BLA terrorists bomb Jinnah's Ziarat residency museum.

[Secur]

I'm glad you mentioned their valhalla, their kingdom - much freedom and and many "Rights" there -- but it also tells you a great deal about their psychology - they like to have their "limits/Hadd" clearly delineated - some amongst us are convinced that we can be more influential than their Mullahs and sheiks.

I call it ' utopia ' of the delusional masses , anyways .

Yeah , much freedom and many rights there , if you want to enjoy more , then there's always the King Fahd Causeway for you leading to Bahrain which leads to total freedom . Nirvana I believe , @Dillinger , you call it ?

The question is just why do they like to have these limits delineated ? We cant be , sure we dont have the opiate of the masses as Karl Marx puts it .

 

[SQ8]

If that's true then that's one sinister game plan.

But if the Pakistani people know this then how can they still allow such meddling to continue? Even we have certain Saudi funds pouring in but they haven't tried to meddle like that with us despite quite a large muslim citizenry?

The Pakistani people dont know the right end of original hair to transplant.. You expect too much out of them.
The Saudi's have different ideas for different population.. you may see the effect of their funds when fatwa's against the many Shrine's in India start popping up.

 

[Secur]

Behavior arises from thought - Don't please ever be confused by this -- You must first have the thought, then the behavior based on that thought

Precisely .

Target the ones who's behavior hasn't yet arisen from the thought , we all have some .

 

[Dillinger]

I call it ' utopia ' of the delusional masses , anyways .

Yeah , much freedom and many rights there , if you want to enjoy more , then there's always the King Fahd Causeway for you leading to Bahrain which leads to total freedom . Nirvana I believe , @Dillinger , you call it ?

The question is just why do they like to have these limits delineated ? We cant be , sure we dont have the opiate of the masses as Karl Marx puts it .

I like Saudis man..polite and all..ain't going anywhere near KSA though.

Maybe its time we did sort out our issues so that the guns can be turned on some more "deserving" people.

Honestly, in moments of anger I have supported the idea that India should support insurgencies in Pakistan as a method of imposing a cost on hosting and abetting the likes of the LeT. But when groups like the LeJ go after girls trying to get an honest and good education then one has to reassess such stands. We can always keep bleeding together..a combined population of 1.4 billion can bleed a lot indeed before it runs dry.

 

[muse]

You may have read about "self radicalized" in the media - an idiot notion -- See such individuals are radicalized not by themselves but by the ideas they adopt, from there it is a decision, most commonly this decision arises from estrangement, from alienation, to conscience - the nutters actually think they are acting out of conscience

 

[Dillinger]

The Pakistani people dont know the right end of original hair to transplant.. You expect too much out of them.
The Saudi's have different ideas for different population.. you may see the effect of their funds when fatwa's against the many Shrine's in India start popping up.

Hmmm. well we did have a few deobandis demand that we label the Ahmadis as non-muslims..seems like our geographical distance and economy have shielded us.

Umm. you, @Secur, @Hyperion and @Meengla are Pakistanis too..if you can see it then how difficult can it be to show it to others?

 

[Yeti]

Hmmm. well we did have a few deobandis demand that we label the Ahmadis as non-muslims..seems like our geographical distance and economy have shielded us.

Umm. you, @Secur, @Hyperion and @Meengla are Pakistanis too..if you can see it then how difficult can it be to show it to others?

In Hindustan Ahmadis are classed as being muslim as per Indian law but they are not allowed to sit on the All India Muslim Personal Law Board.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

How would each and every ' Mehsud ' family be connected to Taliban in the first place ?

What do you understand by the term ' suspected militants ' ? The people who have been involved either in suspicious activities , have been providing refuge and assistance to the militants and were/have been in contact with them and those reported by the militants under custody . Use every single goddamn technology we have available , monitor the telecommunications sources , use the cameras , the NADRA database , the governmental records , the satellites , the UAV's and the HUMINT , every single thing to get to such people . When apprehended , interrogate them , probe them and make sure to every possible extent that they indeed are militants and if they found guilty , the world shouldn't know that they existed in the first place , leave alone the courts here . FYI , torture isn't really a way of interrogation and is rarely effective if the next thing you are planning to ask me is that .

