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Britain, Turkey sign defence deal to develop Turkish fighter jet

Twin engine air superiority stealth capable fighter plane. Erdogan has the political will to even pump Billions in this Project, but i don´t think EU and USA are amused about the involvement of the Brits. I think Brits will suck the Money of Turks and later cancel the delivery of parts because of already aprooved embargoes on Turkey after Erdogan becomes quasi dictator.

Remember The brits taking Ottoman cash for delivery of 6 british warships in 1914 but refused to deliver after the war brake out.

The Ottoman Sultan Abdulhamid ordered them, but later he was replaced with a criminal bunch called jeuneturks who desperatly did everything to **** up the Ottoman empire to replace it with their own desired secular republic.
I don't think so. You might have a point about past British empire troubled relationship with Ottoman Turkey. However both countries were at war back then and on opposing sides (with the Turks siding with the Germans/Nazi's) , hence our actions were justified in using every method at our disposal to break up the ottoman empire into pieces, every power would have done the same thing. :)
However today it's different, we don't have much conflict of interests with Turkey, plus as our P.M said, we view human rights and Trade/military partnerships as two different things. We don't mix them up. Reason we have strong military relations and arms exports to many countries who may be considered to have hman rights issues. :) Our position is clear.
 
I don't think so. You might have a point about past British empire troubled relationship with Ottoman Turkey. However both countries were at war back then and on opposing sides (with the Turks siding with the Germans/Nazi's) , hence our actions were justified in using every method at our disposal to break up the ottoman empire into pieces, every power would have done the same thing. :)
However today it's different, we don't have much conflict of interests with Turkey, plus as our P.M said, we view human rights and Trade/military partnerships as two different things. We don't mix them up. Reason we have strong military relations and arms exports to many countries who may be considered to have hman rights issues. :) Our position is clear.

The difference is, British saw the war coming and took the Money anyway. Who can blaim you? You are hardcore darwinists.

The Turks simply are too naive. They can not survive the harsh conditions in the modern world. You should screw them once again like your mighty ancestors!
 
The difference is, British saw the war coming and took the Money anyway. Who can blaim you? You are hardcore darwinists.

The Turks simply are too naive. They can not survive the harsh conditions in the modern world. You should screw them once again like your mighty ancestors!

I see the cynicism in your post, instead i have some skeps. on the ground of Britions background.

However, neither of those can explain your stake in this deal betwen Turkey and England. Fear of another rival in industry/market and a threat in the region would be the easist guess for you with high IQ, therefore please share us the motivation in your post.
 
I don't think so. You might have a point about past British empire troubled relationship with Ottoman Turkey. However both countries were at war back then and on opposing sides (with the Turks siding with the Germans/Nazi's) , hence our actions were justified in using every method at our disposal to break up the ottoman empire into pieces, every power would have done the same thing. :)

Turkey was neutral during WW2, so you mistaken if you spoke about Nazi.
And the Ottoman empire enter in the WW1 after the English refused to deliver the ships, of course maybe English already knew Ottoman will participe against them in the war so they naturally refuse to deliver to them or if this refusal was one reason to push the ottoman in the war....But either case Ottoman empire was not in war with English when England refused to delivre them.
 
TF-X: A New Chapter in UK–Turkey Relations Takes Flight
February 6 2017 at 2:04 PM
turkish_air_force_f-16_in_jordan_0.jpg



RUSI Defence Systems, 31 January 2017
Air Power and Technology, Europe, Turkey, Military Sciences, Aerospace

Britain and Turkey signed a £100 million deal on 28 January during Theresa May’s trade talks in Ankara with President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Under the deal, BAE Systems will join forces with Turkish Aerospace Industries to develop a ‘fifth-generation fighter’ for the Turkish Air Force of the 2020s. What sort of aircraft could be produced and what implications could there be?
Britain and Turkey signed a £100 million deal on 28 January during Theresa May’s trade talks in Ankara with President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Under the deal, BAE Systems will join forces with Turkish Aerospace Industries to develop a ‘fifth-generation fighter’ for the Turkish Air Force of the 2020s. What sort of aircraft could be produced and what implications could there be?

