Breaking News - Hawk Jet trainer crashed

[shah1398]

HOw old are these Hawk jets..??

This might give a good insight of the IAF Hawk program.

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories160.htm

 

[ayesha.a]

hawks are made to last

i blame hal since they make it and they maintain it.
i heard they have discrepancies between each hawk and each bird is never the same. same applies to their other projects

Number of HAL-built Hawks to crash = 3 (One of them was just an aborted take off, not really a "crash". One, a bird strike. And this one, details unknown as of now.)


Number of NON-HAL built Hawks to crash = 106.

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/HAWK/HAWK.htm


In light of this data, would you like to revise your conclusion? That's what anybody with intelectual integrity would do.

 

[Delnavaz B]

what? how did you manage to crash a hawk?

Training, Skills and maintenance

 

[Blue Marlin]

Surely IAF will constitute an inquiry into the event. recommendations and findings are incorporated in form of modifications in hardware and operating practices.

Its an Intermediate Stage Trainer. Unfortunately HJT36 too has a faced difficulties during development and trials (some crashes occurred).

Usually the training for pilots follows this kind of a schedule. Elementary followed by Basic followed by Advanced followed by OCU (Operational Conversion).
View attachment 323246

Here in India, Pilatus PC7 is used as Basic trainer and then BAE Hawks and then to OCUs.
HAL has been pushing forward its case for IJT (somewhere in between Basic and Advanced). development of IJT has been going on for way too long and given how standard AF conduct training, i'm not sure if IAF really wants an IJT.
View attachment 323250

I believe IAF really would want to follow a route as done elsewhere and here IJT may not have a future.

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA Any observations on IJT?

yes there will be an enquiry to why this happened
i think the hjt-36 is a dead project as india is buying more hawks

Number of HAL-built Hawks to crash = 3 (One of them was just an aborted take off, not really a "crash". One, a bird strike. And this one, details unknown as of now.)


Number of NON-HAL built Hawks to crash = 106.

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/HAWK/HAWK.htm


In light of this data, would you like to revise your conclusion? That's what anybody with intelectual integrity would do.

Number of HAL-built Hawks to crash = 3 (One of them was just an aborted take off, not really a "crash". One, a bird strike. And this one, details unknown as of now.)


Number of NON-HAL built Hawks to crash = 106.

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/HAWK/HAWK.htm


In light of this data, would you like to revise your conclusion? That's what anybody with intelectual integrity would do.

no i wont take it back
the first bird to crash

New Delhi, April 30: A brand new Hawk 132 Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) aircraft of the Indian Air Force (IAF) crashed at the Bidar Air Force Station in Karnataka shortly after noon on Tuesday but the pilots escaped unhurt in the incident. The IAF has ordered an enquiry.

The aircraft crashed on the tarmac at about 12.40 pm on Tuesday after it made an abortive bid to takeoff, IAF official sources said.

According to IAF officials, the aircraft lifted off the ground briefly before landing back on the tarmac with a thud even as one of its wings broke. The aircraft suffered extensive damage.

The other nine Hawks have been temporarily grounded, sources said, adding that they would be allowed to fly once it was ascertained that there was nothing wrong with the aircraft.

The HawkAdvanced Jet Trainer which crashed on Tuesday was one of the 10 new aircraft inducted into the IAF just two months ago in the presence of the Indian defence minister, IAF chief and British high commissioner. The aircraft is manufactured by BAe systems, a British company. The total contract signed between the government and BAE systems provides for the procurement of 66 Hawk AJT aircraft out of which 24 will be bought "off the shelf" from BAe while the remaining 42 will be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. after technology transfer from BAe.

But IAF sources confirmed that the IAF had been having a problem with "serviceability" of the aircraft which, in essence, means supply of modern spare parts for the aircraft. IAF sources confirmed that a couple of the Hawks were, in fact, grounded for this reason after induction and said that the matter had been raised with the BAe systems. However, it is too early to say whether this had anything to do with the crash on Tuesday. "Something definitive can be said only once the enquiry report is out," IAF officials said.

