Can the Sukhoi Su-30 have the edge over U.S. fighters in aerial combat?

[shree835]

By Dario Leone

Su-30s would beat F-15s every time. But…..
We recently explained how, 10 years ago, Exercise Cope India put the Indian Air Force Su-30 against U.S. Air Force F-15C jets with results that are still open to debate: since the drills took place during F-22 budget reviews, some analysts affirm the Air Force intentionally accepted the challenging ROE (Rules Of Engagement) to gain more Raptors. Others claim this version of the story was invented to try to save face after the Indians achieved an impressive 9:1 kill ratio.

Even if we might never know the truth, it’s undeniable that, at least on paper, the Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker has been one of the best Russian combat planes.

The Su-27 belongs to the same class of the U.S. F-14 and F-15, but unlike the American fighters it can fly at an angle of attack of 30 degrees and can also perform the “Pugachev Cobra”.

In a Cobra, the plane suddenly raises the nose to the veritical position (or beyond) before dropping it back to the normal flight, maintaining more or less the same altitude through the entire maneuver.

The Su-27 and its “Cobra” have been the highlight of many air shows from the end of the 1980s to the middle of the 1990s. But, since then, the Flanker maneuverability has been furtherly enhanced.

The improved multirole Su-30MK is a Flanker variant fitted with both canard forewings and thrust-vectoring nozzles which have improved its agility.

But how can this kind of maneuvers be used in combat?

A clear idea comes from an authoritative source: Aviation Week and Space Technology magazine.

In “Su-30MK Beats F-15C ‘Every Time’” published in 2002 on AW&ST, David A. Fulghum and Douglas Barrie reported that the Su-30 used its maneuverability to beat the F-15 in several engagements conducted in a complex of 360-deg. simulation domes at Boeing’s St. Louis facilities.

According to the article (that is often referenced by Indian media outlets to highlight the presumed Su-30 superiority on the American fighter jets) an anonymous USAF officer explained that in the case of a missed BVR missile (like the AA-12 Adder) shot by the Flanker, the Su-30 could turn into the clutter notch of the F-15′s radar, where the Eagle’s Doppler was ineffective.

As the AW&ST story explained in detail, this maneuver could be accomplished making a descending, right-angle turn to drop below the approaching F-15 while reducing the Su-30′s relative forward speed close to zero: even if this is a very old air combat tactic, the USAF officer said that the Sukhoi could perform effectively this maneuver thanks to its ability to reduce rapidly its speed and then quickly regain it.

If the Flanker driver performed correctly the maneuver, the Su-30 was invisible to the F-15’s radar until the Eagle was inside the AA-11 Archer IR missile range, since the F-15’s Doppler radar relied on movements of its targets.

As pointed out by the USAF officer, this tactic “works in the simulator every time,” however, only few countries have pilots with the required skills to fly those scenarios.

This happened about 10 years ago.

In the meanwhile, American pilots have received their F-22 Raptor stealth planes (facing also some serious problems).

But some unique features, such as the power of its engines and its superb aerodynamics, make the Flanker, in the right hands and in the proper scenario, a great dogfighter and a very tough enemy for every western jet WVR (Within Visual Range).

Moreover the Su-30 could carry the short range IR missile AA-11 Archer which in the ‘90s was the best short-range AAM in the world since it could be linked to the pilot’s helmet fire control system and was capable to be fired at targets until 45 degrees off the axis of the aircraft: both these capabilities were not possessed by the AIM-9M, the main western short range missile at the time (later replaced by the AIM-9X Sidewinder).

The Aviationist » Can the Sukhoi Su-30 have the edge over U.S. fighters in aerial combat?

 

[maxpayne]

By Dario Leone

Su-30s would beat F-15s every time. But…..
We recently explained how, 10 years ago, Exercise Cope India put the Indian Air Force Su-30 against U.S. Air Force F-15C jets with results that are still open to debate: since the drills took place during F-22 budget reviews, some analysts affirm the Air Force intentionally accepted the challenging ROE (Rules Of Engagement) to gain more Raptors. Others claim this version of the story was invented to try to save face after the Indians achieved an impressive 9:1 kill ratio.

Even if we might never know the truth, it’s undeniable that, at least on paper, the Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker has been one of the best Russian combat planes.

The Su-27 belongs to the same class of the U.S. F-14 and F-15, but unlike the American fighters it can fly at an angle of attack of 30 degrees and can also perform the “Pugachev Cobra”.

In a Cobra, the plane suddenly raises the nose to the veritical position (or beyond) before dropping it back to the normal flight, maintaining more or less the same altitude through the entire maneuver.

The Su-27 and its “Cobra” have been the highlight of many air shows from the end of the 1980s to the middle of the 1990s. But, since then, the Flanker maneuverability has been furtherly enhanced.

The improved multirole Su-30MK is a Flanker variant fitted with both canard forewings and thrust-vectoring nozzles which have improved its agility.

But how can this kind of maneuvers be used in combat?

