachment 932844
There is no presentation of its specifications except that it is a copy of the Raytheon Phantom Strike radar, which is a copy for fairness such as helicopters, drones, light training pilots, and the classification reduced performance until it is sold to countries, even unfriendly ones, without adding good capabilities to these platforms

I agree completely, now. Like I said, as much as I like the Tejas and working with the Indian programs, I think the FA-50 is the better choice for an Egyptian assembly line and procurement.

 

[Ghostkiller]

I agree completely, now. Like I said, as much as I like the Tejas and working with the Indian programs, I think the FA-50 is the better choice for an Egyptian assembly line and procurement.

Exactly at least, it is matured and getting a lot of offers and deals. I think it can have our own specifications.

 

[Gomig-21]

Someone on the Russian forum claimed the Chinese jet radars are much better than the US ones
I must admit I fell out of my chair when I read that LMAO.

Not to take away from the Chinese, but there is NO WAY them come even close to the mid early US APGs. Sorry.

 

[sami_1]

Exactly at least, it is matured and getting a lot of offers and deals. I think it can have our own specifications.

The Chinese plane L-15 The Chinese have put forward in the past engines with higher thrust capacities of 5500 KG
and AESA radar
and a payload of 4 tons
And the aircraft at a low price can integrate a variety of Chinese munitions series
The Chinese and Egyptians are afraid of the level of quality of the aircraft as a result of the Egyptians' re-development of the K8E
More than once

We come to another point
The Egyptians do not want any technical risk, but everything has advantages and disadvantages
The Indian aircraft is already in service with India. In general, more than 50 aircraft entered service. India started production of the LCA-MK1A aircraft, while South Korea produced the T-50 / FA-50 version without AESA radar.
You are at the same level of technical risk

So one of the real reasons for Egypt's desire for the T-50B / FA-50
It is marketing it to the Gulf, especially Saudi Arabia, and not because it is the best
The point of transfer of production technologies is cooperation with the Koreans in the transfer of manufacturing technologies, regardless of the T-50/FA-50, but Korea will made a new aircraft derived from the KT-1, perhaps with 2 small hybrid engines as a new generation of basic training aircraft, which requires time. Egypt to replace the two aircraft GROB 115E & EMB-112 with this new version

The Indian plane LCA-MK1A remains a real fighter and not a patchwork for a training plane. It has distinction in flight envelope, range, payload, speed, better radar and better electronic warfare systems. It is suitable for clearing the air from UCAV aircraft. Although the engine is the same, the Indian version of the engine has a higher capacity of 2400 additional pounds.
While the FA-50 BLOCK 20 plane still performs much less, whether in capabilities, ammunition, or the ability to carry out tasks.
The Egyptians see the FA-50 as an extension of the F-16, as it was designed by Lockheed Martin.

The Indians put forward additional developments in the LCA-MK1A plane, which is to reduce the weight by 400 kilograms and reduce the price by 4 million dollars, which is also a greater incentive for Egypt.
Other factors support the Indian offer
India can easily transfer technologies to Egypt with fewer restrictions than South Korea, which is affiliated with America, and with a wider range and also at a lower cost.
The Egyptian-Indian trade exchange is balanced, while the Egyptian-Korean trade exchange is of course in favor of the Koreans
Koreans have always enjoyed extreme greed and desire to reap more profits
Which makes their products more expensive
The Indians offered Egypt a license to produce 250 aircraft for Egypt
In other words, Egypt can simply obtain a package of technical transfer programs from India in areas that Korea cannot offer to Egypt, or at a lower cost

The simplest example is the UTTAM radar. India is working on producing several copies of it for the aircraft MiG-29 SU-30/35 MIRAGE-2000 Until the production of a special version of the F-16, in the near future the F-16 will become outside the interest of Lockheed Martin to achieve profits. Countries can work on upgrade the old F-16 BLOCK 40 aircraft, whether by themselves or even European countries such as Italy and Greece.

Raytheon PhantomStrike Defects

The Raytheon PhantomStrike AESA is an air-cooled AESA. It will bring all the disadvantages that air cooled AESA radars have especially at higher altitudes where the density of air is much lower and hence the effectiveness of air cooling drops significantly. At it's peak, almost 50% drop in cooling happens at 36,000 ft.

But the FA-50 being a light fighter with a small radome (the FA-50's radome diameter is much smaller than that of the Tejas Mk1), electrical power, space is restricted and hence cooling is a major issue.


This is an inferior solution to the Tejas Mk1 with Uttam Mk1 AESA, both of which use a liquid cooling system.

 

[sami_1]

 

[Gomig-21]

The last clip shown on this video is and has always been very concerning to me (and I'm sure many others) when they mentioned the new agreement of co-producing the Israeli Heron UAV which (in the narrator's own voice) said "is a major indication of the growing synergy between India and the Israeli defense industry."

Being that there is 100% truth to that, why on earth would we want to purchase any weapons systems, especially the LCA Tejas from India who would most surely give the Jews every single detail of the jet's operational capabiliies and how to defeat it? It makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever despite how much I actually like that aircraft and the huge potential it has in Egypt with the ToT offered and the newer and much improved models to come?

