Can an Islamic State be Secular?

[Al-zakir]

Pretty easy talking about Islamic state for others while you sit and enjoy western freedoms? Put your money where your mouth is and go live in an Islamic country if you love it so much.

Where did Islam forbid me to live in non-Islamic state and who told you that I am enjoying secular privilege (popular life style) here in the state?

There were few Masjid in USA about 20 years ago yet now we are building one on ground zero. Muslims in America are practice their own culture and believe. Islam is universal concept and a Muslim will take Islam with him wherever goes. You can see the Islamic transformation of Europe and USA.

 

[Ras]

Where did Islam forbid me to live in non-Islamic state and who told you that I am enjoying secular privilege (popular life style) here in the state?

There were few Masjid in USA about 20 years ago yet now we are building one on ground zero. Muslims in America are practice their own culture and believe. Islam is universal concept and a Muslim will take Islam with him wherever goes. You can see the Islamic transformation of Europe and USA.

Any Muslim is allowed to live in the US. But so can anyone else including people believing in the Church,Sikhs,Hindus,unicorns,witches the Martians etc etc. In the US anyone can abuse any religion including the prophets.It is called the first amendment right. I am sure that is anathema to a pious Muslim like yourself especially when you cannot do anything about it.

Nice contrast is it not to Islamic societies that America allows construction of a mosque near Ground Zero..

 

[Ahmad]

Motivation is religion.

If you believe that they are doing it Islamic cause then you are confused with your faith my friend.

No, i am not. i want religion in personal level and thats it. The more the gov and people talk about rreligion and gets obbsessed with it, the more they become intollerant and radical/extreme. moderation is good in everything, turkey has presented a good example to a good degree, it is not bad to follow those guys, pakistan and afghanistan have paid heavy price for too much obsesion with religion.

Yes they are doing it in the name of Islam but Islam never endorsed it and as good Muslim you have right to demise them to protect Islamic principal form enemy of Islam.

they are human killers and their place is in the deep bottom of jahanam, this can be applied to both Afghanistan's taliban and pakistan's taliban.

Munafiq also act, eat, dress and pray like Muslims yet they are worst than Kafir as fer Qur'an and Sunnah. It will be foolish to believe that Munafiqs aren't around anymore.

thats right.

We have Muslim born criminal too. NO!!!

yes, alot of them.

 

[Al-zakir]

Church,Sikhs,Hindus,unicorns,witches the Martians etc etc. In the US

It's true for Islam is even more. As I have told you in another thread that semi-Islamic Bangladesh allow religious holidays for negligible minority yet USA doesn't. So Islamic state is better than secular in true essence.

anyone can abuse any religion including the prophets.It is called the first amendment right.

Here we disagree. We can not allow scums to abuse our religion. We will take care of those try to abuse our Prophet as well as Jesus(Isha...s.a.a.w). There should be a limit to abuse first amendment right.

 

[Ras]

Here we disagree. We can not allow scums to abuse our religion. We will take care of those try to abuse our Prophet as well as Jesus(Isha...s.a.a.w). There should be a limit to abuse first amendment right.

Well there is nothing you can do in the US about it. The first amendment is superior to any religion or prophet in the US. Still sure you want to stay in a country which allows this?

 

[nForce]

It's true for Islam is even more. As I have told you in another thread that semi-Islamic Bangladesh allow religious holidays for negligible minority yet USA doesn't. So Islamic state is better than secular in true essence.

How can you just conclude that Islamic state is better than Secular state just on the basis of religious holidays.Here in India we have public holidays for Buddha purnima(Buddhist),Christmas(Christian),Eid-ul-Fitr(Islamic),Diwali(Hindu),Guru Nanak Jayanti(Sikh) and India happens to be a secular state.Now i am really confused...Based on your theory,the secular system must be better than the concept of Islamic state.

 

[Al-zakir]

No, i am not. i want religion in personal level and thats it. The more the gov and people talk about rreligion and gets obbsessed with it, the more they become intollerant and radical/extreme. moderation is good in everything, turkey has presented a good example to a good degree, it is not bad to follow those guys, pakistan and afghanistan have paid heavy price for too much obsesion with religion.

Islam is to follow in moderation but not too lose or extreme. We Muslim must give priority Islam then other religion because if we believe that other religion equal to Islam then our faith become questionable. So if you believe in secularism (west style) then you are placing Islam in equal to other religions which is haram in sense.

Let me give you example. Performing sunnat like having beard is encouraged but not farz( mandatory) yet a Muslim can not disrespect if any one keep it because prophet(S.A.A.S) did it.

You do have to realized that Islam must be placed on above all other religions by Muslim because Islam demand it.

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

Where did Islam forbid me to live in non-Islamic state and who told you that I am enjoying secular privilege (popular life style) here in the state?

There were few Masjid in USA about 20 years ago yet now we are building one on ground zero. Muslims in America are practice their own culture and believe. Islam is universal concept and a Muslim will take Islam with him wherever goes. You can see the Islamic transformation of Europe and USA.

I dont see an Islamic transformation in the USA any more then I see any other, Irish, Jewish, Spanish, Russian, Greek, Black, American Indian, you have the same rights as other americans, no more, no less. You have the right to worship as you please. That is as it should be in a free and democratic country.

