Bhensa founder Waqas Goraya returns home

[Areesh]

Of course there are no contradictions in the Holy Quran ...

Blasphemy has been mentioned a number of times in the Holy Quran and Allah tells us to ignore blasphemers and leave it to him to decide their fate. "Fasad fil Arz" has also been mentioned and we are ordered to kill those "mufsideen" where ever we find them

If we accept your interpretation that blasphemy itself is fasad fil arz, then we will have to accept that the Holy Quran contradicts itself as it tells us to ignore blasphemers in few verses while simultaneously asking us to kill them in some other verses

PPC has section related to "Blasphemy", and it accepts the Quranic principle of "Fasad fil Arz" ... But it does not recognize/acknowledge blasphemy as "Fasad fil Arz", that's why I mentioned it

I understand what you are saying but in Islam and Quran "fasad fil arz" isn't limited to physical violence only.

As far as you saying that Holy Quran asks us to ignore blasphemers we would need to read more about it. The background of those verses. The reason those verses were revealed. What if you are misinterpreting those verses without looking into the background and the reason those verses were revealed.

Kindly post all those verses of allegedly ignoring blasphemers and I would look into it. Lets clear and settle it for good.

Well there are no worldly punishments for blasphemers in Quran nor Prophet's teaching indicate to anything like this nor they're waging a physical war on us but we Muslims can and should counter these idiots with our tongues with logic and patience whenever and where ever we can. Killing/Punishing them is only gonna help idiots like them more that's all i am trying to say.

There is no details about offering namaz in Quran. We don't know how many rakat are in Zuhr prayer a per Quran. So??

Should I stop praying 5 time a day or pray whatever rakat I want to?

Those who deliberately and intentionally do blasphemy are not worth "debate" just like those Indian trolls. Nothing is going to come out of it. Such creatures are not meant for debate.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Actual quote found ...
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

"A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (Peace be upon him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (Peace be upon him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (Peace be upon him) was informed about it.

He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.

He sat before the Prophet (Peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.

Thereupon the Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood. "

How you define the line ?

Hadith is not the primary source, The Holy Quran is ...

Anyway, the consensus of scholars (including Imam Abu Hanifa, Ala Hazrat, Founders of Deoband school of thought, Maududi etc.) has been that single and isolated incidences of blasphemy (by non Muslims) can not be declared "Fitnah" and therefore are not punishable offenses ... Only habitual offenders should be punished ... Now compare it with Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws ... A single alleged utterance of blasphemy by a non muslim can get him/her death penalty (as in Asia Bibi case)

 

[HAIDER]

Hadith is not the primary source, The Holy Quran is ...

Anyway, the consensus of scholars (including Imam Abu Hanifa, Ala Hazrat, Founders of Deoband school of thought, Maududi etc.) has been that single and isolated incidences of blasphemy (by non Muslims) can not be declared "Fitnah" and therefore are not punishable offenses ... Only habitual offenders should be punished ... Now compare it with Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws ... A single alleged utterance of blasphemy by a non muslim can get him/her death penalty (as in Asia Bibi case)

But do you see its condemnation by Holy Prophet PBUM ...reading this line . noudbt arbic is confusing lingo even for arabs too.
"Thereupon the Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood."

 

[M. Sarmad]

But do you see its condemnation by Holy Prophet PBUM ...reading this line . noudbt arbic is confusing lingo even for arabs too.
"Thereupon the Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood."

Provide the Hadith Source please ...

And she was a habitual offender even if we accept this story at face value

 

[HAIDER]

Provide the Hadith Source please

https://muflihun.com/abudawood/39/4348

 

[Areesh]

Hadith is not the primary source, The Holy Quran is ...

Anyway, the consensus of scholars (including Imam Abu Hanifa, Ala Hazrat, Founders of Deoband school of thought, Maududi etc.) has been that single and isolated incidences of blasphemy (by non Muslims) can not be declared "Fitnah" and therefore are not punishable offenses ... Only habitual offenders should be punished ... Now compare it with Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws ... A single alleged utterance of blasphemy by a non muslim can get him/her death penalty (as in Asia Bibi case)

And case of Bhensa is not of isolated incident of blasphemy. Bhensa is a habitual offender. I think you can agree at least on that.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Kindly post all those verses of allegedly ignoring blasphemers and I would look into it. Lets clear and settle it for good.

Blasphemy in the Light of the Qur'an

And case of Bhensa is not of isolated incident of blasphemy. Bhensa is a habitual offender. I think you can agree at least on that.

Allah has cursed those who abuse Allah and his messenger. Don't know much about this "Bhensa", but if he was a blasphemer, curse of Allah is upon him .... And if he was a Habitual offender, he deserves harsher punishment ...

 

[airmarshal]

First of all kidnapping was wrong. Pakistan has laws against hate speech. If not blasphemy what he was doing was definitely hate speech. Why was he not charged and publicly sentenced? Pakistan is weak on many fronts. Law abiding and its enforcement is one of them.

