Can India be cunning?

[Chinese-Dragon]

Chanakya / Sun Tzu - both were at a time when we were pretty much a homogenous history. We did not have westerners cutting up our countries and play havoc with aliances, conniving treaties, debaucheries, et al. When the colonialists came into a loosely referred "Hindoostan" or "Indie", we were already bitten apart by the princely states, confedaracies, sultanates and protectorates. What Chanakya taught was lost upon many Indians for almost 2-3 centuries. In China's case, I would imagine something similar happened till, the resurgence of Sun Tzu's strategies were made into an international best seller back in the early 90s .

And that's the punishment we received for forgetting past wisdom, and letting ourselves get divided by foreign powers.

The world is an unforgiving place. If we become weak then we will suffer.

 

[tomato]

I believe creation of Bangladesh was one of the most cunning move made by India....at that time, then Indira leadership did it purposely. We do have that potential, but it all depends if we are willing to do it. History tells majority of our leadership believes in "dove" politics and being a good boy in this insane world.

 

[Mike_Brando]

India showed that it still has a ways to go as far as being considered "cunning" on the world stage, with the extreme reactions to the arrest of an embassy worker late last year.

Unfortunately I feel that will have lasting effects on a relationship that was otherwise positive and growing.

Just answer this simple question,how would you or for that matter your own country react if we do the same thing with an American deputy high commissioner here in India!No self respecting country would tolerate this kind of humiliation that too from a country whom we generally consider as our "friend"!!!

 

[amitkriit]

Just answer this simple question,how would you or for that matter your own country react if we do the same thing with an American deputy high commissioner here in India!No self respecting country would tolerate this kind of humiliation that too from a country whom we generally consider as our "friend"!!!

Americans are complaining because they could not see it coming and it hit them hard where it hurt most, their image of the global policeman.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

Americans are complaining because they could not see it coming and it hit them hard where it hurt most, their image of the global policeman.

I applaud your patriotism, but yours is a very short-sighted attitude. These issues are usually handled quietly, and behind the scenes. India isn't the only player in the region, and if it deprives itself of the option of friendship with the US over the decidedly unpalatable Khobragade, don't assume that other regional powers will not exploit this.

To put it explicitly, don't assume that current tensions between China and the US will last forever, and if India walks away from the US out of spite over such a minor issue (yes, minor), it only hurts India when India needs FDI.

 

[anonymus]

Alienating friends, particularly powerful friends, over relatively minor disagreements, is neither selfish nor arrogant.

If you are talking about US, there is no alienation except in some media circles, Indian PM would be holding trilateral conference with Japan and US in September and would visit US next year.

 

[OCguy]

Just answer this simple question,how would you or for that matter your own country react if we do the same thing with an American deputy high commissioner here in India!No self respecting country would tolerate this kind of humiliation that too from a country whom we generally consider as our "friend"!!!

If you arrested someone and had evidence they committed the crime?

There are already examples of it, including recently with an Agent in Pakistan caught with ammo.

Our citizens don't freak out. We don't risk the lives of embassy personnel we host by removing security barriers. We don't riot and burn Pakistani restaurants.

We understand and are confident enough the backdoor channels will take care of it. These incidents start with someone breaking the law in the eyes of a prosecuting body, keep in mind.

 

[amitkriit]

I applaud your patriotism, but yours is a very short-sighted attitude. These issues are usually handled quietly, and behind the scenes. India isn't the only player in the region, and if it deprives itself of the option of friendship with the US over the decidedly unpalatable Khobragade, don't assume that other regional powers will not exploit this.

To put it explicitly, don't assume that current tensions between China and the US will last forever, and if India walks away from the US out of spite over such a minor issue (yes, minor), it only hurts India when India needs FDI.

We never assumed that tension between US and China will last forever. That is why We refused to be guided by the US on how to deal with China. We know that today China is being projected as the "enemy no 1" by the western media, tomorrow we might be the ones occupying this spot.

To put it explicitly, we started preparing for such eventuality a long time ago. The US is not the only country from where we expect to receive the FDI. In fact we are more positive about business relations with the BRICS nations and Japan. Why bother about a power across the seven oceans when a huge "Economic Powerhouse" is sitting just across the border? China is soon going to become the largest economy in the world isn't it?

 

[Mike_Brando]

If you arrested someone and had evidence they committed the crime?

There are already examples of it, including recently with an Agent in Pakistan caught with ammo.

Our citizens don't freak out. We don't risk the lives of embassy personnel we host by removing security barriers. We don't riot and burn Pakistani restaurants.

We understand and are confident enough the backdoor channels will take care of it. These incidents start with someone breaking the law in the eyes of a prosecuting body, keep in mind.