According to the IAF, the Hawk AJT was bought since it "is equipped with a state-of-the-art avionics suite and navigation/attack system, a modern glass cockpit and HOTAS (Hands on Throttle and Stick) controls".

The Hawk 132 AJT was expected to expose budding fighter pilots to modern fighter aircraft systems and ensure that they have all the requisite skills to fly a modern multi-role fighter aircraft. However, the crash on Tuesday has raised several uncomfortable questions on why this happened, especially since the aircraft was a new one and had been inducted just two months ago.

In a statement, BAe Systems said, "We are aware of the incident involving a Hawk at Air Force Station, Bidar, and we will fully support the Indian Air Force and Indian ministry of defence in any investigation they undertake."

This is the third IAF aircraft to have crashed this year so far. In the past five years, 61 IAF aircraft have crashed.
http://www.warbirdsofindia.com/Crashes/crdetails.php?crno=2008004


second bird to crash

EW DELHI: Production quality of the country's only aircraft manufacturer, defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL), is once again under the scanner after the crash of a Hawk advanced jet trainer (AJT) last month.

Sources said "quill-shaft failure" in the engine has emerged as the prime reason behind the crash of the twin-seat Hawk AJT, which went down in Odisha while on a training sortie from the Kalaikunda airbase in West Bengal on June 3. Fortunately, the two pilots managed to eject safely.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...r-Hawk-trainer-crash/articleshow/47952421.cms

did you say bird strike?

 

[ayesha.a]

Training, Skills and maintenance

As expected, an "answer" that will please Pakistanis. Of course it is more satisfying to insinuate that India's "Training, skills and maintenance" are inferior, than to objectively analyze what could have caused the crash, or if incapable of such analyses, to wait for expert opinion.

But oh no, every armchair expert from across the border can now be happy with their favored "analysis". "Indians idiots, training inferior, skills lacking, maintainence lacking!" Yay!

 

[Abingdonboy]

Same way as you crashed your sub recently.

On topic : It is said to be the maintenance problem.
HAL does the maintenance and IAF says they do shoddy maintenance.

hawks are made to last

i blame hal since they make it and they maintain it.
i heard they have discrepancies between each hawk and each bird is never the same. same applies to their other projects

It's not very smart to be blaming HAL straight out of the box like this. They have made more than 100 Hawks up to this point with over 75,000 flying hours logged on Indian Hawks and there has been no indication that they have faced structural issues whilst doing so. Crashes happen, the IAF will conduct an inquiry and will learn lessons where required.

A crash soon after take off usually would point to a flame-out from the engine.

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA Any observations on IJT?

HAL has renewed emphasis on developing this type after direct instructions from Parriakar and they have restarted the test flight regime:

 

[ayesha.a]

no i wont take it back
the first bird to crash

New Delhi, April 30: A brand new Hawk 132 Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) aircraft of the Indian Air Force (IAF) crashed at the Bidar Air Force Station in Karnataka shortly after noon on Tuesday but the pilots escaped unhurt in the incident. The IAF has ordered an enquiry.

The aircraft crashed on the tarmac at about 12.40 pm on Tuesday after it made an abortive bid to takeoff, IAF official sources said.

According to IAF officials, the aircraft lifted off the ground briefly before landing back on the tarmac with a thud even as one of its wings broke. The aircraft suffered extensive damage.

Which is precisely what I said - it was an abortive takeoff. Consider it a crash if you will, it doesn't change the fact that the total number of HAL built Hawks to "crash" is 3, and the number of non-HAL built Hawks to crash is 108.

 

[Blue Marlin]

It's not very smart to be blaming HAL straight out of the box like this. They have made more than 100 Hawks up to this point with over 75,000 flying hours logged on Indian Hawks and there has been no indication that they have faced structural issues whilst doing so. Crashes happen, the IAF will conduct an inquiry and will learn lessons where required.

