Breaking News - Hawk Jet trainer crashed

[Blue Marlin]

Those issues are apparent in the early years of most licenced products as the local entity (in this case HAL) gets up to speed and thus there will be an issue with sourcing spares unless a seperate spares contract is inked with the OEM (which is almost never allowed with Indian licenced procurements).

They have largely been dealt with and HAL's Hawk line is running optimally now and will soon be the sole Hawk production line in the world. In this light BAE are already exploring upgrade possibilities with HAL based on the Hawk to serve export markets.


I am of the same mind for the exact same resons so kudos mate! Parriakr made the same call on the HTT-40 (forced HAL to start the project instead of allowing the IAF to procure another 120 PC-7s) and the plane has gone from drawing board to flying in less than 2.5 years with an expected FOC in 2018. Exanding the portfolio of products that can be exported is never a bad idea.

when you buy a licenced product the first lrip are alway the most importan as the people who built them have not built anything like it before which is where technicians from bae systems would be activly inspecting the work being done.
this bring up a interesting question what about the rafales? they must be quiet nervous letting hal built them.

letting hal develop the htt-40 over getting them to build the pc-7 is another good idea it would bring confidance to future customers and it shows its a proven bird. in this case its to early to tell who's or what is to blame. lets just wait and see.

 

[Abingdonboy]

this bring up a interesting question what about the rafales? they must be quiet nervous letting hal built them.

HAL won't be building the Rafales, Dassualt are free to tie up with any Indian partner they like.

 

[ayesha.a]

HAL won't be building the Rafales, Dassualt are free to tie up with any Indian partner they like.

There is no other Indian entity they can partner with, that can match HAL's experience or expertise. It may be unfortunate, but it is the reality in India - private companies were never allowed to enter the defence manufacturing sector, and govt entities are all that existed. However bad or good they may be, they are the only ones with experience in the aerospace sector.

 

[Abingdonboy]

There is no other Indian entity they can partner with, that can match HAL's experience or expertise. It may be unfortunate, but it is the reality in India - private companies were never allowed to enter the defence manufacturing sector, and govt entities are all that existed. However bad or good they may be, they are the only ones with experience in the aerospace sector.

Well HAL has been in a protection position all this time, this GoI is opening the windows of opportunity to the private sector and Dassualt will be able to partner with any private player they like. Dassualt is clearly going to have to hand hold the Indian private partner but the potential is quite huge to build up a hugely well trained work force and industrial base outside of the public sector.

Just like TATA is building up its own aerospace business and will eventually look to rival HAL in its own domain, Mahindra, Reliance and L&T would all like to join the party too.

However bad or good they may be, they are the only ones with experience in the aerospace sector.

How is anyone else going to get this expereince if all deals are given to HAL? At some point one has to break their monopoly and that point has already come and gone, the past is the past, the future will be very different.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Your point? Does the article state that the runway wasn't long enough, or that the pilots "freaked out"?

i generated ideas to sudgest the crash may be due to any thing other than a technical failure.

As I said, there was a CoI to look into the matter, which is always the case in the military. I wish the other government bodies were equally self correcting.
The article states the generic "technical snag", which is always what is told to the media, if it isn't "human error".

so the officail is talking rubbish then?
if its not techincal or human then that leaves mother nature. where that too does cause crashes. but the article does not mention anything about bad weather.

Long story short, the IAF is one of the largest operators of the BAE Hawk, and HAL will soon be the largest foreign manufacturer. (The Indian navy also uses the Hawk, and in the next ten years, will be one of the largest users.). If you want to insinuate a quality issue about HAL manufactured Hawks, or if you want to insinuate that the Indian military somehow crashes them more than is warranted, you had damn well support your assertion with facts. For now, looking at the crash record of the Hawks in India and abroad, neither the IAF nor IN nor HAL deserve your invective .

the hawk is a good bird i prefer to see these crashes as anomalies. but it still leaves the question of hal and its ability to produce airframes being consistent.
and if you want proof.........google or bing is your friend and might i suggest looking at papers from your own country.

