Brazilian aviation experts recommended J11B /SU27

[ptldM3]

TEJAS Mk1 is around the same size of the JF-17, and does not have the high level of composites,

Nearly the entire airframe of the Tejas is made up of composites, mostly carbon based.

radar absorbent material,

Really, gain?

and does not incorporate powerful avionics.

The fact that you casually throw around the phrase powerful avionics really arouses my suspicion that you are throwing around vague phrases with no meaning in order avoid having to get in depth with factual reality. Now please explain to everyone what these ‘powerful‘ avionics are‘. The fact is, most aspects of avionics are classified. The little that we know about avionics such as radar range, radar coverage, ect only give us a base knowledge and does not tell us how an aircraft will perform in an actual conflict.

There is a reason that the MKI never engages in exercises with its radar on, and a reason an MKI crew chief declined to give any information about the MKI’s radar when asked by media.

Back to the phrase powerful. I really don’t even know what you mean by that. Most avionics systems, at least the good ones work by working smarter not hard. Why use spot jamming when instead you can send back false frequencies?

Does more TR modules or higher peak power mean that a radar is more powerful? According to the layman yes. The layman will be mesmerized by TR modules but can not account for or know the importance of frequency changes, resolution, or scanning. The layman simply think more is better, thus it is more powerful.

The MKI is not known to have a high level of composites and radar absorbent material. The J-11B, on the other hand, uses enough radar absorbent material that it has lowered its original RCS by a factor of 5, and enough composites that it lowered its original mass by 700 kg, making it arguably the lightest Flanker type airframe.

Surly, I hope you know that avionics makes a big in weight and I mean a very big difference. Multi-role aircraft are always heavier because they have that much more avionics. Similarly, avionics usually get lighter as avionics mature. The J-11 being lighter could simple be the result of having less gizmos and gadgets and or having lighter/smaller avionics.

And while we are on the talk of composites I should also mention that alloys are often referred to as composites. Using a higher percentage of lighter allows will decrease weight and do nothing for RCS.

Let me ask you; just how do you decrease an airframe's weight by 700 kg without having to reduce the size and payload, if you don't use composites? And these were reiterated by military insiders w.

I take so called ‘military insiders’ about as serious as Bobo the clown. And I just answered that question. Smaller/lighter avionics or less avionics will contribute significantly to weight, as will lighter allows insider the airframe.

Composites do not reflect radar waves as well as pure metal. Composites are a great way of lowering RCS without major structural changes and many aircraft employ this.

Of course, except how many aircraft fly around in bare sheet metal?

How do you define "significant"? Lowering the RCS by a factor of five, is that significant? Why is Russia's Su-35S so much low observable than the Su-27? Is it because of redesigning? Structural changes?

The SU-35 RCS reduction is mostly from the front and there is not just one method. Supposedly the SU-35 does utilize RAM but only in the inlets and supposedly on the compressor blades (if true this has to be some pretty damn good RAM to withstand the heat as well as pealing). The SU-35 also has a treated canopy, this makes a big difference. Other things such as removing the air brake should help reduce RCS.

The MKI is not the only plane that is capable of jamming. In a situation when the enemy has the same abilities as you, how exactly will the MKI hold up when it is seriously impeded in one area? The J-11B (or any other aircraft for that matter) has all the gadgets you mentioned. The MKI's radar will not achieve a first lock if the J-11B is stealthier than the MKI, especially when the J-11B is receiving a large AESA radar.

If the enemy would have the same abilities than it would turn into a turning fight.

Does your Su-30MKI incorporate F-16-style RCS, radar absorbent material, 40% composites, AESA radar, fully integrated electronics, DSI?

The Super 30 MKI will be much improved over the original MKI and what is with the DSI nonsense? What is with all the Chinese constantly boasting about DSI? Do you have DSI? No and we do not want it because it degrades performance. Let me for a moment use your reasoning and tactics. Does the J-10 have 2 engines? Do you see how silly that sounds?

As for intergraded avionics, please do explain to everyone what that means, and if it is what I think it means than yes the MKI does have it.