@sami_1 I know you are a big fan of this deal but doesn't that concern you? @The SC & @joker88 & @Ghostkiller what about you fellows? I'd even like to ask any Indian members like @MirageBlue and others.

 

[Ghostkiller]

@sami_1 I know you are a big fan of this deal but doesn't that concern you? @The SC & @joker88 & @Ghostkiller what about you fellows? I'd even like to ask any Indian members like @MirageBlue and others.

Any cooperation with India, surely our Armed Forces know that there is parts where Israel knows a lot of infos about the equipments etc... Like any other country. For me the Tejas is a dead deal and like I said the FA-50 most likely to be the winner of this competition.

 

[MirageBlue]

The last clip shown on this video is and has always been very concerning to me (and I'm sure many others) when they mentioned the new agreement of co-producing the Israeli Heron UAV which (in the narrator's own voice) said "is a major indication of the growing synergy between India and the Israeli defense industry."

Being that there is 100% truth to that, why on earth would we want to purchase any weapons systems, especially the LCA Tejas from India who would most surely give the Jews every single detail of the jet's operational capabiliies and how to defeat it? It makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever despite how much I actually like that aircraft and the huge potential it has in Egypt with the ToT offered and the newer and much improved models to come?

@sami_1 I know you are a big fan of this deal but doesn't that concern you? @The SC & @joker88 & @Ghostkiller what about you fellows? I'd even like to ask any Indian members like @MirageBlue and others.

The way I see it, Egypt has been a friendly nation with India ever since our independence. The fact that India and Egypt attemped to collaborate on the Helwan HA-300 fighter is testament to a serious level of trust on both sides since many decades ago. Back then there was no diplomatic ties with Israel, and that was how it remained till the mid 1990s. But after the establishment of diplomatic ties between Israel and India, things have very very rapidly changed. The degree of change is greater than that with any other, except in ties with the United States, which have drastically changed over the last 2 decades. Multiple reasons exist for the sea change in India-Israeli ties, and much of it relate to the quality of Israeli weapons systems and their price point. Given how India has been averse to being dependent on only Russia or trusting the USA too much, Israel provided a lot of weapons that were either too costly to acquire from EU or didn't have an affordable equivalent elsewhere at that quality.

As things stand today, the Tejas Mk1 has quite a few critical Israeli components.

Most notably the Tejas Mk1 has an Elta 2032 radar back end (antenna and the actuator is indigenous). On the Tejas Mk1A, the first 40 fighters will be delivered to the IAF with the Elta 2052 AESA radar. After that, the Elta 2052 will be replaced by an Indian Uttam Mk1 AESA radar which is currently being tested on Tejas prototype fighters.

There is also an Elta SPJ that will be pod mounted on the Tejas Mk1A given that it doesn't have internal space for a EW suite.

The Israeli Litening LDP is a key feature of the targeting system of the Tejas and is heavily used for A2G missions.

The ACMI pod that the IAF uses for all it's fighters are also from Israel.

Tejas and Tejas Mk1A also have Elbit DASH HMDS, Derby BVRAAM, Python V WVRAAM and Griffin LGBs. But there are other non Israeli options for BVRAAM (Indian Astra Mk1 and Mk2) as well as WVRAAM (ASRAAM and R-73E).

But if Egypt were to be willing to wait (which I'm not sure of) the Tejas Mk2 is the definitive Tejas model that will IMO offer the best balance in terms of cost versus performance and capabilities. But it won't be ready for production before 2029-2030.

If replacing all Israeli systems with non Israeli systems is going to be mandatory then it will be a costly and time consuming process to replace them all, given how much work it has taken to get it to this point.

 

[Faceless]

The last clip shown on this video is and has always been very concerning to me (and I'm sure many others) when they mentioned the new agreement of co-producing the Israeli Heron UAV which (in the narrator's own voice) said "is a major indication of the growing synergy between India and the Israeli defense industry."

Being that there is 100% truth to that, why on earth would we want to purchase any weapons systems, especially the LCA Tejas from India who would most surely give the Jews every single detail of the jet's operational capabiliies and how to defeat it? It makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever despite how much I actually like that aircraft and the huge potential it has in Egypt with the ToT offered and the newer and much improved models to come?

@sami_1 I know you are a big fan of this deal but doesn't that concern you? @The SC & @joker88 & @Ghostkiller what about you fellows? I'd even like to ask any Indian members like @MirageBlue and others.

If you look from a purely technical perspective FA 50 has more Israeli and American content than Tejas, so if percentage of foreign content is your only criteria, Tejas mk1a fares better than FA 50

 

[Ghostkiller]

If you look from a purely technical perspective FA 50 has more Israeli and American content than Tejas, so if percentage of foreign content is your only criteria, Tejas mk1a fares better than FA 50

For the FA-50, it is only the radar (ELM-2032) which can be replaced by an american radar AN/APG series type or an indigenous SKorean radar (ESR-500A)