Betrayed, Arabized

[53fd]

^^^
Read the full thread

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/126804-betrayed-arabized-42.html#post2065120

I have read, & participated actively in this thread. However, I wanted to write Post #631 to streamline my thoughts, because this is such a vast topic, & many people have meandered into meaningless subjects. It is imperative what one is talking about, in terms of what "Arabization" means to them.

 

[Al Bhatti]

Urdu is already taught in schools, Urdu alphabets consists of all the Arabic alphabets, Kids and adults alike can read Arabic (without understanding though).

So why not go that extra mile to learn the language in order to read it correctly + be able to speak it also.

 

[RezRoll]

It is impervious for any leader of an Islamic state to ensure that Islam is made a part of life of common people. It is necessary for the leader of an Islamic state to take steps to ensure the constitution is Islam and Quran itself.

If the leader of an Islamic state fails to ensure upholding Islam and fails to make Islam part the state's religion
then it is considered a sin on his part and he will be held accountable for it.

Yesterday I commented on this thread saying the Arab influence is not all that good.. I was hounded by some PDF members and called Indian/Troll/Barti and some other weird stuff. I should stay out of this debate as i am no way involve or related to this, but there is something I want to say, since my country is going through the exact same phase.

Arab culture isn't bad and who ever that wants to practice and learn the language is all but welcomed.

The problem only starts when the government/certain religious groups forces all it's citizen to learn Arab and try to be "Arab" as possible. For me, a government's priority is to ensure the well being of the economy and the quality of life in the country to be as high as possible. Not decide the language or the religion a person wants to learn.

If someone wants to get closer to God or understand the Quran better, he can learn Arabic. If a young girl wants to travel to South America, she can learn Spanish. If a guy wants to write a poem to impress his girlfriend, he can learn French or Persian.

At the end, choosing a culture to embrace or learn should be an individual choice, not a choice the government makes.

 

[Erhabi]

Yesterday I commented on this thread saying the Arab influence is not all that good.. I was hounded by some PDF members and called Indian/Troll/Barti and some other weird stuff. I should stay out of this debate as i am no way involve or related to this, but there is something I want to say, since my country is going through the exact same phase.

Arab culture isn't bad and who ever that wants to practice and learn the language is all but welcomed.

The problem only starts when the government/certain religious groups forces all it's citizen to learn Arab and try to be "Arab" as possible. For me, a government's priority is to ensure the well being of the economy and the quality of life in the country to be as high as possible. Not decide the language or the religion a person wants to learn.

If someone wants to get closer to God or understand the Quran better, he can learn Arabic. If a young girl wants to travel to South America, she can learn Spanish. If a guy wants to write a poem to impress his girlfriend, he can learn French or Persian.

At the end, choosing a culture to embrace or learn should be an individual choice, not a choice the government makes.

and the problem is you guys are interfering and commenting on a matter most of Pakistanis dont give a damn about...We love Arabs and Arabic language and stop commenting on our internal matter ..end of story

 

[RezRoll]

and the problem is you guys are interfering and commenting on a matter most of Pakistanis dont give a damn about...We love Arabs and Arabic language and stop commenting on our internal matter ..end of story

Ah, nevermind then.

I sincerely hope the best for you and your aspirations of adapting Arab culture.

I'm off from here. Salam Aidilfitri. Bye

 

[alphamale]

liberal pakistanis should not worry abt pakistan being arabized. there are many ppl in paksitan who love their own culture. even strong determination of Zia-ul-haq to arabized pakistan failed. as long as sufi followers and admirers are there in pakistan, there is no threat of pakistan being arabized

 

[53fd]

It is sad that certain members here are trying to 'capitalize' on this thread here, bringing up other issues here that don't really pertain to the topic, but please, we are trying to have a civil discussion here on a serious topic (that quite frankly, isn't even a huge concern for many Pakistanis), & this thread should not be 'exploited' & derailed onto other issues.

 

[DADU]

Not necessarily liberal but as long as there are like minded Pakistanis, then they will always resist any forceful attempt of arabization.
We should start with closing down the madrasas as a 1st step.

peace

 

[T-Faz]

This Arabization can also be described as forced implementation of a hardline Islamic provisions and laws that were foreign to the Muslims of Pakistan. As Javid Iqbal (Allama Iqbal's son) stated on a TV show recently that the laws introduced during Gen Zia's time were created by a Saudi scholar sent by the Sauds. This was done to impose harsh laws that created confusion and unclarity in Pakistan paving way for the current difficulties faced by this nation.

He (Javid Iqbal) even named Dualibi as the Arab scholar who was sent to Pakistan by Saudi Arabia to impose the laws that Pakistan was averse to enforcing. The fact is that the 1980 Zakat & Ushr Ordinance, imposed by General Zia on Sunnis and Shias, was framed by Dualibi in Arabic. Javid Iqbal clearly said that moderate and liberal elements were silent because they feared harm at the hands of extremist forces. He equally despaired of politicians.

He said that only the ibadat (prayer rituals) were unchangeable in Islam; muamilat (affairs) had to change in tune with the times. One reason Islamisation did not improve the Pakistani character was the state’s retrogression towards laws that were no longer compatible with modern times. He referred to an effort made by late MNA MP Bhandara who, as a minority representative, wanted the August 11, 1947 speech of Jinnah incorporated into the Constitution.

Was Jinnah secular? – The Express Tribune

 

[Porus]

First of all, we all need to define what "Arabization" is.