Now for the interactions part , maybe I have , maybe I haven't , I do not confirm the ethnicity/race/tribe of the people I meet in my life , I am no expert in recognizing and distinguishing from others . But the thing to note here is that ' radicalized thought here isn't the problem , the behavior is ' . Otherwise , there are enough people in my vicinity who can be apprehended because of extremist views on the religion .

If you are going to arrest those who were providing refuge and assistance to militants and were having contacts with them....then you have to arrest whole mehsud tribe.
And let me tell you another thing, ISI doesnt need janjal like concentration camps....they have already picked up thousands of individuals in FATA swat and hundreds in Balochistan and they have made it sure that they never existed.

 

[Meengla]

Again, bringing Arabs/Wahabbism into this debate is simply a cop-out! The Muslims of the Sub Continent are uniquely too emotional, too illiterate, too confused about their identities. The vast majority of Pakistanis live in Sindh/Punjab so that makes then natural allies of north Indians--with home much is shared. And yet that doesn't translate into a US-Canada relations. I am not going to absolve the Indian political class though..but I digress

Pakistan was a very close ally of the Arabs AND Iran right till the late 70's. Indeed, ZAB skillfully guided Pakistani foreign policy between them--and despite the occasional Shia-Sunni riots--Pakistan remained relatively peaceful. So this Iran vs KSA competing interests theory inside Pakistan needs some serious revisit--unless we are going to blame the others again.

In my opinion the rot started with Zia ul Haq. But that's for another topic....

 

[SQ8]

Hmmm. well we did have a few deobandis demand that we label the Ahmadis as non-muslims..seems like our geographical distance and economy have shielded us.

Umm. you, @<u><a href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/member.php?u=132526" target="_blank">Secur</a></u>, @<u><a href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/member.php?u=139959" target="_blank">Hyperion</a></u> and @<u><a href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/member.php?u=18017" target="_blank">Meengla</a></u> are Pakistanis too..if you can see it then how difficult can it be to show it to others?

It took a generation to die .. to finally end a large section of racism in the US.. so the same has to be focused on the generation here. It simply has to be enforced by force and those opposing them given all help necessary. I may come up with an alternative narrative, believe in a better interpretation of my religion.. But in the end.. the effect on everyone will not be equal.. and you will always have people who are the equivalent of my favorite video which I like to spam everywhere.

Now imagine, someone of this intellect being convinced that what he understands of those words is the ONLY narrative possible and the only correct one. What if someone was enforced that the acceleration of gravity is 9.8 m/s2 holds true for every point in space?
To them it would not matter if someone goes around and shows that gravity is dependent on distance and force.. or that it is different for every point in space. Because for them the textbook narrative that g= 9.8 m/s2 is unshakable belief.
They would not believe that you will be weightless in space, and any such claims will be dismissed as going against the "practical" demonstration of throwing a stone by them since right there to their eyes they see it as 9.8m/s2. If you argue using equations and models then they will bring a thousand school text books that state g=9.8m/s2.. because that is the only information given in the school textbooks.. which will not show how it is derived nor how it came to be. Hence to these individuals, whatever the school textbook says is the only narrative on g and for all that matters.. g=9.8m/s2.

Apply the analogy to trying to counter this ideology that is being propagated as "true" Islam.. and I may have given you n inkling of the the problem that lies here.

 

[Secur]

Yaara..Just one question..what do you think will happen when you start these camps..will you be able to manage them..10 to 1 odds are that groups like LeJ will clap with glee..more recruits for them. The myth that people like Zarvan propagate will become true. The taliban will melt into the scenery like they always do or hop the border...hell even military combing ops only catch them when they decide to entrench themselves..but despite taking casualties and hepters and vipers in the sky they melt away..this is too large a net..too large and with too may gaps to catch such insurgents.

