Can India be cunning?

[amitkriit]

That was poorly articulated on my part. It was a minor issue in terms of India-US relations, as she is one individual, serving in one city. It was not a minor issue in terms of the crime she allegedly committed.

I think this basically comes down to better cultural awareness. If US diplomats were taking actions that conflicted with India's sensitivities over the caste system, Indian outrage would be absolutely justified. Diplomats should be aware of local customs and laws and act accordingly. So too, when an Indian diplomat engages in a form of pseudo-slavery in a country with an ugly history of slavery, with political implications that last until today, it's not unreasonable for Americans to be outraged. Americans were confused over India's outrage, so to speak. I would hardly call that "spouting homilies"--if India wants to engage in what Americans consider slavery, that's its right, but it's unreasonable to expect Americans to look upon it favorably, given our values. We are consistent in this, just look at our revulsion of the pseudo-slavery system in the UAE.

I agree that the US should have handled it quietly--arresting Khobragrade as she was dropping her children off to school was a terrible idea, probably ordered by some politically ambitious bureaucrat (there is something in the US called a "perp walk," which is essentially a photo opportunity for law enforcement to show the media that justice is being executed; this custom probably played a part).

Anyway, I don't want to stir this pot again. India can risk a diplomatic breach with the US, but I don't think such a move is to its own benefit. I agree with you that Modi's magnanimity in overlooking past slights probably results in a win for all sides.



No country that has economic ambitions will shun a market as large as the US. China's a good economy to have trade relations with, but why not also have trade relations with the US? India's involvement with the Non-Aligned Movement is one of the reasons why economic growth was so poor over its first several decades. Business is business, and trade should be pursued with as many markets as possible.

Just for your information the India consul staff comes from the "Lower Caste". Caste Issues in India are not as serious as the race issues in the US.

Please do not educate us about the American values, a country which has a long history of slavery and racially motivated attacks still continue. A country which did not give voting right to the Black Americans until 60s. Around 40 US embassy staffers and their family members in India left India after they were caught red handed in cases of Tax Theft and VISA fraud. Two US embassy staffers were (Wayne May and Alicia May) kicked out of India after they were caught making racially motivated degrading comments against India and Indians.

Modi is a nationalist and he only cares about the interests of India unlike the previous government which went out of the way to please the western powers. Maintaining good relation with major countries which are important to us (from the perspective of national security and economy) is a part of the current government's foreign policy objectives, but India will not be a part of any particular block. Non-alignment is a thing of past, India today is a much stronger nation now, we know that when we speak the whole world takes notice.

India's immediate priority is to secure her neighbourhood and to put the ailing Indian economy back on track and we have started working on it. The government has declared the mission 2022 and the work has started.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

Even if I accept your point, this is hardly a simple case. The diplomat in question was essentially charged with visa fraud, something it turns out the U.S. embassy was quietly encouraging teachers in a school operated on its premises to do. Along with tax evasion. The nanny case is not as straightforward as it seems; it was , prior to the arrest, something that was winked at and was the case for dozens of countries. The nanny was on a diplomatic visa for that very reason. It is understandable if the U.S. no longer wanted to accept such cases but the fact that they made a point only about this case is not and certainly not in the manner they went about doing it. There is also the spiriting away of the nanny's family using visas normally issued to human trafficking victims out of India(they were Indian citizens who were not on American soil, unlike the nanny) and the mentioning of the reason by the NY D.A. as protecting them from the Judicial system in India (thereby questioning the Judiciary in India) was hardly about to go unanswered no matter how much people appreciated close ties with the U.S. If the government had not acted, the Judiciary would & as a case with the Italian ambassador showed, Indian appellate courts can be very unforgiving about what they see as contempt. Had India not expelled the American diplomat, the courts might have kept him in jail for a very long time. That wouldn't have been good for India-US relations, would it?

What can I say? The US screwed that case up. That said, does it help India to close the door on relations with the US over this? The US didn't break off relations with China after a far worse case, the Hainan Island incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia because it wasn't in our strategic interests. Mistakes happen. It's important to keep them in perspective.