While the RAF and Armée de l’Air usually come to mind as the most potent European NATO member air forces, the Turkish Air Force substantially eclipses both in terms of size. It operates a modern and effective fighter force composed predominantly of Lockheed Martin F-16s licence built by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI).

As a partner in the F-35 programme, it is no secret that the Turkish Air Force wants to upgrade to fifth-generation capabilities to keep in step with the other major air forces in NATO.

However, financial limitations and possible security concerns have limited the number of F-35s which Turkey has on order at present to six with an eventual ambition for around 100. Turkey is determined to develop an indigenous fifth-generation combat aircraft manufacturing capability as soon as possible.

Enter BAE Systems; the defence giant with experience developing and building major parts of the F-35, as well as its own Taranis low-observable UCAV. BAE Systems has the required experience and industrial knowledge to develop fifth-generation aircraft, but no domestic market to enable it to remain a producer of combat aircraft outside manufacturing parts of the Lockheed Martin F-35.

Turkey offers that market, with an air force of nineteen squadrons of third- and fourth-generation fighters in need of eventual replacement, and a threat environment likely to remain characterised by foreign interventions, instability and the proliferation of high-end weapons systems.

As such, the stated requirement for TF-X is at least 250 air-superiority fighters.

Little has been disclosed so far in terms of what sort of fighter might emerge from the TF-X collaboration. So far, the concept has not been narrowed down to a single or twin-engine design, although a derivative of Eurojet’s EJ200 that powers the Eurofighter Typhoon has been selected to power the production fighter.

Turkey prefers a twin-engine aircraft, but key envisaged export customers such as Pakistan would prefer a single-engine jet for cost reasons.

Given the relatively close geographical distances between Turkey and potential opponents, it is likely that range on internal fuel may be a lower priority design variable than cost, internal weapons payload and low-observable airframe shaping.

Equally, the Turkish MoD’s stated timeline of 2023 for a first flight and roughly $100 million per airframe unit cost target impose limitations on how ambitious the design of the new fighter can be. With examples to draw on from the F-22, F-35 and China’s J-20, the development of a low-observable airframe shape should not be an impossible task for TAI within that timeframe.

However, as all those who have so far tried have discovered, it is much harder to develop something that operates like a true fifth-generation fighter with all the required sensor suite and information processing capabilities. Stealth coatings are also a dark art which takes a great deal of industrial know-how and experience to master.

BAE Systems can certainly make a critical contribution to the Turkish TF-X effort in the areas of sensor integration, airframe design, weapons integration and defensive aids suite. However, the question is how much technology transfer will be permitted under the agreement, especially where American International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) concerns might be raised.

On the other hand, the Turkish defence electronics firm ASELSAN has reportedly already begun work on an active electronically scanned array AESA radar for the TF-X programme incorporating advanced gallium nitride technology. Therefore, Turkish industry seems to already be at a fairly advanced stage for many critical component technologies.

BAE Systems sensor integration and defensive aids suite expertise might be able to help TAI produce most of the critical systems for TF-X without encountering too many ITAR restrictions.

There is still a great deal of uncertainty (or possibly everything to play for) in terms of the nature of BAE Systems’ participation in the eventual production of a fighter version of TF-X. The Turkish preference is clearly for production to be undertaken almost exclusively by TAI and, therefore, barring large scale export successes there is little evidence that BAE will manufacture much beyond select components and sensors.

It is, therefore, premature to assume that TF-X will keep BAE Systems in the fighter-manufacturing business outside the F-35 programme, even though it will undoubtedly help to maintain the institutional knowledge base required through technical collaboration arrangements.

However, there are reasons to keep an eye on the export prospects for TF-X if it does mature into a useful low-observable air superiority fighter in the mid-late 2020s.