There is one way yaara..the groups which are targeting you have ONE weapon..ONE single weapon..the sure knowledge that for various reasons the powers that be in Pakistan, whether that be Nawaz or the GHQ, cannot disown every single such outfit..they will always keep one or two for their own purposes. They know this and they know that while the targets of these groups may be different their shared and common ideology will ensure the survival of their cause even IF one particular group is wiped out in its entirety. Take away this singular and sordid pillar and they will collapse..it is not courage which makes them fight your soldiers..it is brain washing..a man who loves no life is not fighting with courage..courage is born from having first known fear..you brain wash a fellow to believe that this life isn't real anyway and jannat awaits then he will fight without need of courage but rather be sustained by that ideology. Break that ideology though and they will collapse like a deck of cards in front of a strong gust.

We aren't talking about the entire populations of ' Jews ' here , Dillinger . Cant we manage a thousands suspected militants at a facility in a given time ? Those odds , my dear friend , are true even today . It cant get worse than this , because their propaganda about the army and other stuff is widely believed for one . The recruits for reaching ' the Heaven ' are no less in number for it to increase may cause any ' further harm ' . Remember it takes a single suicide bomber to kill 10's of people . They sure cant mobilize the whole Pakistani nation just because we have sort of a Guantanamo bay facility for eradicating terrorism and its very roots . The Taliban hop the border the porous border today when they are in danger or being cornered by the forces , anyways . What difference is this particular one going to make then ?

I said it long time ago that this is the ' war of ideologies ' . Nothing more , nothing less . The state of Pakistan has made mistakes but there's always a way out of this . Why do we do this , Dillinger ? I am sure you already know the history of Pakistan-Afghanistan relations and the anti-Pakistan activity from there and the biggest blunder done by the Commander of the Faithfuls in the 80's . Afghanistan has been like this for the last 200 years and to be polite - its a journey into the land of insanity , I do not expect the Afghans to mend their ways and instead of supporting factions and warlords , support their country which even lacks coherence as a nation , they just dont know what economic progression , Central Govt and state is least of all , work for it . Its a curse being a neighbor to that country . We have had to make hard choices , there's no denial but the thing is ' its not too late to negotiate with other factions in that country ' . The thing is we have to do something , because sooner or later , that country is going into drift into civil war . Maybe , we can find a middle ground taking no sides this time . The friendship with the ' good Taliban ' is not helping .

You are right about the ' ideology ' part .

Take away this singular and sordid pillar and they will collapse..it is not courage which makes them fight your soldiers..it is brain washing..a man who loves no life is not fighting with courage..courage is born from having first known fear..you brain wash a fellow to believe that this life isn't real anyway and jannat awaits then he will fight without need of courage but rather be sustained by that ideology. Break that ideology though and they will collapse like a deck of cards in front of a strong gust.


Well put .

 

[Kompromat]

@Yeti

Its not for Indian law to define the religious matters of Muslims as its a secular state. Its upto Muslim only to define their ways of practice and beliefs,including the Ahmadiya question.

State can define them as a Muslim group,that doesn't mean Muslims will accept that as the state is secular and has no business with the religious matters.


Now back to topic!

 

[SQ8]

and jannat awaits then[/B] he will fight without need of courage but rather be sustained by that ideology. Break that ideology though and they will collapse like a deck of cards in front of a strong gust.
[/I]
.

What was the news article about strange painful noises of pain coming from a Taliban Commanders grave??
Psyops 101.

 

[Yeti]

@Yeti

Its not for Indian law to define the religious matters of Muslims as its a secular state. Its upto Muslim only to define their ways of practice and beliefs,including the Ahmadiya question.

State can define them as a Muslim group,that doesn't mean Muslims will accept that as the state is secular and has no business with the religious matters.


Now back to topic!

I actually agree with you on this one and I understand the reasons why they are not classed as Muslims

 

[Secur]

I like Saudis man..polite and all..ain't going anywhere near KSA though.

Maybe its time we did sort out our issues so that the guns can be turned on some more "deserving" people.

Sure , why not ? I see nothing wrong with a common Saudi . They have disowned this whole thing a long time ago I told you earlier . Just visit the Kingdom though .

Really , Dillinger ? You ever considered it after knowing what wonders the ' Tamil ' part has / is doing ? Even I know that particular part of your history and I see the residual effects even today in the Indian section .

What was the news article about strange painful noises of pain coming from a Taliban Commanders grave??
Psyops 101.

I better believe in the ' heavenly scent ' and the fresh body when his grave was dug open , sir

If you know what I mean .