Here the issue is not that of just an individual .... that individual was after all representative of GOI .

She was arrested and treated in very peculiar manner .

This incident happened with top indian delegation was on visit to US for crucial dialogue .

The arrest of Indian official was premeditated as the family of concerned maid was whisked away just days before the arrest ...

and while all this was happening American establishment did not even have 'courtesy' to inform what was happening to Indian delegation .

Americans are hypocrite to have two sets of laws ..one for others and one for itself .

If America is so concerned and conscious about slavery ..why did US state department saved its top diplomat in Japan in exactly similar case of slavery , visa fraud , abuse of philipino maid in Japan ?

why did it arm twist Japan to let go its diplomat under pretext of diplomatic immunity ???

Americans are the worst hypocrites in the world !!!

so save your advise on conduct of bilateral relations to yourself !

We'll see what happens under Modi's administration.

This might interest, probably you will be able to understand the outrage in India over the issue.

Thanks for this, but I'll have to try and watch that some other time. Do you have a transcript, or can you summarize? 44 minutes is a big block of time to dedicate for this.

Just for your information the India consul staff comes from the "Lower Caste". Caste Issues in India are not as serious as the race issues in the US.

Please do not educate us about the American values, a country which has a long history of slavery and racially motivated attacks still continue. A country which did not give voting right to the Black Americans until 60s. Around 40 US embassy staffers and their family members in India left India after they were caught red handed in cases of Tax Theft and VISA fraud. Two US embassy staffers were (Wayne May and Alicia May) kicked out of India after they were caught making racially motivated degrading comments against India and Indians.

Modi is a nationalist and he only cares about the interests of India unlike the previous government which went out of the way to please the western powers. Maintaining good relation with major countries which are important to us (from the perspective of national security and economy) is a part of the current government's foreign policy objectives, but India will not be a part of any particular block. Non-alignment is a thing of past, India today is a much stronger nation now, we know that when we speak the whole world takes notice.

India's immediate priority is to secure her neighbourhood and to put the ailing Indian economy back on track and we have started working on it. The government has declared the mission 2022 and the work has started.

I am not going to defend criminal actions by corrupt State Department employees abroad. As far as I'm concerned, they should be in jail, either in India or the US. I will say that racial sensitivities in the US are different than they are in India, given the multi-ethnic composition of the US population. The US has tried very hard to move beyond the dark stain of slavery, which is why the actions of law enforcement in this case may seem disproportionately harsh to you.

It's good to hear that India will not be a part of any anti-American bloc. I think growing relations between our two countries will help both of us.

 

[Bang Galore]

What can I say? The US screwed that case up. That said, does it help India to close the door on relations with the US over this? The US didn't break off relations with China after a far worse case, the Hainan Island incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia because it wasn't in our strategic interests. Mistakes happen. It's important to keep them in perspective.

The whole thing was a mess but a mess best forgotten I don't think anyone expected relations between India & the U.S. to be irreparably damaged over this but I guess the reaction when a "friend" treats you badly has an element of betrayal written into it. Hence the strong reaction.

 

[amitkriit]

The whole thing was a mess but a mess best forgotten I don't think anyone expected relations between India & the U.S. to be irreparably damaged over this but I guess the reaction when a "friend" treats you badly has an element of betrayal written into it. Hence the strong reaction.

Relation between US and India had started to deteriorate much before the Khobragade case. That is why we started calling each other "Natural Partners" instead of "Natural Allies".

I don't think there was any emotional angle. General consensus among the foreign policy experts is that the US decided to teach India a lesson after India refused to be guided by the US on the issues of Iran, Bangladesh and China. India was also digging deeper into the "Chittagong Arms drop case" in which there was a direct involvement of few US diplomats stationed in Bangladesh. Also look at the timing of detention of a US-registered weapons ship by the Indian Coast Guard. The US state department was pursuing Hillary Clinton's policy of humiliating the big nations which refused to tread the US line using Cultural, Moral and Legal issues (e.g. Human Rights issues).