A crash soon after take off usually would point to a flame-out from the engine.



HAL has renewed emphasis on developing this type after direct instructions from Parriakar and they have restarted the test flight regime:

actualy it is even the iaf has doubts in the past.
also a flame out or compressor stall is quiet rare on a rr-adour

so is hal still developing the hjt-36?

 

[Abingdonboy]

actualy it is even the iaf has doubts in the past.

Source?

so is hal still developing the hjt-36?

They had basically abandoned the project a few years ago as the IAF opted for more Hawks but defence minister Parrikar has told them to restart the project and fix the issues primarily to increase the size of India's defence portfolio with an eye on exports.

 

[ayesha.a]

actualy it is even the iaf has doubts in the past.
also a flame out or compressor stall is quiet rare on a rr-adour

so is hal still developing the hjt-36?

From open source info, yes. HAL is still developing the "Sitara".

There is a lot I can criticize HAL for, on that project. It exemplifies the worst of government initiatives in India.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Which is precisely what I said - it was an abortive takeoff. Consider it a crash if you will, it doesn't change the fact that the total number of HAL built Hawks to "crash" is 3, and the number of non-HAL built Hawks to crash is 108.

but why did it crash in the first place? was the runway not long enough, did the pilots freak out,

 

[ayesha.a]

but why did it crash in the first place? was the runway not long enough, did the pilots freak out,

If you want to know, use google and try to find out. And if Google can't help you, then just accept that it is not in the public domain.

That's the nature of most military issues. In India, every such incident leads to a court of enquiry, and heads will roll. (In the military, not in other branches of the govt.)

But if you want to make fun of the IAF or HAL for three crashes in eight years, by all means, go ahead. This being a Pakistani forum, I am sure that you will get plenty of "likes" and "thanks".

(BTW I do have some info about that first crash, but let me see if I can dig up some info that is in the public domain. Whatever the reason was, it wasn't a case of the runway not being long enough, or the pilots "freaking out." That sort of thing doesn't happen in any professional military, be it India or UK or anywhere else.)

 

[Blue Marlin]

Source?


They had basically abandoned the project a few years ago as the IAF opted for more Hawks but defence minister Parrikar has told them to restart the project and fix the issues primarily to increase the size of India's defence portfolio with an eye on exports.

sources are from post #19

as for the dm asking the hal to resum testing is actually a good idea. typically i am against it as it goes against the wishes of the end user in this case iaf. but i see potentail here for a good intermediate trainer here yes its being forced on them, who cares it will be near par on the hawks but being ready for export is a big plus for countries such as vietnam and the philipines

If you want to know, use google and try to find out. And if Google can't help you, then just accept that it is not in the public domain.

That's the nature of most military issues. In India, every such incident leads to a court of enquiry, and heads will roll. (In the military, not in other branches of the govt.)

But if you want to make fun of the IAF or HAL for three crashes in eight years, by all means, go ahead. This being a Pakistani forum, I am sure that you will get plenty of "likes" and "thanks".

(BTW I do have some info about that first crash, but let me see if I can dig up some info that is in the public domain. Whatever the reason was, it wasn't a case of the runway not being long enough, or the pilots "freaking out." That sort of thing doesn't happen in any professional military, be it India or UK or anywhere else.)

Just-inducted Hawk trainer of IAF crashes
TNN | May 1, 2008, 02.36 AM IST
NEW DELHI: IAF lost one of its newly inducted British Hawk AJTs (advanced jet trainers) on Tuesday afternoon when
it crashed soon after taking off from the Bidar airbase in Karnataka.

"Barely seconds after liftoff, there was apparently some technical snag. One pilot ejected, while the other came down with the aircraft. Fortunately, none of them was seriously injured," said an official.