"Arabization" to some might mean Arab culture (dressing, lingual 'changes') for society, to others it might mean Arabi "Salafism" (radicalization); to others, it might mean promoting the importance of religious scripture of the Quran on a personal level etc.

a) Does promoting religious scripture of the Quran, & giving it a preference over other religious texts hurt Pakistani society in any way?

b) Does promoting Arab culture (in terms of dressing, like the Niqab; lingual 'changes', such as going from Khuda Hafez to "Allah" Hafiz) for the society, in any way compromise one's personal ethnic heritage, & is it wrong if it does hinder it, considering how societies evolve? Does it hurt society in any way?

c) Does promoting Salafi Jihadism/Wahabism like Zia ul Haq did compromise Pakistani society?

These are all complicated questions (besides the third/last one) that have no easy answers, that need a bit of clarification on one's end.

I could never fully understand this khuda hafiz vs allah hafiz debate. The former was a traditional Persian parting phrase. Persian was also the lingua franca of the Muslim rulers of Hindoostan and because of their heavy cltural and linguistic influence khuda hafiz became an integral part of the "Urdu culture". After the creation of Pakistan when the Islamic language Urdu (which is alhamdullilah three fourth Hindu and one fourth Muslim) was imposed on its people, khuda hafiz also replaced the infidel greetings like rab rakha. The last influence of paganism was removed after a necessary circumcision and khuda hafiz became a complete momin during the rule of mard e momin. What is the problem now?

 

[Sinnerman108]

This Arabization can also be described as forced implementation of a hardline Islamic provisions and laws that were foreign to the Muslims of Pakistan. As Javid Iqbal (Allama Iqbal's son) stated on a TV show recently that the laws introduced during Gen Zia's time were created by a Saudi scholar sent by the Sauds. This was done to impose harsh laws that created confusion and unclarity in Pakistan paving way for the current difficulties faced by this nation.



Was Jinnah secular? – The Express Tribune

Can you please give us an example of any hardline law as you are claiming if at all there are any of them there ?

 

[T-Faz]

Can you please give us an example of any hardline law as you are claiming if at all there are any of them there ?

The entire set of Hudood ordinances had laws that were hastily and wrongly implemented.

Take the Zina laws and Zina-bil-jabr overlap which occurred. Zina being adultery, whereby there is a requirement for four witnesses (of good character) to the act before a case results in punishment. The same concept was applied to Zina-bil-jabr where the female was required to bring four witnesses to prove that she was indeed raped. If she could not produce witnesses, the female would be charged under Zina (adultery) and this allowed thousands of rape cases to remain stagnant, much to the anguish of the victim.

Blasphemy laws too were wrongly implemented (incorrect wording and focus) as they were primarily used for revenge purposes and resulted in a lot of victimization of people who had not even committed blasphemy.

Zakat and Ushr ordinances created the first major argument between Sunni's and Shia's as the Sharia according to Shia's is different in this respect. This spurred on the creation of anti-Shiaism which destroyed the countries sectarian harmony.

Parallel Sharia courts and these ordinances added inconsistency to the naturally developing constitutional law of the nation.

Today, the accumulation of this is there for everyone to see.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You appear influenced by numerous posts in here that deviated from the main topic.

The point made in the opening post was efforts of the state to push hard a cultural piece on to the Pakistani mass. In some cases, as pointed out in the article, such push became a part of the government's official policy. That is one aspect.

But is the State 'pushing Arabization'?

Arabic is not a compulsory subject, neither is 'Wahabism/Salafism' promoted as the 'sect of choice'. From my own experience in grades 9, 10,11,12 in a Pakistani School, the subject of 'Islamiat/Islamic Studies' in fact had the option of a 'Shia curriculum'.

The State does push a 'religious identity', but I see no evidence that it is pushing a 'Arab/Wahabi/Salafi identity'.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I am going to start banning people who keep dragging in the 'India' angle.

Off Topic Posts deleted

 

[Sinnerman108]

Now, look up,
you specifically said HARDLINE laws, and asked for an example of such.

The entire set of Hudood ordinances had laws that were hastily and wrongly implemented.

This is not hardline, what you are saying is it is "inaccurate".

Take the Zina laws and Zina-bil-jabr overlap which occurred. Zina being adultery, whereby there is a requirement for four witnesses (of good character) to the act before a case results in punishment. The same concept was applied to Zina-bil-jabr where the female was required to bring four witnesses to prove that she was indeed raped. If she could not produce witnesses, the female would be charged under Zina (adultery) and this allowed thousands of rape cases to remain stagnant, much to the anguish of the victim.

Is there another definition as proved by Quran or Hadith ?

Blasphemy laws too were wrongly implemented (incorrect wording and focus) as they were primarily used for revenge purposes and resulted in a lot of victimization of people who had not even committed blasphemy.

Get over it !

Zakat and Ushr ordinances created the first major argument between Sunni's and Shia's as the Sharia according to Shia's is different in this respect. This spurred on the creation of anti-Shiaism which destroyed the countries sectarian harmony.

Parallel Sharia courts and these ordinances added inconsistency to the naturally developing constitutional law of the nation.

Today, the accumulation of this is there for everyone to see.

Look,
The initiative had to be taken to make legislation and life as Islamic as possible.
For this we can not blame any one.

Now, it is understood some people have grievances. This is understandable ; I have never seen a loosing party be satisfied with laws of judgment process. The committee at that time knew that the fine tuning had to be done for these laws to be made fool proof. However because of the prevalent situation at that time enough effort could not be made.

(Now here's the important part) Because of the knowledge of inaccuracy Federal Shariat AND the Islamic Ideology council was NOT made independent. It was asked to give it's RECOMMENDATIONS to the higher judiciary and the parliament. This step was taken to buy time and to keep the Shariat court in some order while more permanent solutions were made available to remedy the situation.

All said and done,
IF you have another example of HARDLINE rules / legislation do feel free to come around. Else I would appreciate if you correct yourself.