 

[ptldM3]

The airframe design was already licensed, and the fact that the J-11B is indigenous negates the ban on exports.

So would you like to pull up the contract claws and show everyone where it says so? The J-11 is still a Flanker airframe. This would be like Egypt getting the right to produce the JF-17 only to turn around and tell the Chinese to go and stick it because they claim they produced their own avionics, so now they produce as many airframes as they want without paying royalities and import them to whoever.

I know you will say that that is fine just for the sake of justifying the J-11 but in reality if that happened to the JF-17 or J-10 you would not say that and you know it.

 

[S10]

Can China export J-11B without Russia's approval? Certainly we can. Russians bitched about J-11 for nearly a decade now, and we just keep on producing. The only question remaining is whether it will actually risk military cooperation with Russia to export the plane, which I do not believe so.

I suspect that J-11B, J-15 and J-16 will be the last variants in the J-11 series. After that, production will be shut down for new generation of strike aircrafts.

 

[Ammyy]

Can China export J-11B without Russia's approval? Certainly we can. Russians bitched about J-11 for nearly a decade now, and we just keep on producing. The only question remaining is whether it will actually risk military cooperation with Russia to export the plane, which I do not believe so.

I suspect that J-11B, J-15 and J-16 will be the last variants in the J-11 series. After that, production will be shut down for new generation of strike aircrafts.

Before this claim China still have to prove that they are operating these planes with their own engine ..cause JF17 still using Russian engine (Only Chinese fighter came infront of public)

 

[DrSomnath999]

Does your Su-30MKI incorporate F-16-style RCS, radar absorbent material, 40% composites, AESA radar, fully integrated electronics, DSI?

LOOOLZZ u changed from jf 17 to f16 then what next j20 & i was mentioning about manuverabilty not rest

F-16-style RCS,radar absorbent material, 40% composites, AESA

no but it wouild improve after RECENT SUPER Su 30 mki upgrade by adding RAM /composites just wait yes AESA would be installed also

Fully integrated electronics

it already has cutting edge french israeli avionics & ECms

DSI?

no but radar blocker may be used but DSI has no role in stealt it has role in performance only ok 1 point advantage given to
JF 17

 

[April.lyrics]

Before this claim China still have to prove that they are operating these planes with their own engine ..cause JF17 still using Russian engine (Only Chinese fighter came infront of public)

er....for the engine part,i think there is no need to talk about since the recent pics of J16 (or J11B,i'm not sure.same outlook) indicating it is equiped with WS-10.

 

[April.lyrics]

Before this claim China still have to prove that they are operating these planes with their own engine ..cause JF17 still using Russian engine (Only Chinese fighter came infront of public)

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/152172-j-10b-information.html

http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_1101/27_165469_a8cb1364bfcf1e5.jpg

http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_1104/27_67850_f0f644ff30eacfe.jpg

 

[conworldus]

Given the ineptitude of Shenyang, they are going to keep producing J-11 variants like they are doing with J-8. These guys are just next to useless without having to copy some Russian stuff I hate to say.

More resources should go to Chengdu and Xifei which are both producing truly indigenous aircrafts. Shenyang should be left to survive on its own. Make an aircraft that's market worthy or disappear.

Can China export J-11B without Russia's approval? Certainly we can. Russians bitched about J-11 for nearly a decade now, and we just keep on producing. The only question remaining is whether it will actually risk military cooperation with Russia to export the plane, which I do not believe so.

I suspect that J-11B, J-15 and J-16 will be the last variants in the J-11 series. After that, production will be shut down for new generation of strike aircrafts.

 

[DelhiDareDevil]

what happen to rafale for Brazil air force..

 

[marshall]

Brazilian aviation report , reported by Russian and published by Chinese ..... Really a nice criteria

Fyi, this is exactly how "mainstream" media is able to spread unverified news by propagating reports as lower-tier media outlets simply repeat ad nauseum such unverified reports as fact without any investigation or basic verification of facts. We must choose our news sources carefully nowadays and maybe become investigative reporters ourselves.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Dont make a fool of urself !!!