First, a little competition is no bad thing, and if one thing has come to characterise the fifth-generation fighter market in recent years, it is a lack of Western competitors to the monolithic F-35 programme.

Second, the F-35 is optimised for strike and SEAD operations in heavily defended airspace, rather than for air superiority. The TF-X has long been intended as a complementary capability alongside the strike-oriented F-35 in Turkish service.

This implies a focus on missile-load, air-to-air radar performance and the capability to operate ‘high and fast’ in a similar fashion to the US Air Force’s formidable F-22 and the Eurofighter Typhoon. Twin EJ200-derived engines could certainly produce an aircraft with potent performance, especially given the streamlining and internal weapons and fuel carriage requirements inherent in a ‘stealth’ design.

This sort of capability is something that many air forces are keen to acquire, and countries such as Japan and Australia have been explicit about their frustrations with not being permitted to purchase the F-22 for this reason.

If TAI and BAE Systems can develop a low-observable fighter with the ability to carry six or more medium-range air-to air-missiles internally, an AESA radar, sensor fusion and supercruise capabilities for somewhere in the region of $100-120 million per airframe, then the potential export opportunities could be extremely lucrative and potentially even lead to manufacturing of the aircraft on multiple production lines in different countries.

Politics, however, will undoubtedly remain the TF-X’s worst enemy on the road to the creation of a viable fifth-generation air superiority fighter. Turkey’s strained relations with other NATO members over President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s authoritarian policies, the refugee crisis and EU membership offer the potential to scupper the transfer of high-end military technologies and defence collaboration if they continue to worsen.

Furthermore, the improving Ankara–Moscow relationship remains a matter of serious concern for other NATO members, both as a potential source of war with Russia over flashpoint confrontations, and also conversely as a potential source of technology compromise to Russia during the periods when Turkey is tempted to play the West off against the Kremlin when it suits.

Finally, the most recent in Turkey’s long history of military coups saw the gutting of many of the finest squadrons in the Turkish Air Force during subsequent reprisals and a helicopter pilot defecting with his aircraft to Greece when it became clear that the attempted overthrow had failed.

In this case, the defectors landed in NATO territory, but there is a risk that in future, assuming the long-standing rift between the military and Islamist political movement continues to simmer in Turkey, that defecting pilots might deliver high-end Western military technology to Russia, Iran or countries friendly to those regimes.

In the end though, the economics of fighter development and procurement are likely to trump security concerns and BAE Systems and TAI will have the opportunity to jointly develop a fifth- generation combat aircraft with huge export potential on the basis of relatively mature and understood technologies.

If they succeed, it will change the combat aircraft market for decades to come.

https://rusi.org/publication/rusi-defence-systems/tf-x-new-chapter-uk–turkey-relations-takes-flight
 
Pak has now this sweet issue of keeping everybody on board to prevent Gum from the friends. Sometimes isolation may be good!!!


My observations is like whatever Turkey produces ultimately ends up at the Pak hands in one way or another. How can this mother of all projects be an anomaly??!?!?
Insha Allah both Turkey and Pakistan will get a great knowledge and expertise their staff .and also this collaboration will open new gates of cooperation between two brother countries,Insha Allah.i wish Pakistan never miss this train and join the Turkish journey of new aviation era start with "TF-X"
 
I see the cynicism in your post, instead i have some skeps. on the ground of Britions background.

However, neither of those can explain your stake in this deal betwen Turkey and England. Fear of another rival in industry/market and a threat in the region would be the easist guess for you with high IQ, therefore please share us the motivation in your post.
What are you on about?:what:.
 