 

[TankMan]

Kindly post all those verses of allegedly ignoring blasphemers and I would look into it.

"When ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme." [Qur'an 4:140]

"And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "to us our deeds and to you yours; peace be to you." [Qur'an 28: 55]

"Hold to forgiveness, command what is right; but turn away from the ignorant." [Qur'an 7:199]

"Have patience with what they say, and leaves them with noble (dignity)." [Qur'an 73:10]

"And the servants of Allah . . . are those who walked on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say 'Peace'" [Qur'an 25:63]

"Allah is with those who restrain themselves." [Qur'an 16: 128]

". . . But they uttered blasphemy . . . if they repent, it will be best for them, but if they turn back, Allah will punish them." [Qur'an 9:47]

The Qur'an doesn't support blasphemy laws,

Hadith is not the primary source, The Holy Quran is ...

Anyway, the consensus of scholars (including Imam Abu Hanifa, Ala Hazrat, Founders of Deoband school of thought, Maududi etc.) has been that single and isolated incidences of blasphemy (by non Muslims) can not be declared "Fitnah" and therefore are not punishable offenses ... Only habitual offenders should be punished ... Now compare it with Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws ... A single alleged utterance of blasphemy by a non muslim can get him/her death penalty (as in Asia Bibi case)

Also, in most cases from Hadtih in which blasphemers have been punished, they have been guilty of other crimes as well.

For example, Ka'ab bin Ashraf, who is often used as an argument in favour of blasphemy laws since he was killed on order of the Prophet S.A.W, had written blasphemous verses but he had also conspired with the Quraysh after the Battle of Badr to attack Muslims, and had planned to kill the Prophet S.A.W alongside a group of Jews.

Clearly blasphemy was not his only crime.

Still, blasphemy bordering on hate speech such as the one posted by Bhensa on a regular basis should be prosecuted - but death penalty is extreme and un-Islamic.

However, if these people were involved in plotting with foreign proxies etc - that would be Fasad fil Arz, bordering on treason, and should be dealt with accordingly

-----------------
I thought at least the psuedo-Liberals will shut up about how evil the Army is now that their beloved 'activists' have returned.

"Pakistan is routinely ranked among the world's most dangerous countries for journalists, and reporting critical of security policies controlled by the powerful military is considered a major red flag, with reporters at times detained, beaten and even killed."
http://www.dawn.com/news/1311472/two-missing-activists-return-home-say-family-members

Dawn can go to hell. They criticise the "Powerful Evil Military" on a regular basis with no consequences whatsoever, and then make such claims. If the military was targeting these 'critics of security policies', the entire staff of Dawn and ET would be gone.

 

[M. Sarmad]

The Qur'an doesn't support blasphemy laws

Also, in most cases from Hadtih in which blasphemers have been punished, they have been guilty of other crimes as well.

For example, Ka'ab bin Ashraf, who is often used as an argument in favour of blasphemy laws since he was killed on order of the Prophet S.A.W, had written blasphemous verses but he had also conspired with the Quraysh after the Battle of Badr to attack Muslims, and had planned to kill the Prophet S.A.W alongside a group of Jews.

Clearly blasphemy was not his only crime.

Still, blasphemy bordering on hate speech such as the one posted by Bhensa on a regular basis should be prosecuted - but death penalty is extreme and un-Islamic.

However, if these people were involved in plotting with foreign proxies etc - that would be Fasad fil Arz, bordering on treason, and should be dealt with accordingly

I completely agree

And that is exactly what I had been trying to say all along.

Thank You

 

[HAIDER]

"When ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme." [Qur'an 4:140]

"And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "to us our deeds and to you yours; peace be to you." [Qur'an 28: 55]

"Hold to forgiveness, command what is right; but turn away from the ignorant." [Qur'an 7:199]

"Have patience with what they say, and leaves them with noble (dignity)." [Qur'an 73:10]

"And the servants of Allah . . . are those who walked on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say 'Peace'" [Qur'an 25:63]

"Allah is with those who restrain themselves." [Qur'an 16: 128]

". . . But they uttered blasphemy . . . if they repent, it will be best for them, but if they turn back, Allah will punish them." [Qur'an 9:47]

The Qur'an doesn't support blasphemy laws,

Also, in most cases from Hadtih in which blasphemers have been punished, they have been guilty of other crimes as well.

For example, Ka'ab bin Ashraf, who is often used as an argument in favour of blasphemy laws since he was killed on order of the Prophet S.A.W, had written blasphemous verses but he had also conspired with the Quraysh after the Battle of Badr to attack Muslims, and had planned to kill the Prophet S.A.W alongside a group of Jews.

Clearly blasphemy was not his only crime.

Still, blasphemy bordering on hate speech such as the one posted by Bhensa on a regular basis should be prosecuted - but death penalty is extreme and un-Islamic.

