Can China break the military aircraft engine bottleneck?

[ChineseTiger1986]

Well "conquering" the Mars seems to be rather over the top. What India has done is send an orbiter. Also, if you didn't know this, China hasn't send a probe to Mars. They sent an orbiter over Russian rocket, and with a joint collaboration with Russia, but the Chinese contribution was only to provide an orbiter, like a satellite, to the Russians and put it up in space.

Second, I agree with you that Chinese jet engine from what I have read and heard is far from maturing. There have been positive signs, but something as big as a jet engine, mass produced, matured, used for military and general aviation will hard not to observe. So yes, Chinese engines are not yet matured, but I disagree with the time lag some people give. Chinese are known to catch up fast!

Can India produce a WS-10 level jet engine in the next decade? The answer is a big no.

India is too weak in its industrial foundation compared to China, it always needs too much babysitting from Russia and the West.

You guys will never become as independent as China who has been fully independent since 50 years, we don't rely on anybody but ourselves.

 

[Donatello]

China will break this bottlencek, but it will take some years, perhaps a whole decade.

Developing a High Quality Turbofan is no joke, if China can do so, it will open many doors for China just like GSLV Mk II D 5 opened for India.

Sorry, but that's not a apples to apples there....

Building an expendable or limited use rocket is easier than building a high-performance turbofan that has to see the rigors of flight change in an instant, and be reused again. It's the common element for all air-breathing engines.
China already has built numerous turbofans, the problem is the reliability. So while you might need rockets for a timed, limited use in space, you need turbofan engines in hundreds to power your fleet, now if you have a dual engine, long range aircraft like the J-11/J-15s, then you got double the engines that fail. Engine failure there would mean your war/peace is at stake. Not the same with space rockets. At most you lose a billion USD or so worth of equipment.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Can India produce a WS-10 level jet engine in the next decade? The answer is a big no.

India is too weak in its industrial foundation compared to China, it always needs too much babysitting from Russia and the West.

You guys will never become as independent as China who has been fully independent since 50 years, we don't rely on anybody but ourselves.

Not quite true, you have tried to acquire as much as was available to you. I don't think acquiring stuff necessarily negates building by oneself. After all even China used Russian engines for quite a while, before developing her own.

Finally, I agree that India is weak compared to China, but progress can be made quickly with right leadership and policies. China was nowhere in the global stage 20 years before.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Not quite true, you have tried to acquire as much as was available to you. I don't think acquiring stuff necessarily negates building by oneself. After all even China used Russian engines for quite a while, before developing her own.

Finally, I agree that India is weak compared to China, but progress can be made quickly with right leadership and policies. China was nowhere in the global stage 20 years before.

Russia never babysits China like it has done to India.

We extensively used AL-31F back in the 1990s, it is true, but Russia was also desperate during that time, and they needed our purchase to keep their business running.

Look at the Type 052D vs Kolkata for example, the Type 052D got fully indigenous components with the Chinese technology, while Kolkata is full of foreign technology.

Because China is strong and mature to build its technological ecosystem, while India has not, and it can never achieve like China has done.

some of the chinese members are too sensitive to inferiority ego..

Nope, we have already crossed the barrier, and say to a country who still needs to import the bullet.

BTW, you are an Indian from Malaysia right? I see nothing but only anti-China topics made by you.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

He is a Chinese. No Indian guy talks about Mahjong :p

It is you who are so sensitive that any thing that goes against your set ideas, is considered anti-China.
Learn to be a bit more inclusive, it helps to build a society.

Who gives a fck about what he is?

You people are too weak to taunt China for now.

About the jet engine, it is USA>China>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>India.

First, let's sort out the problems in your Kaveri engine first, then we can talk about how India gonna catch up.

Sorry, but that's not a apples to apples there....