HAL won't be building the Rafales, Dassualt are free to tie up with any Indian partner they like.

im with @ayesha.a on this one there is no company able to build such a complex bird.
heck im wondering how is tata going to build c295's?

How is anyone else going to get this expereince if all deals are given to HAL? At some point one has to break their monopoly and that point has already come and gone, the past is the past, the future will be very different.

breaking the monopoly is a a good idea but how are you going to break it. are there enough engineers who are qualified enoughto built planes or jets? thats the biggest hold back. money, space(factories) and approval is no problem,

 

[Abingdonboy]

the hawk is a good bird i prefer to see these crashes as anomalies. but it still leaves the question of hal and its ability to produce airframes being consistent.
and if you want proof.........google or bing is your friend and might i suggest looking at papers from your own country.

HAL is a massively expereinced entity that has produced 1000s of very diverse a/c, to name but a few:

MiG-21
MiG-27
Jaguar
Hawk MK.132
Su-30MKI
Do-228
Avro
Chetak/l
Cheeah/n
Gnat


Not to mention developing their own birds:
Marut
Deepak
Kiran IJT
HJT-36
HTT-40
LCA
ALH/Rudra
LCH
LUH

You will struggle to find many other entites with such varied and extensive expertise. If there were systamatic issues with HAL the entire IAF, IN and IA (AAC) would be crippled. Let's not overplay outliers as the Indian media tends to do.

 

[Blue Marlin]

HAL won't be building the Rafales, Dassualt are free to tie up with any Indian partner they like.

and who do you think they will pick? a new bie who hasn't even built a single piston prop or an experianced company who has built jets of that type before?
i i was dassault i would choose hal but i would send engineers there to check an recheck every thing they do and iron out any imperfections.

 

[Abingdonboy]

heck im wondering how is tata going to build c295's?

TATA is a VAST company with ample resources (both financial and human) to through at this project and they already have a great deal of expertise in their efforts linked to the AH-64, CH-47, 787, 737, S-92 etc etc

@Water Car Engineer

breaking the monopoly is a a good idea but how are you going to break it. are there enough engineers who are qualified enoughto built planes or jets? thats the biggest hold back. money, space(factories) and approval is no problem,

It's not going to be an easy task but it has to be done and this is directly in line with the grander Indian govt policy of "Skill India". The human capital is abundent in India and the fact that Indian companies are being increasingly intergrated into global OEM supply (and procution) chains is testament to this.

@PARIKRAMA

 

[Blue Marlin]

HAL is a massively expereinced entity that has produced 1000s of very diverse a/c, to name but a few:

MiG-21
MiG-27
Jaguar
Hawk MK.132
Su-30MKI
Do-228
Avro
Chetak/l
Cheeah/n
Gnat


Not to mention developing their own birds:
Marut
Deepak
Kiran IJT
HJT-36
HTT-40
LCA
ALH/Rudra
LCH
LUH

You will struggle to find many other entites with such varied and extensive expertise. If there were systamatic issues with HAL the entire IAF, IN and IA (AAC) would be crippled. Let's not overplay outliers as the Indian media tends to do.

thats true which is why i classed them as anomalies, but there has been times where we have seen their ugly side. ecuador and the dhruvs is one of the most notable. i would still choose hal over the private sector.
heres an idea why not a joint venture hal and lets say tata build them together. hal would send their workers to tatas factories and they would be trained and they would build subsections.

thats an idea, you need to learn to crawl before you can run right?

 

[Abingdonboy]

and who do you think they will pick? a new bie who hasn't even built a single piston prop or an experianced company who has built jets of that type before?
i i was dassault i would choose hal but i would send engineers there to check an recheck every thing they do and iron out any imperfections.

It seems likely that it will be Reliance, Dassualt wanted them from the outset (even during MMRCA procurement when HAL was meant to be the lead intergrator).

