Fatima Jinnah stood firm against dictatorship, says prime minister

[Goritoes]

Perhaps a closet-supporter.
I don't know why my praise for Ayub's era was so wrong? There is a context to my support for Ayub! The context is the chaos and the fragility of the nascent state of Pakistan between 1951-1958. Yes, there was the American help to Ayub, but Americans also helped Zia and Musharraf but they just couldn't capitalize on that help while Ayub did.
And I don't shed tears over Bangladesh. It was already written in 1948. That marriage was not bound to happen but I wished the divorce was peaceful.
Anyway, it is hypocritical of PDF members to criticize Ayub for the 1965 war when that war has been celebrated on PDF forever--until Imran Khan planted a different narrative!

I don't think he is closet supporter but he can answer it better, but just because someone think Ayub was not a great Leader doesn't make them IK supporters, I also Think Ayun was a cunt for propagating against Fatima Jinnah, just because his era saw some progress doesn't make him a good leader or rightful leader. Ayub was the man who put Pakistan on the path of destruction and Military mafia started, if Fatima Jinnah won we would be in far better situation today, maybe at that time things won't look good but eventually if the democratic system was given time and no interference from military happens we would not be in a mess like this.
1965 war and most educated Pakistani's neither celebrate nor say we lost, it was a stalemate and whether Ayub was brave or coward doesn't change the fact that we tried to take back Kashmir and ended up saving Lahore, of course the Kashmiri's and their double cross has to be highlighted here too.
As for BD, I agree it would've happen one way or another but It would be much better if it happens peacefully, but even in that mess our brave Army was ones who F'd things up badly.

 

[TheSolution]

Ayub Khan was one of the best dictators we had though...

I ultimately support a one-party system like China though personally but in Pakistan it would become some kind of monarchy of elites who are incompetent rather than strict selection of competent individuals

 

[Meengla]

Ayub Khan was one of the best dictators we had though...

I ultimately support a one-party system like China though personally but in Pakistan it would become some kind of monarchy of elites who are incompetent rather than strict selection of competent individuals

Correct.
You may find my posts here with something like 'But who will bell the cat?!' multiple times. You see: Both the civilians and the military are cut from the same cloth and now, while the politicians and journalists had long been discredited, even the military and the judiciary are discredited. What happens to a society in that State? Afghanistan. Somalia. Or some similar countries. But in case of Pakistan, as I have observed, there ARE still credible journalists even with their personal biases. In case of Pakistan, there IS still one force, the military, which can use its 'Danda' to keep some semblance of order. You remove that, and you would cause the end of 'Pakistan'. That was Hameed Gul's warning: You remove the Pakistani military without an alternative, you end 'Pakistan'.

 

[TheSolution]

Correct.
You may find my posts here with something like 'But who will bell the cat?!' multiple times. You see: Both the civilians and the military are cut from the same cloth and now, while the politicians and journalists had long been discredited, even the military and the judiciary are discredited. What happens to a society in that State? Afghanistan. Somalia. Or some similar countries. But in case of Pakistan, as I have observed, there ARE still credible journalists even with their personal biases. In case of Pakistan, there IS still one force, the military, which can use its 'Danda' to keep some semblance of order. You remove that, and you would cause the end of 'Pakistan'. That was Hameed Gul's warning: You remove the Pakistani military without an alternative, you end 'Pakistan'.

I'm a faujeet tbh so I support them but still heavily critical of their habits, some of the embarrassing inferiority complex habits and also the extreme negligence and lack of meritocracy to allow competent individuals to make an impact.

I really don't have any trust in any political party because they've all proven to be useless, I like Khan because he was good for optics, raising morale, uniting the people, but he was also very childish and self-centred to a degree, he also didn't have any actual clear long-term plans for Pakistan and was flowing with the wind.

I want veterans to form a right-wing nationalist party that emphasises national interests, the collective interests of the people, and putting Pakistan first.

On the topic of journalists some of them are retarded, and majority of them are quite frankly useless. There was one who kept publishing stories of ISI working with terrorist groups and even after being told not to, he continued. I can't say he didn't deserve what happened to him in the end.

