Betrayed, Arabized

[yusufzoi]

How many times have you heard an Indian strive to prove his identity as in his connections/roots to his ancestors? How many Indians have you heard trying to prove how they owe their lineage to Turks/Persians/Central Asians/Arabs...raher anything under the Sun BUT Indian.

It all boils down to the collection lack of a sense of national identity.

The basic questions of,

"Who are we?"

"Who were our ancestors?"

"To whom to we trace our lineage?"

and, in Pakistanis' case especially, "How are we different from Indians?"

This quest for a national identity which seperates Pakistanis lineage from India is the root of all that this article talks about.

Indians on the contrary have a very settled and stable sense of national identity.

I am pushtoon, my ancestors were pushtoon, baloch people are iranic people like me, so tell me what linage do I share with you, what heritage do I share with you?.

Please do tell me.

 

[Kazhugu]

@Santro:-

You said while translating the nuances would be lost and so translated sources are not as good as original....fair point...but how do you know the non-native speakers ( for ex pakistanis, indonesians) pick up the same nuances as good as the arabs do since its their mother tongue ?

 

[Kazhugu]

I am pushtoon, my ancestors were pushtoon, baloch people are iranic people like me, so tell me what linage do I share with you, what heritage do I share with you?.

Please do tell me.

do only baloch and pashtun make up pakistan..? you guys hardly make about 30 % of the populations...the remaining 70% is made up of punjabis, mohajirs and sindhis who share cultural roots with the indian side.....

again im a tamil and like you i dont share a morsel with any of the pakistanis.....but the intersection happens in the case of punjabis,mohajirs and sindhis in pakistan and the north indians especially punjabis, gujratis, rajasthanis, up/bihari wallahs in india.....

 

[yusufzoi]

How many times have you heard an Indian strive to prove his identity as in his connections/roots to his ancestors? How many Indians have you heard trying to prove how they owe their lineage to Turks/Persians/Central Asians/Arabs...raher anything under the Sun BUT Indian.

It all boils down to the collection lack of a sense of national identity.

The basic questions of,

"Who are we?"

"Who were our ancestors?"

"To whom to we trace our lineage?"

and, in Pakistanis' case especially, "How are we different from Indians?"

This quest for a national identity which seperates Pakistanis lineage from India is the root of all that this article talks about.

Indians on the contrary have a very settled and stable sense of national identity.

I am a pushtoon my ancestors were pushtoon, baloch like me are iranic people and we make up half of pakistan, so tell me what lineage do I share with you?

What heritage do I share with you, please do tell me?

 

[khanz4996]

I am a pushtoon my ancestors were pushtoon, baloch like me are iranic people and we make up half of pakistan, so tell me what lineage do I share with you?

What heritage do I share with you, please do tell me?

Islam the greatest brotherhood we share between us.by the way i am a pastoon too

 

[Jango]

@Santro:-

You said while translating the nuances would be lost and so translated sources are not as good as original....fair point...but how do you know the non-native speakers ( for ex pakistanis, indonesians) pick up the same nuances as good as the arabs do since its their mother tongue ?

Because the Quran is not a story or a poem in which you have to read the summary in context to the original text. Quran gives us ways to spend our life in worthwhile, and to go in the path of the divine. If translation is used, differences can arise somewhere, but if the tafsir or nuances in their true meaning. There are alot of instances in the Quran where the exact translation can be confusing and totlly misunderstood. But the meaning of the ruku, ayat aur sura can be sought after and hence the objective is completed, that is to accept the orders of Allah in the Surah in our life.

 

[yusufzoi]

do only baloch and pashtun make up pakistan..? you guys hardly make about 30 % of the populations...the remaining 70% is made up of punjabis, mohajirs and sindhis who share cultural roots with the indian side.....

again im a tamil and like you i dont share a morsel with any of the pakistanis.....but the intersection happens in the case of punjabis,mohajirs and sindhis in pakistan and the north indians especially punjabis, gujratis, rajasthanis, up/bihari wallahs in india.....

Well then don't use the word pakistani as it counts all pakistanis including pushtoons and balochs.

You are better of naming them by their ethnic group rather then saying pakistanis as the word pakistani is for all.

 

[Subramanian]

The exact point I was trying to explain to Subramanian and some other guy. The Arabic can never be translated word for word. Therefore the meaning and gist is more important for us.

Dude,i agree with you,Things get lost in translation but then it is also important to understand the meaning and for that u need good teachers.We also have the same problem in India with sanskrit texts and getting teachers to decipher sanskrit is difficult.