@randomradio @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @PARIKRAMA

 

[TOPGUN]

hawks are made to last

i blame hal since they make it and they maintain it.
i heard they have discrepancies between each hawk and each bird is never the same. same applies to their other projects

Nothing is made to last friend .. its a machine like a body simply. Thank GOD the pilots are safe life can not be replaced may GOD bless them.

 

[Blue Marlin]

TATA is a VAST company with ample resources (both financial and human) to through at this project and they already have a great deal of expertise in their efforts linked to the AH-64, CH-47, 787, 737, S-92 etc etc

@Water Car Engineer


It's not going to be an easy task but it has to be done and this is directly in line with the grander Indian govt policy of "Skill India". The human capital is abundent in India and the fact that Indian companies are being increasingly intergrated into global OEM supply (and procution) chains is testament to this.

@PARIKRAMA

im worried that tata is building the ah-64 and the ch-47 that worries me. anyway lets see if they prove me wrong which would be good on their part.

the c295 is differant ball game here.
i would assume the c295 is only for domestic use only as you can buy c295's. c235's and c212's from indoneasia at a very good price.

Nothing is made to last friend .. its a machine like a body simply. Thank GOD the pilots are safe life can not be replaced may GOD bless them.

its a figure of speech, they only had them since around 2007 and 3 of them have gone down.
yes its good the pilots are safe.

 

[Abingdonboy]

but there has been times where we have seen their ugly side. ecuador and the dhruvs is one of the most notable

The Ecuador case was very unfortunate for HAL and the ALH as a product.

CLose to 200 ALH are in service in India (with the IN, ICG, IA,IAF and police forces) with more orders being placed every year (the IN and ICG recently placed a joint order for 32 Mk.3s) and as we all know the Indian users are very hard to please so if they are happy with it it speaks very highly for the bird. The bird serves in the heights of Siachin, the deserts of Thar and everywhere in between.

Furthermore, it has been further refined over the years (Mk.1,Mk.2,Mk.3, Mk.4 etc).

The FAE was just a terrible customer to sell to in retrospect but the fact is they seem to crash every single type they operate in high numbers regardless of the source/type.

heres an idea why not a joint venture hal and lets say tata build them together. hal would send their workers to tatas factories and they would be trained and they would build subsections.

It's an idea.

But as it stands, the GoI has given Dassualt the authority to select their own partner and then this offer will be inspected by the MoD. I don't think Dassualt will want to engage in an overly complex structure (Dassualt-RIL-HAL JV).

But it should be noted that HAL/ADA is increasingly embracing the private sector and outsourcing sub-assembly production to them:

 

[Blue Marlin]

It seems likely that it will be Reliance, Dassualt wanted them from the outset (even during MMRCA procurement when HAL was meant to be the lead intergrator).

@randomradio @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @PARIKRAMA

thats would take atleast 2 years to figure that out. heck the of the shelf birds are not even signed for.
i was told it would be done for by september the latest.

 

[Abingdonboy]

im worried that tata is building the ah-64 and the ch-47 that worries me. anyway lets see if they prove me wrong which would be good on their part.

TASL (TATA's strategic division) has been producing the entire cabin for every S-92 for years (including those meant for the POTUS in the near future) not to mention sub-assemblies of the CH-47F, F-18, P-8 and many other global products, I don't see any OEM having made any negative comments about TASL's work.

@Water Car Engineer

the c295 is differant ball game here.
i would assume the c295 is only for domestic use only as you can buy c295's. c235's and c212's from indoneasia at a very good price.

Let's see how it goes, I don't see why TATA couldn't service third party markets.

thats would take atleast 2 years to figure that out. heck the of the shelf birds are not even signed for.

That deal (for make in India) will be signed in 2017, the Defence Minister has stated this.

i was told it would be done for by september the latest.

It is taking an annoyingly long time mate but it is not far off now.