 

[El Sidd]

Nope Fatima Jinnah bacha Khan and mujeeb were traitors against ayub Khan
View attachment 938200View attachment 938202View attachment 938203

Irrefutable proof that Fatima Jinnah was in cohots with traitors

View attachment 938204

Mujib and Buccha only sought to legitimize their nefarious efforts by cloaking it with the innocent and pure Fatima.

 

[El Sidd]

. I have heard that he used to go to inner Sindh and stay in tents and personally ensure some water-management projects were done correctly.

If you believe it, you must be on the same level of conniving gullibility as Mr. Niazi. The self proclaimed field marshal destroyed all sense of merit in running the affairs of Pakistan.

And I don't shed tears over Bangladesh

You don't have to shed tears but understand the nation's greatest tragedy. A diverse multi ethnic nation which fell victim to populist desires.

 

[PradoTLC]

but he was also very childish and self-centred to a degree, he also didn't have any actual clear long-term plans for Pakistan and was flowing with the wind.

are you sure you are not talking about Bajwa?

 

[SQ8]

Supporters of military rule ignore the fact Pakistan got a lot of largesse whether it was the Cold War, Soviets in Afghanistan and war on terror.
That made the difference from being a economic disaster. All the economic largesse was squandered away on toys. the results are there to see

Exactly - their myopia is so limited in seeing things only better from their personal perspective that they assume it was good for Pakistan. Musharraf via Shaukat Aziz opened up imports and financing massively so a lot of middle class suddenly had access to decent Japanese car imports and other goods.. so it was a “great leader” and a “great time”

YOU are the whataboutism!! Basically, your narrative against Ayub Khan is built upon the 'anti-Establishment' narrative built by Imran Khan. Before this, you guys were kissing the military badges. And your slap on the wrist about Imran Khan is not convincing! Your's and this forum's narrative against the Establishment is following the Pipe Piper and going back just less than two years would show that!
Evidence and numbers? What about YOU disprove that the Pakistan before 1958 was NOT in worse shape than the Pakistan of 1969??

I have no military background or connections, FYI! We Urdu Speaker Karachiites are not wedded to the military culture of central and northern Punjab. But I give credit where its due and I maintain that Ayub Khan's rule made the fledgling state of Pakistan much stronger.

Now you’re projecting - I did not bring up IK nor am I a closet supporter.
That whataboutism number 1.

Second is talking to Pakistan pre 58 which is Pakistan just after SEATO and CENTO that also helped unlock additional aid and preferential treatment - no one says Pakistan was going great before that but the institutions were still nacent - Ayub destroyed them completely.

My family too is Urdu speaking from every possible angle, I only highlighted blind support that you had for Ayub - except that my family being urdu speaking was still very connected to the military with many having their Pak numbers in double digits with one in single digit.

But Urdu speakers have this delusional tendency to warrant their good old days when they were favored by the military due to their educated middle class majority status.. that is it. Personal business interests and not what was in the interest of Pakistan.

The decade of progress or whatever name Ayub gave to his rule wasn’t all glorious. Wealth was created for 21 families and then whoever they employed but the nation did not make the gains in any other aspect. Education made measly gains as did infrastructure… so whatever state building was done was at the whim of his cabal and no more.

 

[TheSolution]

Exactly - their myopia is so limited in seeing things only better from their personal perspective that they assume it was good for Pakistan. Musharraf via Shaukat Aziz opened up imports and financing massively so a lot of middle class suddenly had access to decent Japanese car imports and other goods.. so it was a “great leader” and a “great time”


Now you’re projecting - I did not bring up IK nor am I a closet supporter.
That whataboutism number 1.

Second is talking to Pakistan pre 58 which is Pakistan just after SEATO and CENTO that also helped unlock additional aid and preferential treatment - no one says Pakistan was going great before that but the institutions were still nacent - Ayub destroyed them completely.

My family too is Urdu speaking from every possible angle, I only highlighted blind support that you had for Ayub - except that my family being urdu speaking was still very connected to the military with many having their Pak numbers in double digits with one in single digit.