However, if these people were involved in plotting with foreign proxies etc - that would be Fasad fil Arz, bordering on treason, and should be dealt with accordingly

-----------------
I thought at least the psuedo-Liberals will shut up about how evil the Army is now that their beloved 'activists' have returned.

"Pakistan is routinely ranked among the world's most dangerous countries for journalists, and reporting critical of security policies controlled by the powerful military is considered a major red flag, with reporters at times detained, beaten and even killed."
http://www.dawn.com/news/1311472/two-missing-activists-return-home-say-family-members

Dawn can go to hell. They criticise the "Powerful Evil Military" on a regular basis with no consequences whatsoever, and then make such claims. If the military was targeting these 'critics of security policies', the entire staff of Dawn and ET would be gone.

Its really interesting and confusing Holy Prophet PBUM " is " rahamat ulil alameen and if following his teaching then are these type of laws acceptable in this society ?

 

[Areesh]

"When ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme." [Qur'an 4:140]

"And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "to us our deeds and to you yours; peace be to you." [Qur'an 28: 55]

"Hold to forgiveness, command what is right; but turn away from the ignorant." [Qur'an 7:199]

"Have patience with what they say, and leaves them with noble (dignity)." [Qur'an 73:10]

"And the servants of Allah . . . are those who walked on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say 'Peace'" [Qur'an 25:63]

"Allah is with those who restrain themselves." [Qur'an 16: 128]

". . . But they uttered blasphemy . . . if they repent, it will be best for them, but if they turn back, Allah will punish them." [Qur'an 9:47]

The Qur'an doesn't support blasphemy laws,

Also, in most cases from Hadtih in which blasphemers have been punished, they have been guilty of other crimes as well.

For example, Ka'ab bin Ashraf, who is often used as an argument in favour of blasphemy laws since he was killed on order of the Prophet S.A.W, had written blasphemous verses but he had also conspired with the Quraysh after the Battle of Badr to attack Muslims, and had planned to kill the Prophet S.A.W alongside a group of Jews.

Clearly blasphemy was not his only crime.

Still, blasphemy bordering on hate speech such as the one posted by Bhensa on a regular basis should be prosecuted - but death penalty is extreme and un-Islamic.

However, if these people were involved in plotting with foreign proxies etc - that would be Fasad fil Arz, bordering on treason, and should be dealt with accordingly

-----------------

Good. But most of these verses are related to Muslims preaching Non Muslims and non muslim rejecting the dawah by Muslims.

Does the same apply to blasphemers and apostates in Islamic state like Pakistan?

Should an Islamic state also ignore blasphemers and apostates inside its territory?

Should an Islamic state also ignore and say that "Allah will deal with them" in their territory?

If that is the case then we have examples of both Prophet Mohammad (SAW) and his Caliphs later on giving death punishment for blasphemy(like that jew lady) and apostasy in their rule.

Nobody here is asking for death sentence in Denmark or USA. But the question is of that of an Islamic state.

 

[TankMan]

Its really interesting and confusing Holy Prophet PBUM " is " rahamat ulil alameen and if following his teaching then are these type of laws acceptable in this society ?

The blasphemy laws are a disgrace, especially considering how much they are misused.

I personally am in favour of a balanced law banning hate speech against any religion, with a maximum of a couple of years in prison as penalty.

 

[HAIDER]

The blasphemy laws are a disgrace, especially considering how much they are misused.

I personally am in favour of a balanced law banning hate speech against any religion, with a maximum of a couple of years in prison as penalty.

I don't have link but long ago Geo or Ary compile a show , in which they show victim of this law. How there friends,enemies and other mafia use this law for monitory benefits ..Remember a guy in Karachi fought a case where his opponent file blasphemy case just to confiscate his shop .

 

[TankMan]

Good. But most of these verses are related to Muslims preaching Non Muslims and non muslim rejecting the dawah by Muslims.

Does the same apply to blasphemers and apostates in Islamic state like Pakistan?

Should an Islamic state also ignore blasphemers and apostates inside its territory?

Should an Islamic state also ignore and say that "Allah will deal with them" in their territory?

If that is the case then we have examples of both Prophet Mohammad (SAW) and his Caliphs later on giving death punishment for blasphemy(like that jew lady) and apostasy in their rule.

Apostasy is a different case altogether as during the Prophet's time, apostasy essentially meant committing treason.

There should be a penalty for sedition and spreading propaganda against the state, but definitely not the death penalty. That should be reserved for the worst offenders, i.e in cases of treason.

Saying that you don't believe in God is different from supporting foreign proxies and anti-state activities - if we punish them both with the death penalty, how can our laws be proportionate to the crime committed?

"And if you punished, let your punishment be proportionate to the wrong that has been done to you; but if you show patience, that is indeed the best course. [Qur'an 16:126]