Building an expendable or limited use rocket is easier than building a high-performance turbofan that has to see the rigors of flight change in an instant, and be reused again. It's the common element for all air-breathing engines.
China already has built numerous turbofans, the problem is the reliability. So while you might need rockets for a timed, limited use in space, you need turbofan engines in hundreds to power your fleet, now if you have a dual engine, long range aircraft like the J-11/J-15s, then you got double the engines that fail. Engine failure there would mean your war/peace is at stake. Not the same with space rockets. At most you lose a billion USD or so worth of equipment.

With almost 10 years since the induction of WS-10, no major disaster happening, but it is only a quantity matter.

We need more skillful workers in the jet engine assembly factory.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

Who gives a fck about what he is?

You people are too weak to taunt China for now.

About the jet engine, it is USA>China>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>India.

First, let's sort out the problems in your Kaveri engine first, then we can talk about how India gonna catch up.



With almost 10 years since the induction of WS-10, no major disaster happening, but it is only a quantity matter.

We need more skillful workers in the jet engine assembly factory.

Induction and continuos usage in all plane is different things , Inducted but only remained in testing stage. after A/B/C / D comes but didn't come into serial production.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Who gives a fck about what he is?

You people are too weak to taunt China for now.

About the jet engine, it is USA>China>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>India.

First, let's sort out the problems in your Kaveri engine first, then we can talk about how India gonna catch up.



With almost 10 years since the induction of WS-10, no major disaster happening, but it is only a quantity matter.

We need more skillful workers in the jet engine assembly factory.

Firstly, have the debate civil, don't use the f word.
Second, yes India is not in the engine game yet. But that's what I'm saying, how much in the engine game was China 2 decades back? Similar to India, with a program in namesworth, no tangible result etc.

I would say that the US is 2 decades ahead of China at the least. So that, by time makes, US >> China >> India.

Disasters happen with increased deployment and operations. It is simple probability. If the chance of failure of an engine is, say 0.001 per hour of flying. Then one engine will fail for once in say a 1000 hours. And I am sure they are more reliable than that.

Also, how has WS 10 been deployed for 10 years?

Operating a heavily scaled down version is not deployment. This is what I get from WIkipedia:

The WS-10 project had its roots in the earlier WS-6 turbofan, which was abandoned at the start of the 1980s.[6] Development of the WS-10 started in 1987 by Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute (606 Institute) of the China Aviation Industry Corporation and was based upon the core of CFM International CFM56 engines imported from the United States in 1982. This core itself deriving from the F16's GE F101 engines.[7] The original WS-10 was found to lack the performance needed for modern jet-powered fighters and was never used to power an aircraft. The design was modified and an improved version, the WS-10A, was tested on a prototype Shenyang J-11 fighter in 2002.[8]

In 2005 it was reported that, according to Russian sources familiar with China's WS-10A turbofan development project, WS-10A was being developed to be slightly more powerful than the Saturn/Lyulka AL-31. The sources noted that China was encountering problems with meeting weight reduction goals for the WS-10A's primary and secondary compressors and had problems meeting thrust requirements. It was also stated that Chinese thrust vectoring technology was under development for the WS-10A.[9] The Chinese media also reported in 2005 that the WS-10A had completed 4 months endurance testing and the engine was later certified for production in 2006. WS-10 reached its fully design performance on 2004. [10]

According to an interview publicised in January 2007 with J-10 pilot Li Cunbao (李存宝), the J-10 had not yet been equipped with the domestic WS-10 engine, because although the WS-10 could match the performance of its Russian counterpart (the AL-31), there was a serious drawback; the WS-10 took longer to "spool up", i.e. there was a delay in reaching the same thrust output as the Russian engine.

WS-10A is reported to have 13,200 kilograms (29,100 lb) of thrust and a 7.5:1 thrust-to-weight ratio, making it comparable to the AL-31F turbofan. The WS-10A was first displayed in public at the 2008 Zhuhai Air Show.[11] The WS-10A design consists of a 7-stage high pressure compressor, short annular combustor with air blast atomizer and air film cooling blades. It is the first production turbofan from China to feature single crystal nickel-based turbine blades, which allow higher intake temperatures and greater engine thrust. WS-10A has also been equipped with a FADEC (full authority digital engine control) system. An asymmetric thrust vector control (TVC)nozzle, similar to the TVC nozzle of the Russian AL-31F-TVN engine, has also been reported undergoing testing.