Insha Allah both Turkey and Pakistan will get a great knowledge and expertise their staff .and also this collaboration will open new gates of cooperation between two brother countries,Insha Allah.i wish Pakistan never miss this train and join the Turkish journey of new aviation era start with "TF-X"
I'm skeptical about Pakistan's participation to be honest. One of the main reasons we are so willing to cooperate/help Turkey in such a crucial sensitive military project is also because Turkey is part of NATO and has been a close member/aligned to the West for over half a century now. So it's military doctrine, equipments, defence policies and arms industry is heavily tilted twoards European powers and the U.S( the West in general). As such it's far easier for us o streamline our cooperation and partner in building such complex weapon systems , something which will be inconceivable to-do with a non NATO member. Plus Pakistan close ties with China(government might be wary of its sensitive technology leaking to the Chinese as well) MIGHT also be an issue. So it might be an issue letting Pakistan in( at least not as a crucial member with access to sensitive technology/source codes etc ) such a project apart from a symbolic one . Plus alot of investment running into tens of bjllions will also be required throughout the lifetime of this project (15-20years or so)
 
I'm skeptical about Pakistan's participation to be honest. One of the main reasons we are so willing to cooperate/help Turkey in such a crucial sensitive military project is also because Turkey is part of NATO and has been a close member/aligned to the West for over half a century now. So it's military doctrine, equipments, defence policies and arms industry is heavily tilted twoards European powers and the U.S( the West in general). As such it's far easier for us o streamline our cooperation and partner in building such complex weapon systems , something which will be inconceivable to-do with a non NATO member. Plus Pakistan close ties with China(government might be wary of its sensitive technology leaking to the Chinese as well) MIGHT also be an issue. So it might be an issue letting Pakistan in( at least not as a crucial member with access to sensitive technology/source codes etc ) such a project apart from a symbolic one . Plus alot of investment running into tens of bjllions will also be required throughout the lifetime of this project (15-20years or so)

TF-X is made to be exported at some point. So pakistan if want to buy few later, will be able to. if pakistan get into it, I think it's only to add fund in theproject, no sharing tech involved. or very little from Turkey side...
 
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I'm skeptical about Pakistan's participation to be honest. One of the main reasons we are so willing to cooperate/help Turkey in such a crucial sensitive military project is also because Turkey is part of NATO and has been a close member/aligned to the West for over half a century now. So it's military doctrine, equipments, defence policies and arms industry is heavily tilted twoards European powers and the U.S( the West in general). As such it's far easier for us o streamline our cooperation and partner in building such complex weapon systems , something which will be inconceivable to-do with a non NATO member. Plus Pakistan close ties with China(government might be wary of its sensitive technology leaking to the Chinese as well) MIGHT also be an issue. So it might be an issue letting Pakistan in( at least not as a crucial member with access to sensitive technology/source codes etc ) such a project apart from a symbolic one . Plus alot of investment running into tens of bjllions will also be required throughout the lifetime of this project (15-20years or so)

You're right but I do believe that Pakistan will participate in this project. I don't think they'll get any kind of technical know how from Britain but I guess that Turkey will share something at her own charge. At least I am convinced that the Pakistani defense industry will receive orders from Turkey.

But I don't share your argument regarding Turkey's alliance with the West: you're overestimating Turkey's Nato membership in this context. Your country's defense ties with Saudi Arabia are deeper, closer and more solid than our relation with London. The reason why there is no such kind of project with Riyadh is due to the simple fact that Saudi Arabia has almost no (defense) industry.
 
You're right but I do believe that Pakistan will participate in this project. I don't think they'll get any kind of technical know how from Britain but I guess that Turkey will share something at her own charge. At least I am convinced that the Pakistani defense industry will receive orders from Turkey.

But I don't share your argument regarding Turkey's alliance with the West: you're overestimating Turkey's Nato membership in this context. Your country's defense ties with Saudi Arabia are deeper, closer and more solid than our relation with London. The reason why there is no such kind of project with Riyadh is due to the simple fact that Saudi Arabia has almost no (defense) industry.

Can you give an example?
 
Can you give an example?