Now now lad, you folks should really check themselves before accusing others.
OF all the Indians I have come across most have a limited or incorrect knowledge of the JF-17.

Tejas is mostly made up of composites, for info, check other threads about tejas fighter here !!!

Since this reply was not to me, i wont be debating the Tejas with you.
But do understand that all aircraft have composites to some degree, only sub-4th gen if that will have all metal airframes.

And everyone knoe JF 17 dont have composites at all, its fully made up of iron n aluminium as every1 knows here , and tejas fly by wire onboard system is no match for JF 17 C programmed system !!!

HA!

First of all, JF-17 does use composites, in fact the first few prototypes used 8% composites, of course the figure increased as we got to later prototypes and the production model. I suggest you go and revise that again.

And as for the software and it's programming language. I'm not sure how you can come to such a conclusion, C++ is no disadvantage, it's just that we happened to have a lot of talent for C++ in Pakistan, so it made sense to use C++. The F-35 also uses C++.

And Whatever be the RCS,

For JF-17... should be around 1m2, current JFT has lower RCS than PAF's F-16s.

when J 11B carries weapons under its belt, its RCS will naturally increase, and radar absorbent material are of no use in the war scenario !!!

Yes, but by this measure any 4/4.5 gen fighter with any sort of RCS reduction is useless.
J-11B with weapons and tanks... the RCS increases.. sure got it, BUT the RCS reduction buys you valuable time before detection. That is an undeniable fact.

U guys have sold JF 17 to them, while refusing to use them urself !!
This shows ur hypocricy level , and stop claiming JF 17 is best over tejas or mki !!!

PLAAF simply doesn't need JF-17 Block I, but whose to say they wont go for Block II/III?
Plus I can see why right now... they have J-11A/B, Su-27/30MKK and MK2, J-10A/B all for their 4th gen lot.
They may get a more advanced block of JF-17 with a Chinese engine.

So Stop making a fool of urself !!!

You really should be careful with adding this kind shyt to your posts, for it seems you are in no position to criticize.

I suggest you don't talk about things you don't know

 

[Skull and Bones]

^^^

Application area of Composites matters the most, some deliberately use composites to reduce RCS, Typhoon or Rafale for that matter, even Tejas has major application of composites to reduce its frontal RCS. And some use composites to reduce wear and tear or moving parts.

Since these infos are classified, better lets not talk about use of composites.

 

[Jungibaaz]

^^^

Application area of Composites matters the most, some deliberately use composites to reduce RCS, Typhoon or Rafale for that matter, even Tejas has major application of composites to reduce its frontal RCS. And some use composites to reduce wear and tear or moving parts.

That's correct, it's all depending on he need I guess. But there are no fighters in our day and age that don't use some sort of composites somewhere.

Since these infos are classified, better lets not talk about use of composites.

I thought info about the Tejas was out there.
There's got to be more to it though. I assume your sources have told you a lot more.

regards,

 

[Akasa]

Dont make a fool of urself !!!
Tejas is mostly made up of composites, for info, check other threads about tejas fighter here !!!
And everyone knoe JF 17 dont have composites at all, its fully made up of iron n aluminium as every1 knows here , and tejas fly by wire onboard system is no match for JF 17 C programmed system !!!
And Whatever be the RCS , when J 11B carries weapons under its belt, its RCS will naturally increase, and radar absorbent material are of no use in the war scenario !!!
And DONT CONSIDER A AIRCRAFT WHICH HAVENT MADE A FLIGHT YET !!!
U guys have sold JF 17 to them, while refusing to use them urself !!
This shows ur hypocricy level , and stop claiming JF 17 is best over tejas or mki!!!

JF-17 has no composites? You need to do something called researching, because the JF-17 currently has 8% composites, while the Blk2, which has flown already according to military insiders, will incorporate 40% composites. And what makes the Tejas FBW superior tot he JF-17 one? The level of programming depends on the code, not the language in which the code is written.