On 2 April 2009, the director of AVIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China) Lin Zuoming (林左鸣), stated that there were problems with the quality control procedures on the WS-10A production line, meaning the Taihang turbofan was still of unsatisfactory quality. He said that solving these problems would be a key step.[12] In addition to poor build quality, the engines suffered from poor reliability, the Chinese engines have been lasting 30 hours at a time vs 400 for the Russian originals.[13] Despite AVIC's issues with quality control, mass production of the WS-10 series engines would contribute significantly in improving Chinese industrial capabilities.[14]

The overall situation had steadily improved by the end of 2009, after which the WS-10A had reportedly proved mature enough to power the J-11B Block 02 aircraft.[15] By late 2013, the improved WS-10A engine has reached a new level of maturity and performance, it powered the J-16 throughout its entire flight test program and now the J-16 is starting to reach IOC and begin small batch production. [16] By early 2014, pictures of J-15S a twin seated variant of Shenyang J-15 naval fighter is spotting using WS-10A engine. This further proves WS-10A engine's maturity level has reached satisfactory level. [17]

Derivatives of the WS-10 are under development, such as a high-bypass turbofan variant for propelling large transport aircraft and marine gas turbine variant for propelling ships. The high-bypass turbofan is called WS-20 which is derived from the WS-10A's core to power the Y-20 strategic transport currently under development by XAC.

A thrust-vectoring variant with higher thrust (135 kilonewtons (30,000 lbf)), called the WS-10B, is ready for combat aircraft installation, while an even further upgrade with higher thrust (155 kilonewtons (35,000 lbf)), designated the WS-10G, is also under testing.

According to the latest reports from Chinese air force the PLAAF, high ranking Chinese air force officers are well satisfied with WS-10A's performance and have ordered Sheng Yang Liming to increase WS-10A engine's production capacity. [18]

Pictures showing J-11B fighters equipped with WS-10A engines performing ground attack have also been made available. [19]

​

Who gives a fck about what he is?

You people are too weak to taunt China for now.

About the jet engine, it is USA>China>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>India.

First, let's sort out the problems in your Kaveri engine first, then we can talk about how India gonna catch up.



With almost 10 years since the induction of WS-10, no major disaster happening, but it is only a quantity matter.

We need more skillful workers in the jet engine assembly factory.

Also, you have a habit of vastly overestimating yourself, which can be lethal, specially when you playing with life, and the future of a whole country.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Firstly, have the debate civil, don't use the f word.
Second, yes India is not in the engine game yet. But that's what I'm saying, how much in the engine game was China 2 decades back? Similar to India, with a program in namesworth, no tangible result etc.

I would say that the US is 2 decades ahead of China at the least. So that, by time makes, US >> China >> India.

Disasters happen with increased deployment and operations. It is simple probability. If the chance of failure of an engine is, say 0.001 per hour of flying. Then one engine will fail for once in say a 1000 hours. And I am sure they are more reliable than that.

Also, how has WS 10 been deployed for 10 years?

Operating a heavily scaled down version is not deployment. This is what I get from WIkipedia:

The WS-10 project had its roots in the earlier WS-6 turbofan, which was abandoned at the start of the 1980s.[6] Development of the WS-10 started in 1987 by Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute (606 Institute) of the China Aviation Industry Corporation and was based upon the core of CFM International CFM56 engines imported from the United States in 1982. This core itself deriving from the F16's GE F101 engines.[7] The original WS-10 was found to lack the performance needed for modern jet-powered fighters and was never used to power an aircraft. The design was modified and an improved version, the WS-10A, was tested on a prototype Shenyang J-11 fighter in 2002.[8]