A clear idea comes from an authoritative source: Aviation Week and Space Technology magazine.

In “Su-30MK Beats F-15C ‘Every Time’” published in 2002 on AW&ST, David A. Fulghum and Douglas Barrie reported that the Su-30 used its maneuverability to beat the F-15 in several engagements conducted in a complex of 360-deg. simulation domes at Boeing’s St. Louis facilities.

According to the article (that is often referenced by Indian media outlets to highlight the presumed Su-30 superiority on the American fighter jets) an anonymous USAF officer explained that in the case of a missed BVR missile (like the AA-12 Adder) shot by the Flanker, the Su-30 could turn into the clutter notch of the F-15′s radar, where the Eagle’s Doppler was ineffective.

As the AW&ST story explained in detail, this maneuver could be accomplished making a descending, right-angle turn to drop below the approaching F-15 while reducing the Su-30′s relative forward speed close to zero: even if this is a very old air combat tactic, the USAF officer said that the Sukhoi could perform effectively this maneuver thanks to its ability to reduce rapidly its speed and then quickly regain it.

If the Flanker driver performed correctly the maneuver, the Su-30 was invisible to the F-15’s radar until the Eagle was inside the AA-11 Archer IR missile range, since the F-15’s Doppler radar relied on movements of its targets.

As pointed out by the USAF officer, this tactic “works in the simulator every time,” however, only few countries have pilots with the required skills to fly those scenarios.

This happened about 10 years ago.

In the meanwhile, American pilots have received their F-22 Raptor stealth planes (facing also some serious problems).

But some unique features, such as the power of its engines and its superb aerodynamics, make the Flanker, in the right hands and in the proper scenario, a great dogfighter and a very tough enemy for every western jet WVR (Within Visual Range).

Moreover the Su-30 could carry the short range IR missile AA-11 Archer which in the ‘90s was the best short-range AAM in the world since it could be linked to the pilot’s helmet fire control system and was capable to be fired at targets until 45 degrees off the axis of the aircraft: both these capabilities were not possessed by the AIM-9M, the main western short range missile at the time (later replaced by the AIM-9X Sidewinder).

The Aviationist » Can the Sukhoi Su-30 have the edge over U.S. fighters in aerial combat?

Lets start clapping!

 

[acetophenol]

Lets start clapping!

To another crappy thread, you bet!!!

You can read the OP,make some genuine comments or just move on.Please don't start a troll war with your useless comments.

 

[Indus Falcon]

You can read the OP,make some genuine comments or just move on.Please don't start a troll war with your useless comments.

This topic has been discussed to death on this forum, but you and your countrymen's superiority complex gets the better of you!

 

[OCguy]

I would do some research on Red Flag 2008. Here is an American Colonel giving an assessment of how the planes are configured, how they performed, and also some insight into what India actually thinks of Russian engines. The Israeli jammers used by India seemed to impress him the most.

He says some very positive things about Indian pilots, and says them to a room of other pilots. That is much more authentic than when they are interviewed by a newspaper, and say nice things while in front of a microphone.

He does however also give some honest critical assessments.

The F-22 or F-35 aren't even really in question here, but it is always fun to see the speculation.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I would do some research on Red Flag 2008. Here is an American Colonel giving an assessment of how the planes are configured, how they performed, and also some insight into what India actually thinks of Russian engines. The Israeli jammers used by India seemed to impress him the most.

He says some very positive things about Indian pilots, and says them to a room of other pilots. That is much more authentic than when they are interviewed by a newspaper, and say nice things while in front of a microphone.

The F-22 or F-35 aren't even really in question here, but it is always fun to see the speculation.

Some points regarding that talk. His statement about FOD issues is correct. That issue was sorted out in the MiG-29 Fulcrum which has inlets on the wing upper surface which open while the main inlets close at take off. The Su-30 lacks this hence the IAF set up a SOP for time between launches just to ensure no needless mishaps in "peace-time". In full ops. this need not apply.
About the Jammers, he is pretty much on, even more so when he alludes to the MiG-21 Bison being pretty much invisible to the Legacy Fighter radars, viz. F-15, F-16 etc.

WRT to the F-22s and F-35s they bring a different set of capabilities to the table.

 

[Indus Falcon]

I would do some research on Red Flag 2008. Here is an American Colonel giving an assessment of how the planes are configured, how they performed, and also some insight into what India actually thinks of Russian engines. The Israeli jammers used by India seemed to impress him the most.

He says some very positive things about Indian pilots, and says them to a room of other pilots. That is much more authentic than when they are interviewed by a newspaper, and say nice things while in front of a microphone.

He does however also give some honest critical assessments.

The F-22 or F-35 aren't even really in question here, but it is always fun to see the speculation.

Keeping in mind that this was back in 2008. What do "YOU" think has happened since then?

 

[OCguy]

Keeping in mind that this was back in 2008. What do "YOU" think has happened since then?