Von der Unterstützung der Araber gegen die Osmanen bis hin zur gegenwärtigen Operation in Jemen; die Briten standen stets auf Seiten der Saudis. Das ist eigentlich kein Geheimnis. Vor wenigen Tagen wurde auch beiläufig hier im Forum aufgelistet, welche Waffensysteme die Saudis von den Briten erhielten, die unter anderen Umständen nicht für den Export freigegeben sind. An jeder saudischen Militäroperation sind angelsächsische Militärexperten beteiligt. Die Ziele, die in Jemen zur Liquidierung auserkoren werden, bestimmen und präzisieren biritische Analysten in Riyadh. Kein muslimisches Land - nicht einmal Pakistan - hat einen solch offenen Einblick in das Innenleben des saudischen Militärs und der politischen Elite wie Briten und Amerikaner.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...d-saudi-air-campaign-in-yemen-even-as-strike/
https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmfaff/88/88.pdf
https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmfaff/688/688.pdf
https://www.caat.org.uk/campaigns/stop-arming-saudi/a-shameful-relationship.pdf
 
You're right but I do believe that Pakistan will participate in this project. I don't think they'll get any kind of technical know how from Britain but I guess that Turkey will share something at her own charge. At least I am convinced that the Pakistani defense industry will receive orders from Turkey.

But I don't share your argument regarding Turkey's alliance with the West: you're overestimating Turkey's Nato membership in this context. Your country's defense ties with Saudi Arabia are deeper, closer and more solid than our relation with London. The reason why there is no such kind of project with Riyadh is due to the simple fact that Saudi Arabia has almost no (defense) industry.
I agree, but we are saying the same thing in a different way. :D

Britain's close military relationship and weapon sales with Saudi Arabia, Oman, and other gulf states is also due to our shared interests and historical reason. These countries also gained their independence due to Britain after Britain's crucial role in the dissolution of the Ottoman empire, then the tyrant Saddam's erratic behaviour of threatening and invading other gulf states back in the 70s-90s and also the "Islamic Revolution" in Iran and the Ayatollah's ooen policy back then of exporting their version of Islamic Revolution to the Arab world/gulf states. etc. All these events helped solidify Britain's military relationship/setting up of military bases, intelligence service branches with these countries coupled with the wealth/ purchasing power these countries had(and still have) in buying the very best we have to offer. So it's a mixture of many things and historical event as well.

Plus you are right to some extent that we haven't had any crucial partnership in developing a complex military system like a fighter jet or missile system with any of these countries as of yet unlike the one we have now signed with Turkey , this is not only due to these countries not having a strong enough military industry/base to carry out such a big project as you said earlier but also because they didn't see the need to do so since the threat they faced was rather imminent in most cases and developing a fighter jet to full serial production/induction takes decades, something these countries couldn't afford, hence their off the shelf buying, plus even so I'm not sure we would have agreed to do so, since despite our very close military ties none of these countries is a part of a NATO .:).
So I still stand by my point that if Turkey wasn't part of NATO, we will never have agreed to such a crucial sensitive deal. :agree:
 
Die Ziele, die in Jemen zur Liquidierung auserkoren werden, bestimmen und präzisieren biritische Analysten in Riyadh.
Das hat nur mit der tatsache zu tun das die Britische regierung ''freizuegiger'' ist mit der freigabe von militaer experten.
Die Amerikaner sind nicht sehr freizuegig in dieser hinzicht,man koennte die Briten als ''zweite'' wahl bezeichnen.
(Mein deutsch ist ein wenig verrostet)
 
Can you give an example?

Now I am able to understand your German style .
Short, precise and only asking for answers. Investigating and double checking facts you already know.
Don't feel offended, but is it fair ?

Lets talk open, we will have TF-X in the air for our 100 th. year Turkish Republic Founding in 2023.
It will incorporate RR engines but a lot of innovative Turkish systems.

Sorry for Germany and the Brexit which was a strong sign against new german Imperial Plans , don't be jealous.
Try to smile.
 

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