BREAKING NEWS: Benazir Bhutto assassinated

[Karma]

My condolences to the Bhutto's family and the people of Pakistan. May her soul RIP.

 

[BATMAN]

Hi,

Being a defence related web-site, our focus should have been more towards security issue and strategic analysis of the incidence, implementing of security measures, understanding that no security is fool proof and people who don't respect security procedures may pay a heavy price for themselves and others around them. This where our discussion should have been.

So, TANGO, when you ask if she deliberately set herself up for the task, I don't think so. If she was trying to be Gandhi, or M L King, there was never a hint. Well, I would say that she was extremely non-chalant in her attitude towards security---and that is very evident from the statements that she made. Providing security for her had become a thankless job for the government. The security people and other related personale were being openly ridiculed by Benazir and her cohorts on TV interviews, over the radio, through the news media or writing through the news papers.

The PML Q leaders were making statements that she had been away from the country for 8 years----she didnot understand the ground realities---she could not accept the change that had taken place---they were 100 % correct in their analysis.

Nor would anyone say that there is a lack of common sense over here---on one hand you are asking the police for protection and on the other hand you are ridiculing them for putting their lives on the line for you and insulting them and degrading their efforts openly and challenging them that they are incompetent. Where is the common sense. It is ok to bash them a little but not all the time.

There were a lots of security people who died in the bomb blast in karachi. There will be a few over here as well. If one was to view the videos of the rallies, the security breach by ppp workers is normal. Due to lack of discipline on part of the management and the participants, security has taken a back seat at these rallies. Police can only do so much---they can only provide so much security. You just cannot pop half your torso out of the sunroof of the SUV and wave at the people believing everything is fine in today's trouble some time---and specially for someone who already had death threats.

That's very true indeed.
No doubt Killing any person or conspiring to Kill any person are condemable acts but in case of Benazir's assisination, she is to be blamed pretty much her self. She started all the civil unrest and provocation for no clear solid reasons and breached all security and legal cordons.
She really did not understood the conspiracy plot of which she fall victim, she was used by anti-pakistan elements. Just wait and see the media fall out which direction they are going. I'm already sensing some articles were pre-written and using her death as propaganda opportunity or in other words she is assasinated for propaganda purpose.
Her death does not have good consequences for Pakistan in immediate term because lot of civil unrest will follow but in a sense that as she was undoubdtly the most corrupt premier in history of Pakistan and a hypocrate person and she holding the top post in Pakistan can never had a positive ending for Pakistan.
In history of Pakistan many political and military leaders had been assasinated, mysteriously.....
I wish all the best to the following political govt. investigating her assasination.

 

[Flintlock]

I think this is a big blow to Pakistan in all respects. Corrupt or not, she was a leading moderate figure who had the capability to defeat the islamist ideology that is spreading throughout Pakistan
Her death has created an ideological vaccuum which will inevitably be filled by extremists.

Lets get this clear: The army cannot prevent extremist ideologies from taking over the minds of Pakistanis...it is the democrats who are capable of doing that.
A severe blow of this kind is exactly what the taliban/AQ was hoping to achieve.

I think the army should take a step back from the political sphere as soon as possible and allow the civilian govt. to take over. This is the only viable solution that I can think of. Sadly, the exact opposite of this is likely to happen with the army clamping down even more heavily on the civilian population.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I think this is a big blow to Pakistan in all respects. Corrupt or not, she was a leading moderate figure who had the capability to defeat the islamist ideology that is spreading throughout Pakistan
Her death has created an ideological vaccuum which will inevitably be filled by extremists.

Lets get this clear: The army cannot prevent extremist ideologies from taking over the minds of Pakistanis...it is the democrats who are capable of doing that.
A severe blow of this kind is exactly what the taliban/AQ was hoping to achieve.

I think the army should take a step back from the political sphere as soon as possible and allow the civilian govt. to take over. This is the only viable solution that I can think of. Sadly, the exact opposite of this is likely to happen with the army clamping down even more heavily on the civilian population.