The decision to arrest Khobragade was taken by the US state department, the arrest was pre-planned and the arrest was made just after the visiting Indian Foreign Secretary left the US soil. The US was expecting a meek response from the Indian government, but a election-bound Indian government had got other plans. Even the removal of the security barricades outside the US embassy was a quid-pro-quo. India has already declared that all international engagements will be strictly be on the basis of the principle of reciprocity.

 

[Indo-guy]

What can I say? The US screwed that case up. That said, does it help India to close the door on relations with the US over this? The US didn't break off relations with China after a far worse case, the Hainan Island incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia because it wasn't in our strategic interests. Mistakes happen. It's important to keep them in perspective.

When did India close the door on relations with US ?

We did not break off relations with US . But it was important for India to convey that such kind of humiliations will not be taken casually . Yes mistakes / blunders deliberate or otherwise . and they have been taken in proper context it needs to be .

India is one country which has always tried its best to maintain friendly relations with all countries and have walked extra mile to do so .

India will watch behavior of US administration very closely in coming years and will conduct its relations in strictly reciprocal manner. Expulsion of American diplomat who was involved in whisking away of maid's family in exchange of Indian diplomat's expulsion from US is a precise example of that policy .

Thanks for your understanding .

 

[IND151]

I applaud your patriotism, but yours is a very short-sighted attitude. These issues are usually handled quietly, and behind the scenes. India isn't the only player in the region, and if it deprives itself of the option of friendship with the US over the decidedly unpalatable Khobragade, don't assume that other regional powers will not exploit this.

To put it explicitly, don't assume that current tensions between China and the US will last forever, and if India walks away from the US out of spite over such a minor issue (yes, minor), it only hurts India when India needs FDI.

I believe there is more than whats meets the eye, in this Kobragade saga.

 

[axisofevil]

Just for your information the India consul staff comes from the "Lower Caste". Caste Issues in India are not as serious as the race issues in the US.

Please do not educate us about the American values, a country which has a long history of slavery and racially motivated attacks still continue. A country which did not give voting right to the Black Americans until 60s. Around 40 US embassy staffers and their family members in India left India after they were caught red handed in cases of Tax Theft and VISA fraud. Two US embassy staffers were (Wayne May and Alicia May) kicked out of India after they were caught making racially motivated degrading comments against India and Indians.

Modi is a nationalist and he only cares about the interests of India unlike the previous government which went out of the way to please the western powers. Maintaining good relation with major countries which are important to us (from the perspective of national security and economy) is a part of the current government's foreign policy objectives, but India will not be a part of any particular block. Non-alignment is a thing of past, India today is a much stronger nation now, we know that when we speak the whole world takes notice.

India's immediate priority is to secure her neighbourhood and to put the ailing Indian economy back on track and we have started working on it. The government has declared the mission 2022 and the work has started.

Whoa.....wait a minute. Did you ever take a minute to think why India pursued better relations with the US? Seems you have an agenda here against the US? Whats your angle? The US is very important even you wish it wasn't so. Get used to it. India will have to make tough decisions.....sooner or later.



You tend to overlook how other badly other countries treat our ppl as well.



PS As for caste, its still a huge issue in India. I don't know who you are trying to kid. In fact, it has been an issue for over 1,000yrs if not more. Is it getting better today? Of course, but there is still room for improvment.


The US still has issues with race as well. Is it better? Of course and there is still room for improvement.

 

[amitkriit]

Whoa.....wait a minute. Did you ever take a minute to think why India pursued better relations with the US? Seems you have an agenda here against the US? Whats your angle? The US is very important even you wish it wasn't so. Get used to it. India will have to make tough decisions.....sooner or later.



You tend to overlook how other badly other countries treat our ppl as well.



PS As for caste, its still a huge issue in India. I don't know who you are trying to kid. In fact, it has been an issue for over 1,000yrs if not more. Is it getting better today? Of course, but there is still room for improvment.