---------- Post added at 10:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 AM ----------

Without an stable airframe, u cant put equipments in place !!!
An aircraft design in itself is 50% of the job done !!!
So Stop making a fool of urself !!!
U cant export without the permission of russia !!!

The J-11B's airframe is produced by China. It has been upgraded to make it eight times stealthier than the Su-30MKI and 700 kg lighter. So yes, it can be exported, as proven by PN's evaluation of the J-11B, even though they did not buy it due to the JF-17.

 

[Akasa]

Nearly the entire airframe of the Tejas is made up of composites, mostly carbon based.

45% is not "entire".

The fact that you casually throw around the phrase powerful avionics really arouses my suspicion that you are throwing around vague phrases with no meaning in order avoid having to get in depth with factual reality. Now please explain to everyone what these ‘powerful‘ avionics are‘. The fact is, most aspects of avionics are classified. The little that we know about avionics such as radar range, radar coverage, ect only give us a base knowledge and does not tell us how an aircraft will perform in an actual conflict.

There is a reason that the MKI never engages in exercises with its radar on, and a reason an MKI crew chief declined to give any information about the MKI’s radar when asked by media.

Back to the phrase powerful. I really don’t even know what you mean by that. Most avionics systems, at least the good ones work by working smarter not hard. Why use spot jamming when instead you can send back false frequencies?

Does more TR modules or higher peak power mean that a radar is more powerful? According to the layman yes. The layman will be mesmerized by TR modules but can not account for or know the importance of frequency changes, resolution, or scanning. The layman simply think more is better, thus it is more powerful.

The J-11B uses a larger variant of the J-10B's radar. The J-10B's radar uses 1200 T/R modules, which is more than the largest variant of the Zhuk-AE. And it is not even known if the Su-30MKI will use the largest variant. The J-11B will also utilize a swashplate which might give it more tracking angle. Both aircraft are twin engined; power output should not be a problem for both aircraft.

Surly, I hope you know that avionics makes a big in weight and I mean a very big difference. Multi-role aircraft are always heavier because they have that much more avionics. Similarly, avionics usually get lighter as avionics mature. The J-11 being lighter could simple be the result of having less gizmos and gadgets and or having lighter/smaller avionics.

And while we are on the talk of composites I should also mention that alloys are often referred to as composites. Using a higher percentage of lighter allows will decrease weight and do nothing for RCS.

Your logic doesn't make sense. Why would a J-11B have less "gizmos" than the original J-11? Miniaturization might been applied, but having less ability goes against the very purpose of building it.

The J-11B uses carbon-fiber composites.

The SU-35 RCS reduction is mostly from the front and there is not just one method. Supposedly the SU-35 does utilize RAM but only in the inlets and supposedly on the compressor blades (if true this has to be some pretty damn good RAM to withstand the heat as well as pealing). The SU-35 also has a treated canopy, this makes a big difference. Other things such as removing the air brake should help reduce RCS.

Then there you go. Exactly the same upgrades on J-11B, no need for lighter "gizmos".

If the enemy would have the same abilities than it would turn into a turning fight.

Unless on radar's jamming resistance is somehow more powerful.











The Super 30 MKI will be much improved over the original MKI and what is with the DSI nonsense? What is with all the Chinese constantly boasting about DSI? Do you have DSI? No and we do not want it because it degrades performance. Let me for a moment use your reasoning and tactics. Does the J-10 have 2 engines? Do you see how silly that sounds?

As for intergraded avionics, please do explain to everyone what that means, and if it is what I think it means than yes the MKI does have it.[/QUOTE]

The Su-30MKI upgrades, as I know it, are focused on the AESA radar. The DSI aside from covering the blades also removes the need for ramps which increase RCS. Having a variable DSI does not hamper the performance of the aircraft. The integrated electronics means that the aircraft has some level of automation and that the pilot has greater freedom to concentrate on other tasks. One way of demonstrating this is having one cockpit for a fighter that can have multiple functions, like the F-16 and JAS-39 Gripen NG.