The Army has already started making that move under Kiyani. His efforts seem to be focused on reforming and improving the military structure. The army has not "clamped down" on the civilian population, let alone taking it to the next level. You must have thought you were commenting on the Burma thread...

I don't think the assessment that BB could have defeated extremist ideology merely because she was a "leading moderate figure" is correct. There was no inkling that she had reformed her ways or was any less power hungry. Her right hand man, Rehman, had been just as involved in corruption cases as her (co-accused in the Oil for Food Scam I believe). A corrupt BB government would have only increased the conviction of many that it was time for "Islamic Rule" as the only answer to Pakistan's ills, because had this last "bastion of moderation" failed, then who else was there to turn to?

Her death can ignite opposition to AQ like she, with her far from massive popularity, could never have done. Her death also keeps hope alive that "moderate politics" can still deliver Pakistan. Will the PPP step up?

 

[Vinod2070]

Is there a second line of leadership in PPP, who can be acceptable to people?

 

[Flintlock]

The Army has already started making that move under Kiyani. His efforts seem to be focused on reforming and improving the military structure. The army has not "clamped down" on the civilian population, let alone taking it to the next level. You must have thought you were commenting on the Burma thread...

I don't think the assessment that BB could have defeated extremist ideology merely because she was a "leading moderate figure" is correct. There was no inkling that she had reformed her ways or was any less power hungry. Her right hand man, Rehman, had been just as involved in corruption cases as her (co-accused in the Oil for Food Scam I believe). A corrupt BB government would have only increased the conviction of many that it was time for "Islamic Rule" as the only answer to Pakistan's ills, because had this last "bastion of moderation" failed, then who else was there to turn to?

Her death can ignite opposition to AQ like she, with her far from massive popularity, could never have done. Her death also keeps hope alive that "moderate politics" can still deliver Pakistan. Will the PPP step up?

By "clamp down" means restrict civil liberties and prevent a fully democratic govt. from taking over.

Look, civilian govts are always corrupt to some extent unless the public is vigilant enough...thats besides the point. The army in Pakistan is equally, if not more corrupt...but the "iron curtain" prevents corruption from being exposed.
Benazir in power would have definitely been a great tool against the extremist ideology.

People in Pakistan right now are not blaming the taliban or AQ, but as expected, they are blaming the govt. and the establishment. This assassination has infact increased the distrust of the govt. in Pakistan and will definitely give a fillip to the extremists.

With Nawaz Sharif debarred, there is no other leader tall enough to unite Pakistanis against the extremists. Musharraf is the only hope, but he is not very popular.

 

[mujahideen]

With Nawaz Sharif debarred, there is no other leader tall enough to unite Pakistanis against the extremists. Musharraf is the only hope, but he is not very popular.

Well from my point of view I see this as a good thing. I for one am tired of seeing the same old corrupt people. I think it is time for a change.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

One wonders if the contention that she was not a popular is correct.

The fact that she was drawing huge crowds should be an indicator that she was reasonably popular to give forces against her, like the AQ and Taliban, something to worry about.

Corruption with political people is endemic. It is not a Pakistani phenomenon. It is the world over. They have no pension and no gratuity and so they build up their nest egg while the sun shines. To believe that politicians are saints is a misconception, though one cannot rule out the exception, but then such animals are a rarity.

Even if some new leader surfaces, he or she will not be free of corruption.

However, it is not that I wish the world does not have honest leaders, it is just that with politics, corruption is a fait accompli.

Disheartening, but nonetheless, a reality - an uncomfortable reality.

As the saying goes, power corrupts.

 

[mujahideen]

As the saying goes, power corrupts.