In 2005 it was reported that, according to Russian sources familiar with China's WS-10A turbofan development project, WS-10A was being developed to be slightly more powerful than the Saturn/Lyulka AL-31. The sources noted that China was encountering problems with meeting weight reduction goals for the WS-10A's primary and secondary compressors and had problems meeting thrust requirements. It was also stated that Chinese thrust vectoring technology was under development for the WS-10A.[9] The Chinese media also reported in 2005 that the WS-10A had completed 4 months endurance testing and the engine was later certified for production in 2006. WS-10 reached its fully design performance on 2004. [10]

According to an interview publicised in January 2007 with J-10 pilot Li Cunbao (李存宝), the J-10 had not yet been equipped with the domestic WS-10 engine, because although the WS-10 could match the performance of its Russian counterpart (the AL-31), there was a serious drawback; the WS-10 took longer to "spool up", i.e. there was a delay in reaching the same thrust output as the Russian engine.

WS-10A is reported to have 13,200 kilograms (29,100 lb) of thrust and a 7.5:1 thrust-to-weight ratio, making it comparable to the AL-31F turbofan. The WS-10A was first displayed in public at the 2008 Zhuhai Air Show.[11] The WS-10A design consists of a 7-stage high pressure compressor, short annular combustor with air blast atomizer and air film cooling blades. It is the first production turbofan from China to feature single crystal nickel-based turbine blades, which allow higher intake temperatures and greater engine thrust. WS-10A has also been equipped with a FADEC (full authority digital engine control) system. An asymmetric thrust vector control (TVC)nozzle, similar to the TVC nozzle of the Russian AL-31F-TVN engine, has also been reported undergoing testing.

On 2 April 2009, the director of AVIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China) Lin Zuoming (林左鸣), stated that there were problems with the quality control procedures on the WS-10A production line, meaning the Taihang turbofan was still of unsatisfactory quality. He said that solving these problems would be a key step.[12] In addition to poor build quality, the engines suffered from poor reliability, the Chinese engines have been lasting 30 hours at a time vs 400 for the Russian originals.[13] Despite AVIC's issues with quality control, mass production of the WS-10 series engines would contribute significantly in improving Chinese industrial capabilities.[14]

The overall situation had steadily improved by the end of 2009, after which the WS-10A had reportedly proved mature enough to power the J-11B Block 02 aircraft.[15] By late 2013, the improved WS-10A engine has reached a new level of maturity and performance, it powered the J-16 throughout its entire flight test program and now the J-16 is starting to reach IOC and begin small batch production. [16] By early 2014, pictures of J-15S a twin seated variant of Shenyang J-15 naval fighter is spotting using WS-10A engine. This further proves WS-10A engine's maturity level has reached satisfactory level. [17]

Derivatives of the WS-10 are under development, such as a high-bypass turbofan variant for propelling large transport aircraft and marine gas turbine variant for propelling ships. The high-bypass turbofan is called WS-20 which is derived from the WS-10A's core to power the Y-20 strategic transport currently under development by XAC.

A thrust-vectoring variant with higher thrust (135 kilonewtons (30,000 lbf)), called the WS-10B, is ready for combat aircraft installation, while an even further upgrade with higher thrust (155 kilonewtons (35,000 lbf)), designated the WS-10G, is also under testing.

According to the latest reports from Chinese air force the PLAAF, high ranking Chinese air force officers are well satisfied with WS-10A's performance and have ordered Sheng Yang Liming to increase WS-10A engine's production capacity. [18]

Pictures showing J-11B fighters equipped with WS-10A engines performing ground attack have also been made available. [19]

​

Nope, it passed all its test on November 2005 which means it was already successful by that time.

China already became the third member who is capable to produce a 12 tons thrust military aircraft engine.

Once the WS-15 is done, our gap with the US will be reduced to less than a decade.

India needs to learn how to walk before it wanna learn how to run.

 

[ArsalanKhan21]

The Engines In China's New F-35 Rip Off Smoke Like A Chimney | The Daily Caller

Tech
The Engines In China’s ‘Stealthy’ New J-35 Smoke Like A Chimney

Giuseppe Macri
Tech Editor
11:39 AM 11/07/2014

Thursday footage of China’s new Shenyang J-31 Falcon Eagle fifth-generation fighter — which copies major design elements from the F-35 and F-22 — conducting a test flight shows one feature of the stealth fighter that could pose a problem for hiding from the enemy.