But Urdu speakers have this delusional tendency to warrant their good old days when they were favored by the military due to their educated middle class majority status.. that is it. Personal business interests and not what was in the interest of Pakistan.

The decade of progress or whatever name Ayub gave to his rule wasn’t all glorious. Wealth was created for 21 families and then whoever they employed but the nation did not make the gains in any other aspect. Education made measly gains as did infrastructure… so whatever state building was done was at the whim of his cabal and no more.

So basically, every single institution in Pakistan is useless and doesn't look out for national interests at all?

Not the army, not the ISI, not the air force, not any political party

Everyone sells themselves to the highest bidder whether its the Indians or Americans and fills their pockets without any regard for Pakistan?

In short, we are fucked?

 

[indushek]

So basically, every single institution in Pakistan is useless and doesn't look out for national interests at all?

Not the army, not the ISI, not the air force, not any political party

Everyone sells themselves to the highest bidder whether its the Indians or Americans and fills their pockets without any regard for Pakistan?

In short, we are fucked?

Its foolish to expect any one institution or political party, to work for national interests even in a developed country like USA or UK. Individuals will tend to think and work for, immediate benefits first and foremost (human tendency everywhere without exception).

What sets Western countries apart from Eastern counterparts in this? Given the historical benefits, whatever decisions the West takes effects the rest of the world as well.

Coming to India and Pakistan, two countries that escaped clutches of colonialism, this effects nation building heavily. While it might look like its all fucked up in the immediate, people learn to do 80/20 personal/public betterment over time. It takes time and very long time, unless there is some sort of blockage to external involvement. Sadly for Pak this blockage didn't exist, as the rulers felt this external influence will help them in power accumulation.

Its like moon and sun, moon doesn't have its own light, it just takes it from the Sun. When Sun is out of range, the light dies. But then it takes some sort of farsightedness, to realize this.

 

[SQ8]

So basically, every single institution in Pakistan is useless and doesn't look out for national interests at all?

Not the army, not the ISI, not the air force, not any political party

Everyone sells themselves to the highest bidder whether its the Indians or Americans and fills their pockets without any regard for Pakistan?

In short, we are fucked?

That’s drastic and more importantly assumes the institutions as a single body.

Institutions are made up of humans and it is their collective average that guides a country.

By far and large most people in institutions are there to do their job and not rock the boat either way. If the institution has a culture of do it as it has been done then 80% will do just that while trying to keep their own interests as safe as they can within the moral average of social standards.

10% will try to improve it with strong agency and fill it with more people who do that as well while the other 10% will try to serve their own interests and fill it with their kind. On and off if the bad 10% come in control they will weed out the good 10% to 5% and then until a really strong good individual comes in to redo that change again.

Pakistan just had never had the good individuals outnumber the bad ones. So there are always dutiful “dont rock the boat” individuals in every institution including the military who will be the average of society (if society and the institution values are accepting of corruption , nepotism and mediocrity then so will these people) and then there are the utter selfish totally compromised (or capable of being compromised ones) , and there are honorable wonderful people who are the reason why Pakistan exists.

 

[nahtanbob]

So basically, every single institution in Pakistan is useless and doesn't look out for national interests at all?

Not the army, not the ISI, not the air force, not any political party

Everyone sells themselves to the highest bidder whether its the Indians or Americans and fills their pockets without any regard for Pakistan?

In short, we are fucked?

Please do not take this as a negative or attack on yourself

You have a poor understanding of human nature and sociology. You need to understand how organizations work in the real world

 

[TheSolution]

Please do not take this as a negative or attack on yourself

You have a poor understanding of human nature and sociology. You need to understand how organizations work in the real world

I disagree with that but sure, it was more of an exaggerated response to an extremely pessimistic rhetoric (which I'd agree has some truth to it).

 

[nahtanbob]

I disagree with that but sure, it was more of an exaggerated response to an extremely pessimistic rhetoric (which I'd agree has some truth to it).

SQ8 response was a good start