So according to you,your Deputy High Commissioner didn't break the local laws when he quietly smuggled out the entire family of the maid including her husband who was accused in a criminal case and the legal proceedings were going on at that time in our court!Now let us come to that barrier incident.The barriers weren't in front of your embassy,it were actually put up by the security forces to block a part of the street which leads to the American embassy.Why should your country be granted such undue privileges when no other forein embassy gets this kind of "special" privilege from our Govt.!!

 

[Bang Galore]

I applaud your patriotism, but yours is a very short-sighted attitude. These issues are usually handled quietly, and behind the scenes. India isn't the only player in the region, and if it deprives itself of the option of friendship with the US over the decidedly unpalatable Khobragade, don't assume that other regional powers will not exploit this.

To put it explicitly, don't assume that current tensions between China and the US will last forever, and if India walks away from the US out of spite over such a minor issue (yes, minor), it only hurts India when India needs FDI.

That is exactly the point. If the U.S. had an issue with some diplomat of India, it should have been dealt with quietly. That didn't happen & the response stung (even if a minor loss of face). Same with the case of Modi's visa, it was the U.S.'s doing. In any case, Modi seems to be very dispassionate about this issue, which is probably good for all concerned.

As for the issue being minor, so was the original issue. The U.S. can't expect to react to a "minor" issue & then spout homilies when retaliated against.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

That is exactly the point. If the U.S. had an issue with some diplomat of India, it should have been dealt with quietly. That didn't happen & the response stung (even if a minor loss of face). Same with the case of Modi's visa, it was the U.S.'s doing. In any case, Modi seems to be very dispassionate about this issue, which is probably good for all concerned.

As for the issue being minor, so was the original issue. The U.S. can't expect to react to a "minor" issue & then spout homilies when retaliated against.

That was poorly articulated on my part. It was a minor issue in terms of India-US relations, as she is one individual, serving in one city. It was not a minor issue in terms of the crime she allegedly committed.

I think this basically comes down to better cultural awareness. If US diplomats were taking actions that conflicted with India's sensitivities over the caste system, Indian outrage would be absolutely justified. Diplomats should be aware of local customs and laws and act accordingly. So too, when an Indian diplomat engages in a form of pseudo-slavery in a country with an ugly history of slavery, with political implications that last until today, it's not unreasonable for Americans to be outraged. Americans were confused over India's outrage, so to speak. I would hardly call that "spouting homilies"--if India wants to engage in what Americans consider slavery, that's its right, but it's unreasonable to expect Americans to look upon it favorably, given our values. We are consistent in this, just look at our revulsion of the pseudo-slavery system in the UAE.

I agree that the US should have handled it quietly--arresting Khobragrade as she was dropping her children off to school was a terrible idea, probably ordered by some politically ambitious bureaucrat (there is something in the US called a "perp walk," which is essentially a photo opportunity for law enforcement to show the media that justice is being executed; this custom probably played a part).

Anyway, I don't want to stir this pot again. India can risk a diplomatic breach with the US, but I don't think such a move is to its own benefit. I agree with you that Modi's magnanimity in overlooking past slights probably results in a win for all sides.

We never assumed that tension between US and China will last forever. That is why We refused to be guided by the US on how to deal with China. We know that today China is being projected as the "enemy no 1" by the western media, tomorrow we might be the ones occupying this spot.

To put it explicitly, we started preparing for such eventuality a long time ago. The US is not the only country from where we expect to receive the FDI. In fact we are more positive about business relations with the BRICS nations and Japan. Why bother about a power across the seven oceans when a huge "Economic Powerhouse" is sitting just across the border? China is soon going to become the largest economy in the world isn't it?

No country that has economic ambitions will shun a market as large as the US. China's a good economy to have trade relations with, but why not also have trade relations with the US? India's involvement with the Non-Aligned Movement is one of the reasons why economic growth was so poor over its first several decades. Business is business, and trade should be pursued with as many markets as possible.

 

[Bang Galore]

T So too, when an Indian diplomat engages in a form of pseudo-slavery in a country with an ugly history of slavery, with political implications that last until today, it's not unreasonable for Americans to be outraged. Americans were confused over India's outrage, so to speak. I would hardly call that "spouting homilies"--if India wants to engage in what Americans consider slavery, that's its right, but it's unreasonable to expect Americans to look upon it favorably, given our values. We are consistent in this, just look at our revulsion of the pseudo-slavery system in the UAE.