This is the first accident involving Hawks, which — ironically enough — IAF begun inducting in February this year to help train rookie pilots on the intricacies of combat fighter jet flying and to reduce crashes.

Meanwhile, IAF has ordered a court of inquiry into the mishap on Tuesday which led to the British Hawk AJTs (advanced jet trainers), valued around Rs 85 crore, being "completely destroyed", said sources. The fleet has been grounded till the exact reason behind the mishap is ascertained. The two pilots, incidentally, were instructors on a routine flying mission as part of "continuity training".

Hawk-manufacturer BAE Systems, in turn, said it would be "inappropriate to speculate on the cause of the incident" till the official investigation was complete. "We will fully support IAF and the defence ministry in any investigation they undertake," said a BAE Systems official.

There have been over 700 crashes recorded by IAF since 1970, with around 180 pilots losing their lives and scores of civilians being killed on the ground. Almost half of these accidents have been blamed on "human error".

Defence minister A K Antony, in fact, told Parliament on Wednesday that 61 IAF aircraft had crashed during the last five years, with 30 pilots being killed in them.

Under the Rs 8,000 crore AJT project, finalized in March 2004, IAF will receive 66 twin-seater Hawks — 24 in 'flyaway condition' from BAE Systems, with the other 42 to be manufactured indigenously by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd under transfer of technology — in batches by 2011.

Till now, IAF has inducted 10 Hawks. The other 14 are slated to join progressively from the UK by July. Apart from the first 66 Hawks, the defence ministry has also approved the induction of another 40 Hawks, with Navy also getting 17 of them for its own aircraft carrier-based fighter training.

IAF is scheduled to begin its first training course for rookie pilots at Bidar from July. Around 40 pilots are to be trained every year, flying around 160 hours in two semesters, coupled with training on advanced simulators.

The Hawks, incidentally, have been inducted after a mind-boggling delay of 26 years. AJTs will help young pilots to bridge the quantum jump from flying subsonic aircraft like HPT-32 and Kiran trainers to directly handling the supersonic 'highly-unforgiving' MiG-21s, without any transitional training to improve inadequate flying skills, the norm in IAF till now.

In effect, after receiving Stage 1 and 2 training on HPT-32s and Kirans for a year, newly-commissioned pilots will now learn tactical flying, night-flying, air combat manoeuvring and air-to-ground bombing on the Hawks, without being directly made to fly advanced supersonic fighters.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...rainer-of-IAF-crashes/articleshow/3000060.cms

 

[Abingdonboy]

sources are from post #19

Those issues are apparent in the early years of most licenced products as the local entity (in this case HAL) gets up to speed and thus there will be an issue with sourcing spares unless a seperate spares contract is inked with the OEM (which is almost never allowed with Indian licenced procurements).

They have largely been dealt with and HAL's Hawk line is running optimally now and will soon be the sole Hawk production line in the world. In this light BAE are already exploring upgrade possibilities with HAL based on the Hawk to serve export markets.

as for the dm asking the hal to resum testing is actually a good idea. typically i am against it as it goes against the wishes of the end user in this case iaf. but i see potentail here for a good intermediate trainer here yes its being forced on them, who cares it will be near par on the hawks but being ready for export is a big plus for countries such as vietnam and the philipines

I am of the same mind for the exact same resons so kudos mate! Parriakr made the same call on the HTT-40 (forced HAL to start the project instead of allowing the IAF to procure another 120 PC-7s) and the plane has gone from drawing board to flying in less than 2.5 years with an expected FOC in 2018. Exanding the portfolio of products that can be exported is never a bad idea.