Its power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolute.
This to some extent is true. There have been leaders who have had absolute power and still were not corrupt. For example Governor General Quaid-I-Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah, if he wanted he could of been King of Pakistan he had absolute support but he was not corrupt, never took a bribe and never even recommended anyone. Another example is Saheed-E-Millat Prime Minister Laiquat Ali Khan. Right after he was assassinated his last words were "O Allah keep Pakistan safe." And when people checked his pockets for stuff all they found was his watch and one rupee. Even his wife, Begum Rana Laiquat after the death of her husband refused to take money from the Government of Pakistan, she said that no one should be handed money, they should earn it and she did, she worked for the government of Pakistan and got the salary of a regular person. Though most politicians in my opinion are corrupt their are some exception, these exceptional cases are rare and I think we ought to learn from these people and pray to God that such people never leave the world.

 

[BATMAN]

I think this is a big blow to Pakistan in all respects. Corrupt or not, she was a leading moderate figure who had the capability to defeat the islamist ideology that is spreading throughout Pakistan
Her death has created an ideological vaccuum which will inevitably be filled by extremists.

I deologies does not change overnight? 2006 all Pakistani's were moderate and in 2007 Benazir is the only moderate left in whole state?
Don't forget investigations revealed that all sucide attacks of 2007 are foreign organised.
There is no problem of ideological shift it is all about igonarance about Islam.

Lets get this clear: The army cannot prevent extremist ideologies from taking over the minds of Pakistanis...it is the democrats who are capable of doing that.
A severe blow of this kind is exactly what the taliban/AQ was hoping to achieve.

Emergence of Al-Qaeeda is a geographical fall out of US bombing of Afghanistan.
If army is not suitable to fight Al-Qaeed than shouldn't you be informing this to US, who has been indulged in this sin earlier and deeper and India having the privilage to offer US, its manpower and logistical support free of cost for any purpose conditionaly if US agree to over run Pakistan?

I think the army should take a step back from the political sphere as soon as possible and allow the civilian govt. to take over. This is the only viable solution that I can think of. Sadly, the exact opposite of this is likely to happen with the army clamping down even more heavily on the civilian population.

Thank you for your suggestion but no thanks.
It is hard to trust a nation who has historically always conspired against Pakistan, your political campaigns revolve around instigating hate against Pakistan that's how you make your way to your assemblies.
Your think tanks are constantly conspiring to destroy Pakistan, In such circumstances no sane human should trust your words in relevance to Pakistan or Islam.
FYI, Army was never in forward step of politics, they were dragged in by former PM to eradictae corruption and revive economy and that's how they got involved in civilian world on the first place.
Nawaz Sharif vow to free all captured Al-Qaeeda operatives where as Benazir vow to do more vigorous military operation against Al-Qaeeda.
What al-Qaeeda and moderate fans of Benazir does not know is that both leaders already have seat adjustments despite there 180° opposite ideologies which will result all votes of opposite ideologies falling in the same basket.
We reject such political frauds and would like to continue without Benazir or Nawaz Sharif.
Army has to stop the root cause which is civil unrest and media presenting armed terrorists as heroes and acting as an extension of Al-Qaeeda.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Benazir in power would have definitely been a great tool against the extremist ideology.

People in Pakistan right now are not blaming the taliban or AQ, but as expected, they are blaming the govt. and the establishment. This assassination has infact increased the distrust of the govt. in Pakistan and will definitely give a fillip to the extremists.

With Nawaz Sharif debarred, there is no other leader tall enough to unite Pakistanis against the extremists. Musharraf is the only hope, but he is not very popular.

That is one opinion. AQ has only recently claimed the assassination. We will have to wait and see how Pakistanis react to that bit of news. It is premature to suggest that the extremists will get a fillip from this.

I still fail to see how a BB, debarred from holding the PM's office, and with every analyst and commentator (pro and anti govt. alike) reporting a hung parliament, could "unite the nation". She would not have had either authority or stature in that scenario to affect much change.

Corruption may be intrinsic to any political process, but behind the strength and popularity of a lot of Islamist movements lies a disaffection with the failures of the traditional political process and parties. Pakistan is not there yet, the MMA's expected marginalization by the electorate, after their one time surge last time around, is proof of that.