The technological leap-frogging has absolutely continued, with advances in detection systems. But as soon as you have overcome an adversary's advantage, something new is developed to counter. And on and on the hamster-wheel turns.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

The technological leap-frogging has absolutely continued, with advances in detection systems. But as soon as you have overcome an adversary's advantage, something new is developed to counter. And on and on the hamster-wheel turns.

Sure that is going on all the time. And we can be sure that the USAF acted to tweak their own aircraft after that video was shot.
Just as the Russians have worked on making their already powerful radar (in the Colonel's own words) even more powerful, while adding on even more "bells and whistles" and even uprating the Flanker's engines. That is slated to be part of the MKI's Super-30 upgrade in turn.
So the game continues.

 

[DrSomnath999]

why is western media so insecure about SU 30 mki / indian flankers i just cant understand Similiar kind of articles have been posted many
times .

A US officer explained his views in a presentation everyone must have seen that video longtime back claiming Su 30 mki engines were faulty were replaced & all sort of fantasy stuffs , may be it was Bush's /US airforce paid presentation for the sake of US Forumers so that they can save their face in F16 net forums , key pub forums

but YES US airforce is definetly more advanced than IAF & would remain in future also
those exercises can only demonstrate pilot skills basically which IAF had shown to US airforce pilots

BTW an execrpt from an interesting encounter which demonstrates how advnced are russian electronic warfare systems are

On April 10, the Donald Cook, entered Black Sea waters and within 2 days, the Russian tactical bomber Su-24 “buzzed” the American destroyer. A few media outlets reported that Donald Cook’s crew was demoralised by this encounter and 27 American sailors resigned from the navy. What petrified the American crew so much?

Donald Cook is a 4th generation fleet destroyer of the US Navy. Its key weapon is the Tomahawk cruise missile with flying range up to 2500 km, which can carry nuclear explosives. In standard and striking set-ups the vessel carries 56 or 96 such missiles correspondingly.
The destroyer is equipped with the latest Aegis ballistic missile defence system military. Among other functions it can centralise the air defence forces of all the ships where it is installed in a common network, therefore allowing for tracking and shooting up hundreds of targets at the same time. Four huge standard radar aerials, which can substitute for a few ordinary radars, are located on the sides of the deck erection. About 50 intercept missiles of different classes are installed together with the Tomahawks in the universal launching installations on the bow and by the stern.


The Su-24 Russian tactical bomber which approached the Donald Cook carried no bombs or missiles but a container with the Khibiny radio-electronic military system. Having approached the destroyer, Khibiny was use to switch off the American destroyer’s radar, battle control circuits and data exchange systems. In other words, it turned off the whole Aegis by remote control. After this, the Su-24 simulated a missile attack at the “blind and deaf” ship, and repeated the manoeuvre 12 times.

When the Russian fighter left, the Donald Cook rushed to a Romanian port and never approached Russian waters again.
Russia surges ahead in radio-electronic warfare | Russia & India Report
.

BTW SU 35 is known to have KHIBINY M Electronic warfare suite


CHEERS

 

[OCguy]

^

 

[kṣamā]

why is western media so insecure about SU 30 mki / indian flankers i just cant understand Similiar kind of articles have been posted many
times .

A dumb US officer explained his retarded views in a presentation everyone must have seen that video longtime back claiming Su 30 mki engines were faulty were replaced & all sort of fantasy stuffs , may be it was Bush's /US airforce paid presentation for the sake of US Forumers so that they can save their face in F16 net forums , key pub forums

but YES US airforce is definetly more advanced than IAF & would remain in future also
those exercises can only demonstrate pilot skills basically which IAF had shown to US airforce pilots

BTW an execrpt from an interesting encounter which demonstrates how advnced are russian electronic warfare systems are



BTW SU 35 is known to have KHIBINY M Electronic warfare suite


CHEERS

Da*n that's quite some trick... 12 times... anyone would have pissed there shorts...I am feeling sorry for those guys.

 

[Dandpatta]

@Capt.Popeye & @OCguy other pilots (if any) - could you please explain in laymen terms why the SUs in Red Flag needed 60 seconds for consecutive take-offs? Couldn't understand the pilot presenter's point in the video. Kindly explain.

Also - what was that he was saying about IAF sending its best pilots - vis-a-vis to US pilots? (The audio is not pretty clear in that video, so couldn't get certain points raised).

 

[OrionHunter]

'My dick is better than yours' thread!! Oh yeah!

But no one mentioned the most important aspect - It's the man behind the machine that counts. Put an idiot behind the controls in an F-22 and he'll be screwed by a smartass in a Vampire!!

 

[HariPrasad]

There is an excellent comperrision between American jets with Su 30 is here.

F/A-18E/F Super Hornet vs. Sukhoi Flanker

SU 30 beats American Jets in almost all parameters. Loitering capability of MKI impressed American Pilots a lot. I think Composite and weight reduction measures in MKI coupled with more powerful engine and adding stealth features may make this jet the even more deadly.