The US still has issues with race as well. Is it better? Of course and there is still room for improvement.

I have an agenda in favour of my country that is India (Bharat).

 

[axisofevil]

I have an agenda in favour of my country that is India (Bharat).

Yeah but your focus is clearly only against the US. Reading your posts, it makes sense why. Anyway,were you referring to the Chittagong Arms drop case in 1995 or
2004 Chittagong arms haul case ?




2004 Chittagong arms haul case exposes many terror links - Economic Times







You don't think China with Pakistan has any role in this?

 

[amitkriit]

Yeah but your focus is clearly only against the US. Reading your posts, it makes sense why. Anyway,were you referring to the Chittagong Arms drop case in 1995 or
2004 Chittagong arms haul case ?




2004 Chittagong arms haul case exposes many terror links - Economic Times

2004. Sheikh Haseena-led Bangladesh brought this case to a logical conclusion. And, my focus is only in favour of India. US is an imperial force, a remnant of the British Empire. No other country has bled us more than the US (directly and indirectly). Please answer the following questions:
A. Which country has tactically supported Pakistan through conventional and Nuclear weaponisation?
B. Which countries provided tactical support, finance and weapons to the NE insurgent groups?
C. Which countries stoked fire in Punjab (Khalistan Movement)?
D. Which country funded Taliban and Al-Qaeda in the beginning?
E. Which country tried to stop us from procuring advanced technologies for Space and other applications?
F. China was in which camp during the cold war?
G. Which country tried to acquire a Naval Base close to our southern tip (Sri Lanka)?
I. Which country threatened us with Nukes in 1971?
J. Which countries don't want us to be in the UNSC?
K. WHich country stoked fire in Kundankulam Nuclear Power Plant recently?
L. Which countries decided to look the other way while Indians were being killed by the Pakistan supported terror groups?

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

When did India close the door on relations with US ?

We did not break off relations with US . But it was important for India to convey that such kind of humiliations will not be taken casually . Yes mistakes / blunders deliberate or otherwise . and they have been taken in proper context it needs to be .

India is one country which has always tried its best to maintain friendly relations with all countries and have walked extra mile to do so .

India will watch behavior of US administration very closely in coming years and will conduct its relations in strictly reciprocal manner. Expulsion of American diplomat who was involved in whisking away of maid's family in exchange of Indian diplomat's expulsion from US is a precise example of that policy .

Thanks for your understanding .

I really didn't intend to beat this dead horse, and would rather let it die a silent death. I think the treatment of Khobragrade was sloppy, we should have just expelled her. That said, India retaliating by removing barriers around our embassy and pulling back security measures was a disproportionate response, in my opinion. India's embassy in the US is much safer than the US embassy in India (or for that matter, the US embassy almost anywhere outside of the west), and I think that kind of over-the-top response could have been damaging. Arresting a diplomat is one thing, but putting diplomats' lives in danger is something else entirely.

 

[axisofevil]

2004. Sheikh Haseena-led Bangladesh brought this case to a logical conclusion. And, my focus is only in favour of India. US is an imperial force, a remnant of the British Empire. No other country has bled us more than the US (directly and indirectly). Please answer the following questions:
A. Which country has tactically supported Pakistan through conventional and Nuclear weaponisation?
B. Which countries provided tactical support, finance and weapons to the NE insurgent groups?
C. Which countries stoked fire in Punjab (Khalistan Movement)?
D. Which country funded Taliban and Al-Qaeda in the beginning?
E. Which country tried to stop us from procuring advanced technologies for Space and other applications?
F. China was in which camp during the cold war?
G. Which country tried to acquire a Naval Base close to our southern tip (Sri Lanka)?
I. Which country threatened us with Nukes in 1971?
J. Which countries don't want us to be in the UNSC?
K. WHich country stoked fire in Kundankulam Nuclear Power Plant recently?
L. Which countries decided to look the other way while Indians were being killed by the Pakistan supported terror groups?