Salim:

The questions over BB's popularity are genuine. Her polling numbers, if one were to put any stock in them, indicated that she was polling in the high twenties, low thirties nationwide - lower than Nawas Sharif at some points. Also consider my reply to SA above, that most Pakistani political analysts were expecting a hung parliament, given a free and fair election, that would not be synonymous with "immense popularity".

Her being targeted by extremists is no indication of her popularity either - she was widely considered an American stooge, as was Musharraf, and was expected to be "Selected" in the elections by Musharraf (US) to fight the WoT.

 

[Flintlock]

I deologies does not change overnight? 2006 all Pakistani's were moderate and in 2007 Benazir is the only moderate left in whole state?
Don't forget investigations revealed that all sucide attacks of 2007 are foreign organised.
There is no problem of ideological shift it is all about igonarance about Islam.

Look, people need leaders. Without leaders, people's minds are easily changed by anyone who shouts loudly enough. This is a sad reality of the society of the subcontinent.

No foreigner can organize attacks of this scale and frequency without support from within Pakistan. It is very hard to believe that all Pakistanis are the victims of foreign terrorists.
Even in the relatively fewer blasts occuring in India, there is always a degree of local support towards the perpetrators.

Emergence of Al-Qaeeda is a geographical fall out of US bombing of Afghanistan.
If army is not suitable to fight Al-Qaeed than shouldn't you be informing this to US, who has been indulged in this sin earlier and deeper and India having the privilage to offer US, its manpower and logistical support free of cost for any purpose conditionaly if US agree to over run Pakistan?

The army is sufficient to fight an organized force like the Taliban on the frontiers.

Against an ideological force like Al Qaida, you need a competing ideology. This is a battle for minds, and politicians are the experts at that kind of battle.

Thank you for your suggestion but no thanks.
It is hard to trust a nation who has historically always conspired against Pakistan, your political campaigns revolve around instigating hate against Pakistan that's how you make your way to your assemblies.
Your think tanks are constantly conspiring to destroy Pakistan, In such circumstances no sane human should trust your words in relevance to Pakistan or Islam.

Jeez, I don't represent the govt. of India or any political party, but I'm a private citizen giving my own views. Try to judge my comments on their own merit rather than drag my country of origin into it.

FYI, Army was never in forward step of politics, they were dragged in by former PM to eradictae corruption and revive economy and that's how they got involved in civilian world on the first place.

I am very skeptical about the ability of the army to stop corruption. At max, they can hide corruption.
However, whether the army reduced corruption or not is besides the point.
There is one thing no army can do: win over the people. You need popular leaders for that. Without popular leaders, people look for leaders elsewhere, and in this case, they find them in the extremists.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

AM

I would remind you that the polling analyst go horribly wrong.

It is happening in India ever since the India Shining days!

I have stopped believing in such bogus analysis that only helps in getting some unemployed some jobs, money to run their hearth and homes and pretend they are the modern soothsayers!

Like soothsayers, they are equally bogus and are given equally the importance that these type of crystal gazers get!

Well BB is a stooge, Musharraf is a stooge and yet they seem to be holding the sway as does NS. He is taken to be a stooge because he disclaimed knowledge of Kargil.

If they are all stooges, then who are the real leaders?

And how is that these stooges are the ones who will head Pakistan.

It is all very easy to call people stooges who are actually realists and beyond the dreams that religion spins like it does the terrorists!

It is time to take stock with reality and in the Realpolitik paradigm.

Emotions, that some are displaying (not you), has no place!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Salim,

You raise valid points. I shall heed my own advice and allow the events in the coming days to perhaps shed better light on the extent of loyalty she commanded.

 

[zpak]

From Allah we have come from and to him we have to return. My deepest condolences to my fellow pakistanis. Regardless of how you felt about her, this was not the way for her to go. Hopefully this will open the eyes of Pakistanis to the reality that the war on terror is our war. A war that we need to win. May Allah protect Pakistan and its people.