 

[Al-zakir]

Well there is nothing you can do in the US about it. The first amendment is superior to any religion or prophet in the US.

Perhaps but it doesn't mean that this will ultimately stay in it's place. We do not follow it the way you do it. We Muslim restrain our self from making unwanted comment against religions. Society will take it course as society shape in the future.

Still sure you want to stay in a country which allows this?

I haven't disagree about first amendment to it entirety and we shall put a limit on religious ground some time in future.

 

[Al-zakir]

You have the right to worship as you please. That is as it should be in a free and democratic country.

Ok so how it's untrue in Islamic state? Hindus, Sikh, christian or other religions are freely worshiping their gods so why are suggesting otherwise?

 

[Ras]

I haven't disagree about first amendment to it entirety and we shall put a limit on religious ground some time in future.

It does not matter...the vast majority of Americans are Christians and you can abuse Christians all you want. The first amendment was put in place by the founding fathers all of whom where Christians BTW.
The freedom of speech is paramount above any religion.

 

[Ras]

I dont see an Islamic transformation in the USA any more then I see any other, Irish, Jewish, Spanish, Russian, Greek, Black, American Indian, you have the same rights as other americans, no more, no less. You have the right to worship as you please. That is as it should be in a free and democratic country.

Especially as the US is slowly getting a bigger Hispanic population all of whom are more devoutly Christian than WASP's.

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

I asked a simple question but no body answered... So I m asking you... as the article suggests that Islamic state is equivalent to secular state then why not we fight for Islamic state instead of secular state??

You might want to read this:
Islam and economic development
Islam and economic development

Islamic constraints to development

In Islam, women are inferior to men, Quran (4:34). No alternative quotations or excuses can prove otherwise. Recent figures from the International Labor Organization, published by the World Bank, indicate that in the Middle East and North Africa, women comprise 28% of the total labor force whereas the world average is 40%. As a group, these countries have the lowest female labor force participation rate in the world. One of the lowest figures is Saudi Arabia with 16%. As distance from the Arabian Peninsula increases, so does the proportion of women in the labor force. In Pakistan the figure is 28.6 percent,

The nature of Islamic education may not be helpful in developing open minded citizens fully equipped to fulfill their ambitions and potential. The time devoted to daily religious observances and annual festivals such as Ramadan may detract from time available for economically productive activities to a greater extent compared with other religions. The religion contributes to an attitude of fatalism and complacency. Even in countries with oil wealth, there has been a conspicuous failure to effectively use revenues for the purpose of industrial development.


The constraints and costs imposed on financial institutions by the nominal prohibition on interest payments may preclude a free market in financial capital, causing inefficiency, moral hazard in banking, and limiting the funds available for investment. The prohibition on interests serves no beneficial purpose. Apart from it being banned by the Quran, there is no reason in modern times for the charging of interest to be considered immoral. In ancient times unscrupulous tax collectors may have forced people to pay exorbitant and unreasonable interest on unpaid taxes. Today, there is no compulsion, but rather competition between lenders to offer attractive rates. Those that borrow money receive a service and those that lend it provide one. Elaborate schemes to circumvent such transactions because of their supposed immorality or due to their prohibition in Islam serve no purpose except to increase costs and increase inefficiency.

Islamic tax regimes may negatively effect resource allocation, productivity and innovation. Conflict between secular and sharia law may contribute to an ineffective rule of law, a lack of trust in judicial institutions, moral hazard in judiciary, limitation on property rights and contract law, all of which have negative economic consequences. Religious constraints on the freedom of speech and on the power of the legislature, may impinge on democratic rights, institutions, political freedom and the ability to expose and eradicate corruption, again with negative economic impacts.

Where religion contributes to the order of society and a feeling of well being amongst citizens, its benefits may seem considerable. When it contributes to ignorance, inefficiency and poverty it becomes a cost to society and a liability.

I say when you add religion and goverment togather you have a real mess.

 

[Jigs]

It does not matter...the vast majority of Americans are Christians and you can abuse Christians all you want. The first amendment was put in place by the founding fathers all of whom where Christians BTW.
The freedom of speech is paramount above any religion.

You do know the founding fathers were against religion. Especially Christianity they were very critical about. Thomas Jefferson He even wrote a book on the bible outlining which places to follow and which places are against logic. He only picked out the good teachings that make you a good person. The rest he said is crap.


- Benjamin Franklin (Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.)

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

Every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." - George Washington (Letter to the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789)

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)

"When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin (from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."- Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" - John Adams

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)

 

[Ras]

You do know the founding fathers were against religion. Especially Christianity they were very critical about. Thomas Jefferson He even wrote a book on the bible outlining which places to follow and which places are against logic. He only picked out the good teachings that make you a good person. The rest he said is crap.


- Benjamin Franklin (Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.)

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

Every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." - George Washington (Letter to the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789)

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)

"When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin (from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."- Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" - John Adams

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)

Ya sure...Jefferson in particular was against Christianity but that does not take anything away from the fact that the founding fathers were men of faith and Christians. But they had the sense and wisdom to keep religion away as far as possible from the state.

Though there have been some efforts by the right in recent times to rewrite history in this regard.