 

[ayesha.a]

sources are from post #19

as for the dm asking the hal to resum testing is actually a good idea. typically i am against it as it goes against the wishes of the end user in this case iaf. but i see potentail here for a good intermediate trainer here yes its being forced on them, who cares it will be near par on the hawks but being ready for export is a big plus for countries such as vietnam and the philipines



Just-inducted Hawk trainer of IAF crashes
TNN | May 1, 2008, 02.36 AM IST
NEW DELHI: IAF lost one of its newly inducted British Hawk AJTs (advanced jet trainers) on Tuesday afternoon when
it crashed soon after taking off from the Bidar airbase in Karnataka.

"Barely seconds after liftoff, there was apparently some technical snag. One pilot ejected, while the other came down with the aircraft. Fortunately, none of them was seriously injured," said an official.

This is the first accident involving Hawks, which — ironically enough — IAF begun inducting in February this year to help train rookie pilots on the intricacies of combat fighter jet flying and to reduce crashes.

Meanwhile, IAF has ordered a court of inquiry into the mishap on Tuesday which led to the British Hawk AJTs (advanced jet trainers), valued around Rs 85 crore, being "completely destroyed", said sources. The fleet has been grounded till the exact reason behind the mishap is ascertained. The two pilots, incidentally, were instructors on a routine flying mission as part of "continuity training".

Hawk-manufacturer BAE Systems, in turn, said it would be "inappropriate to speculate on the cause of the incident" till the official investigation was complete. "We will fully support IAF and the defence ministry in any investigation they undertake," said a BAE Systems official.

There have been over 700 crashes recorded by IAF since 1970, with around 180 pilots losing their lives and scores of civilians being killed on the ground. Almost half of these accidents have been blamed on "human error".

Defence minister A K Antony, in fact, told Parliament on Wednesday that 61 IAF aircraft had crashed during the last five years, with 30 pilots being killed in them.

Under the Rs 8,000 crore AJT project, finalized in March 2004, IAF will receive 66 twin-seater Hawks — 24 in 'flyaway condition' from BAE Systems, with the other 42 to be manufactured indigenously by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd under transfer of technology — in batches by 2011.

Till now, IAF has inducted 10 Hawks. The other 14 are slated to join progressively from the UK by July. Apart from the first 66 Hawks, the defence ministry has also approved the induction of another 40 Hawks, with Navy also getting 17 of them for its own aircraft carrier-based fighter training.

IAF is scheduled to begin its first training course for rookie pilots at Bidar from July. Around 40 pilots are to be trained every year, flying around 160 hours in two semesters, coupled with training on advanced simulators.

The Hawks, incidentally, have been inducted after a mind-boggling delay of 26 years. AJTs will help young pilots to bridge the quantum jump from flying subsonic aircraft like HPT-32 and Kiran trainers to directly handling the supersonic 'highly-unforgiving' MiG-21s, without any transitional training to improve inadequate flying skills, the norm in IAF till now.

In effect, after receiving Stage 1 and 2 training on HPT-32s and Kirans for a year, newly-commissioned pilots will now learn tactical flying, night-flying, air combat manoeuvring and air-to-ground bombing on the Hawks, without being directly made to fly advanced supersonic fighters.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...rainer-of-IAF-crashes/articleshow/3000060.cms

Your point? Does the article state that the runway wasn't long enough, or that the pilots "freaked out"? As I said, there was a CoI to look into the matter, which is always the case in the military. I wish the other government bodies were equally self correcting.

The article states the generic "technical snag", which is always what is told to the media, if it isn't "human error".

(You can check out the reportage of any crash in the IAF - it will be either "technical snag" or "human error" - the latter being the term for the pilot effing up.)

Long story short, the IAF is one of the largest operators of the BAE Hawk, and HAL will soon be the largest foreign manufacturer. (The Indian navy also uses the Hawk, and in the next ten years, will be one of the largest users.). If you want to insinuate a quality issue about HAL manufactured Hawks, or if you want to insinuate that the Indian military somehow crashes them more than is warranted, you had damn well support your assertion with facts. For now, looking at the crash record of the Hawks in India and abroad, neither the IAF nor IN nor HAL deserve your invective .