The video spotted by The Aviationist of the fighter performing some pretty basic maneuvers ahead of a major air defense show in Zhuhai, Guangdong outside of Hong Kong next week shows some rather smokey engines powering the fighter through simple banks and turns — certainly nothing that should merit any strain on the airframe or its engines.

WATCH:

Though the jet features a host of stealthy, radar-evading design elements lifted from Lockheed Martin’s fifth-gen F-35 multi-role Joint Strike Fighter (including the sensor-loaded nose section, trapezoid-shaped wings and dual tails), radar invisibility could prove to be a moot point if the jet’s fifth-gen cousins can spot its smokey engine burn-off trailing across the sky.

The jet is likely still in prototype stage and could see various changes — including to its engines — before rolling out en masse on Chinese tarmacs. If it’s anything like the American cousin it’s trying to copy, it could still be awhile before all bugs are worked out. (RELATED: China’s New Fifth-Generation Fighter Is Unsurprisingly Similar To The F-35)

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Who gives a fck about what he is?

You people are too weak to taunt China for now.

About the jet engine, it is USA>China>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>India.

First, let's sort out the problems in your Kaveri engine first, then we can talk about how India gonna catch up.



With almost 10 years since the induction of WS-10, no major disaster happening, but it is only a quantity matter.

We need more skillful workers in the jet engine assembly factory.

Certain sections of the wiki page to point out.

According to an interview publicised in January 2007 with J-10 pilot Li Cunbao (李存宝), the J-10 had not yet been equipped with the domestic WS-10 engine, because although the WS-10 could match theperformance of its Russian counterpart (the AL-31), there was a serious drawback; the WS-10 took longer to "spool up", i.e. there was a delay in reaching the same thrust output as the Russian engine.


On 2 April 2009, the director of AVIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China) Lin Zuoming (林左鸣), stated that there were problems with the quality control procedures on the WS-10A production line, meaning the Taihang turbofan was still of unsatisfactory quality. He said that solving these problems would be a key step.[12] In addition to poor build quality, the engines suffered from poor reliability, the Chinese engines have been lasting 30 hours at a time vs 400 for the Russian originals.


By late 2013, the improved WS-10A engine has reached a new level of maturity and performance, it powered the J-16 throughout its entire flight test program and now the J-16 is starting to reach IOC and begin small batch production. [16] By early 2014, pictures of J-15S a twin seated variant of Shenyang J-15 naval fighter is spotting using WS-10A engine. This further proves WS-10A engine's maturity level has reached satisfactory level.​

Nope, it passed all its test on November 2005 which means it was already successful by that time.

China already became the third member who is capable to produce a 12 tons thrust military aircraft engine.

Once the WS-15 is done, our gap with the US will be reduced to less than a decade.

India needs to learn how to walk before it wanna learn how to run.

Why are you bringing India to the topic? Didn't I just say that India is exactly in the Chinese phase of 80s, when China started a program, but couldn't produce tangible results.

Also, you can read the article, in 2007 it was not installed on J10, and had many issues. Heck even by 2009, it wasn't undergoing proper mass production. And that is according to the director of AVIC.

I would only count a mature system as a one which has been deployed in greater than 100 aircrafts, and have already been serving satisfactorily for >3 years.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Certain sections of the wiki page to point out.

According to an interview publicised in January 2007 with J-10 pilot Li Cunbao (李存宝), the J-10 had not yet been equipped with the domestic WS-10 engine, because although the WS-10 could match theperformance of its Russian counterpart (the AL-31), there was a serious drawback; the WS-10 took longer to "spool up", i.e. there was a delay in reaching the same thrust output as the Russian engine.