Hasina may not be correct. China is actively courting them. Pakistan has a closer relationship with China than US post 9/11.


The British bled us more than anyone else.

A. The US coz we were with the USSR.
B. China, Pakistan and possibly US (not sure)
C. Pakistan
D. US to counter Russia in Afghanistan
E. The US and other European countries due to sanctions
F. China was on the US side after being courted by the US via Pakistan
G. China and the US
H. Hearsay
J. China, if I recall recently the US is fine with it now. China was backstabbing us behind hte scenes. But why should we get a sit? We are not developed yet and have miles to go. We can even make a decison on tough choices.
K. Again, hearsay regarding NGO's. Could be an angle to qwell green activists to prevent any slowdown of development. But if the US is involved, then think why so?
L. EVERYONE

 

[Indo-guy]

I really didn't intend to beat this dead horse, and would rather let it die a silent death. I think the treatment of Khobragrade was sloppy, we should have just expelled her. That said, India retaliating by removing barriers around our embassy and pulling back security measures was a disproportionate response, in my opinion. India's embassy in the US is much safer than the US embassy in India (or for that matter, the US embassy almost anywhere outside of the west), and I think that kind of over-the-top response could have been damaging. Arresting a diplomat is one thing, but putting diplomats' lives in danger is something else entirely.

This is your perception !
India did nothing that will endanger security of US embassy .

The illegally placed barriers were removed the same way, barriers near Indian embassy in US were removed . In lieu of this India did enhance the manpower to guard the US embassy.

You may see this as beating of dead horse ...it is however question of policy and principle for India.

India has demonstrated that it will follow principles of reciprocity in dealing with US .

It is for this reason spouses of US diplomats which were working illegally ( without work visas) were asked to leave .


Do not expect exceptions to yourself ...however exceptional you may consider to yourself .


and this is what India proved by expelling American diplomat that of equal rank of Devyani khobragade !!!

 

[amitkriit]

Hasina may not be correct. China is actively courting them. Pakistan has a closer relationship with China than US post 9/11.


The British bled us more than anyone else.

A. The US coz we were with the USSR.
B. China, Pakistan and possibly US (not sure)
C. Pakistan
D. US to counter Russia in Afghanistan
E. The US and other European countries due to sanctions
F. China was on the US side after being courted by the US via Pakistan
G. China and the US
H. Hearsay
J. China, if I recall recently the US is fine with it now. China was backstabbing us behind hte scenes. But why should we get a sit? We are not developed yet and have miles to go. We can even make a decison on tough choices.
K. Again, hearsay regarding NGO's. Could be an angle to qwell green activists to prevent any slowdown of development. But if the US is involved, then think why so?
L. EVERYONE

Let be very clear, I am not sympathetic towards the interests of the US. I don't care why the US did something against India. Whatever be the reason, the US destabilized whole South Asia and tried to destabilize India. Wherever you have written not-sure for the US, the US was the major player (like in North East states, in association with the UK (took care of the finance part); Punjab in association with Pakistan).

That article you used as reference for the 2004 arms haul doesn't show the real picture. Weapons were sourced through Dubai, facilitated by a Pakistani Company whose owner died mysterious due to hear attack. The US was actively involved during the operation and tried to shield two DGFI agents after the Indian agencies killed the operation.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

This is your perception !
India did nothing that will endanger security of US embassy .

The illegally placed barriers were removed the same way barriers near Indian embassy in US were removed . In lieu of this India did enhance the manpower to guard the US security .

You may seem as beating of dead horse ...it is however question of policy and principle for India.

India has demonstrated that it will follow principles of reciprocity in dealing with US .

It is for this reason spouses of US diplomats which were working illegally ( without work visas) were asked to leave .


Do not expect exceptions to yourself ...however exceptional you may consider to yourself .


and this is what India proved by expelling American diplomat that of equal rank of Devyani khobragade !!!

Understood, let's see how the relationship develops.