Even if I accept your point, this is hardly a simple case. The diplomat in question was essentially charged with visa fraud, something it turns out the U.S. embassy was quietly encouraging teachers in a school operated on its premises to do. Along with tax evasion. The nanny case is not as straightforward as it seems; it was , prior to the arrest, something that was winked at and was the case for dozens of countries. The nanny was on a diplomatic visa for that very reason. It is understandable if the U.S. no longer wanted to accept such cases but the fact that they made a point only about this case is not and certainly not in the manner they went about doing it. There is also the spiriting away of the nanny's family using visas normally issued to human trafficking victims out of India(they were Indian citizens who were not on American soil, unlike the nanny) and the mentioning of the reason by the NY D.A. as protecting them from the Judicial system in India (thereby questioning the Judiciary in India) was hardly about to go unanswered no matter how much people appreciated close ties with the U.S. If the government had not acted, the Judiciary would & as a case with the Italian ambassador showed, Indian appellate courts can be very unforgiving about what they see as contempt. Had India not expelled the American diplomat, the courts might have kept him in jail for a very long time. That wouldn't have been good for India-US relations, would it?

 

[Indo-guy]

That was poorly articulated on my part. It was a minor issue in terms of India-US relations, as she is one individual, serving in one city. It was not a minor issue in terms of the crime she allegedly committed.

I think this basically comes down to better cultural awareness. If US diplomats were taking actions that conflicted with India's sensitivities over the caste system, Indian outrage would be absolutely justified. Diplomats should be aware of local customs and laws and act accordingly. So too, when an Indian diplomat engages in a form of pseudo-slavery in a country with an ugly history of slavery, with political implications that last until today, it's not unreasonable for Americans to be outraged. Americans were confused over India's outrage, so to speak. I would hardly call that "spouting homilies"--if India wants to engage in what Americans consider slavery, that's its right, but it's unreasonable to expect Americans to look upon it favorably, given our values. We are consistent in this, just look at our revulsion of the pseudo-slavery system in the UAE.

I agree that the US should have handled it quietly--arresting Khobragrade as she was dropping her children off to school was a terrible idea, probably ordered by some politically ambitious bureaucrat (there is something in the US called a "perp walk," which is essentially a photo opportunity for law enforcement to show the media that justice is being executed; this custom probably played a part).

Anyway, I don't want to stir this pot again. India can risk a diplomatic breach with the US, but I don't think such a move is to its own benefit. I agree with you that Modi's magnanimity in overlooking past slights probably results in a win for all sides.



No country that has economic ambitions will shun a market as large as the US. China's a good economy to have trade relations with, but why not also have trade relations with the US? India's involvement with the Non-Aligned Movement is one of the reasons why economic growth was so poor over its first several decades. Business is business, and trade should be pursued with as many markets as possible.

Here the issue is not that of just an individual .... that individual was after all representative of GOI .

She was arrested and treated in very peculiar manner .

This incident happened with top indian delegation was on visit to US for crucial dialogue .

The arrest of Indian official was premeditated as the family of concerned maid was whisked away just days before the arrest ...

and while all this was happening American establishment did not even have 'courtesy' to inform what was happening to Indian delegation .

Americans are hypocrite to have two sets of laws ..one for others and one for itself .

If America is so concerned and conscious about slavery ..why did US state department saved its top diplomat in Japan in exactly similar case of slavery , visa fraud , abuse of philipino maid in Japan ?

why did it arm twist Japan to let go its diplomat under pretext of diplomatic immunity ???

Americans are the worst hypocrites in the world !!!

so save your advise on conduct of bilateral relations to yourself !

 

[Screambowl]

India ke ghar ghar mein chanakya hai

 

[Lonely Hermit]

That was poorly articulated on my part. It was a minor issue in terms of India-US relations, as she is one individual, serving in one city. It was not a minor issue in terms of the crime she allegedly committed.

I think this basically comes down to better cultural awareness. If US diplomats were taking actions that conflicted with India's sensitivities over the caste system, Indian outrage would be absolutely justified. Diplomats should be aware of local customs and laws and act accordingly. So too, when an Indian diplomat engages in a form of pseudo-slavery in a country with an ugly history of slavery, with political implications that last until today, it's not unreasonable for Americans to be outraged. Americans were confused over India's outrage, so to speak. I would hardly call that "spouting homilies"--if India wants to engage in what Americans consider slavery, that's its right, but it's unreasonable to expect Americans to look upon it favorably, given our values. We are consistent in this, just look at our revulsion of the pseudo-slavery system in the UAE.

I agree that the US should have handled it quietly--arresting Khobragrade as she was dropping her children off to school was a terrible idea, probably ordered by some politically ambitious bureaucrat (there is something in the US called a "perp walk," which is essentially a photo opportunity for law enforcement to show the media that justice is being executed; this custom probably played a part).

Anyway, I don't want to stir this pot again. India can risk a diplomatic breach with the US, but I don't think such a move is to its own benefit. I agree with you that Modi's magnanimity in overlooking past slights probably results in a win for all sides.



No country that has economic ambitions will shun a market as large as the US. China's a good economy to have trade relations with, but why not also have trade relations with the US? India's involvement with the Non-Aligned Movement is one of the reasons why economic growth was so poor over its first several decades. Business is business, and trade should be pursued with as many markets as possible.

This might interest, probably you will be able to understand the outrage in India over the issue.