On 2 April 2009, the director of AVIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China) Lin Zuoming (林左鸣), stated that there were problems with the quality control procedures on the WS-10A production line, meaning the Taihang turbofan was still of unsatisfactory quality. He said that solving these problems would be a key step.[12] In addition to poor build quality, the engines suffered from poor reliability, the Chinese engines have been lasting 30 hours at a time vs 400 for the Russian originals.


By late 2013, the improved WS-10A engine has reached a new level of maturity and performance, it powered the J-16 throughout its entire flight test program and now the J-16 is starting to reach IOC and begin small batch production. [16] By early 2014, pictures of J-15S a twin seated variant of Shenyang J-15 naval fighter is spotting using WS-10A engine. This further proves WS-10A engine's maturity level has reached satisfactory level.​

Why are you bringing India to the topic? Didn't I just say that India is exactly in the Chinese phase of 80s, when China started a program, but couldn't produce tangible results.

Also, you can read the article, in 2007 it was not installed on J10, and had many issues. Heck even by 2009, it wasn't undergoing proper mass production. And that is according to the director of AVIC.

I would only count a mature system as a one which has been deployed in greater than 100 aircrafts, and have already been serving satisfactorily for >3 years.

They didn't immediately put the WS-10A engine on J-10 because it was still under the trial test.

The prototype No.1035 of J-10B was first spotted of testing with the WS-10A by July 2011, and the trial test was successfully accomplished in May 2015, almost four years later.

The trial test is usually long, because they need to collect the flight data of more than thousand cumulative hours test from the same engine.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

They didn't immediately put the WS-10A engine on J-10 because it was still under the trial test.

The prototype No.1035 of J-10B was first spotted of testing with the WS-10A by July 2011, and the trial test was successfully accomplished in May 2015, almost four years later.

The trial test is usually long, because they need to collect the flight data of more than thousand cumulative hours test from the same engine.

Exactly, you yourself have come to the same thing. That it is going trial test.

That was what I was saying all along. Perhaps you had different definition of maturity.

My definition is clear-

I will consider a particular system as mature, when it has been installed on >100 aircrafts, with satisfactory performance for greater than 3 years. Perhaps by 2020 that stage will come.

And I will consider China expert at jet engine if -

It can produce one-two mass produced models of jet engines for commercial aircraft, installed on greater than 100 aircraft, working well for greater than 3 years.

AND

It can produce 2-3 mass produced engines, for commercial aircraft, blah blah

AND

It has commercial and military complex that rivals Europe.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Exactly, you yourself have come to the same thing. That it is going trial test.

That was what I was saying all along. Perhaps you had different definition of maturity.

My definition is clear-

I will consider a particular system as mature, when it has been installed on >100 aircrafts, with satisfactory performance for greater than 3 years. Perhaps by 2020 that stage will come.

And I will consider China expert at jet engine if -

It can produce one-two mass produced models of jet engines for commercial aircraft, installed on greater than 100 aircraft, working well for greater than 3 years.

AND

It can produce 2-3 mass produced engines, for commercial aircraft, blah blah

AND

It has commercial and military complex that rivals Europe.

There are more than hundred of J-11 units equipped with the WS-10 engine.

The AL-31F is already on the way to be phased out, but not immediately, since you cannot swap the engines of several hundred aircrafts in just one shot.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

There are more than hundred of J-11 units equipped with the WS-10 engine.

The AL-31F is already on the way to be phased out, but not immediately, since you cannot swap the engines of several hundred aircrafts in just one shot.

I don't know that was the case, and if it indeed is the case then that date can be brought closer than 2020. At least for me, have 100 aircrafts, who are deployed and flying, with greater than 3 years deployed with satisfactory performance.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

I don't know that was the case, and if it indeed is the case then that date can be brought closer than 2020. At least for me, have 100 aircrafts, who are deployed and flying, with greater than 3 years deployed with satisfactory performance.

There are already more than hundred J-11B equipped with the WS-10A engine, i don't need to say more.

Now, the WS-10A is already ready for the J-10, and almost ready for the J-15.

I don't need to explain more.