 

[Jango]

Dude,i agree with you,Things get lost in translation but then it is also important to understand the meaning and for that u need good teachers.We also have the same problem in India with sanskrit texts and getting teachers to decipher sanskrit is difficult.

Well then, you and i are on the same page, problem solved.

 

[Moorkh]

freedom of mind means you can invent your own form of hinduism?

pretty much. you can come up with a new prayer and a new god and just claim its part of hinduism

does hinfuism gude you extensively about everyday life?

hinduism never told me anything about everyday life, my friends and family did. keep looking though, you might find someone who was told by hinduism about everyday life

tell me according to hinfu teachings whats the best way of taking your food...

through the mouth

 

[President Camacho]

Means in Quran Arabic.. cannot be replicated in any other language and considered complete.
Every letter in its flow to the other has a meaning unique to the language.
Any attempt to translate it into another language and assume it perfect is flawed.
Each verse is a book in itself.. for those who take the time to read it, and understand it.

Which is why a new Muslim convert is asked to recite the kalimah in arabic..

You raise a very interesting point there. How many of the Muslims all over the world really understand Arabic? I do not think all.

So how can one become a Muslim without having a thorough knowledge of Arabic? That person will simply be reciting the Kalima in Arabic, and not understand a word of it. Will that person become a Muslim simply because he/she recited Kalima even if it goes over his/her head?

Would it not make all those people who have no knowledge of Arabic, non-Muslims? Or is it that God is simply content at the recitation of the Kalima, and that's it, it's done there? But that would make God irrational.

 

[somebozo]

paid journalism at its best! guys Pakistan or the so called northern part of Indian sub continent has been under Arabian influence for 1400 years. It is only surprising that it did not become arabized when civilization like berber, Egyptian, syriac, romans have all assimilated into Arab heritage by invasion and conquests.

 

[Jango]

You raise a very interesting point there. How many of the Muslims all over the world really understand Arabic? I do not think all.

So how can one become a Muslim without having a thorough knowledge of Arabic? That person will simply be reciting the Kalima in Arabic, and not understand a word of it. Will that person become a Muslim simply because he/she recited Kalima even if it goes over his/her head?

Would it not make all those people who have no knowledge of Arabic, non-Muslims? Or is it that God is simply content at the recitation of the Kalima, and that's it, it's done there? But that would make God irrational.

Every muslim , pakistani or Arab, knows the meaning of the Kalima, and most of them know the meaning of namaaz.

---------- Post added at 01:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 AM ----------

You raise a very interesting point there. How many of the Muslims all over the world really understand Arabic? I do not think all.

So how can one become a Muslim without having a thorough knowledge of Arabic? That person will simply be reciting the Kalima in Arabic, and not understand a word of it. Will that person become a Muslim simply because he/she recited Kalima even if it goes over his/her head?

Would it not make all those people who have no knowledge of Arabic, non-Muslims? Or is it that God is simply content at the recitation of the Kalima, and that's it, it's done there? But that would make God irrational.

You have your location as New Delhi, Country as Slovakia, and current flag is Bulgaria.
So, I dont think you know basics about Islam, and the Islam in Pakistan??

 

[SQ8]

Thank you for your post Santro - it is of course completely wrong headed - to begin with you have "imagined" that all things have changed but Arabic has not - this is the obvious weakness of your argument -- but there is a more fundamental flaw in your position, not just that you have posited Allah as a Arab (and therefore your ill considered position Arabophobia equals Islamophobia), that Quran in Arabic is somehow different than in any other language - this of course besides being an argument for arab cultural chauvanism/imperialism of the 7th century, has another flaw - namely that Arabic was "chosen" - this "Semitic" chosen business is anathema to islam because Islam is a Dawa, an invitation, open to all, forever, therefore Islam is about redemption through faith, not about being "chosen".

If you review the "Making of the Modern Maulvi" thread, you will begin to understand why the argument about the possible corruption of Quran (if it is the word of God, can it be corrupted, Hainji???) was and is, primarily about the cornering of knowledge it's commercial value :

If I was to posit Allah as an Arab muse.. then I would consider us all condemned then..Since Allah would have been an Arab to me and I am not one.. so there goes all that praying down the drain.
Your arabophobia.. is apparent in the need to consider god's word as presented to the Arabs in their language and not repeated elsewhere.. as the word of an Arab.. in other words.. You believe only in La-ilaha Illallah..
heck.. if that is the case.. why even call god Allah muse..
Call him whatever you wish.. call him the big cheese.. Almighty.. whatever.
After all, if his word being revealed in Arabic was only for the Arabs.. then why even call your belief Islam?
Call it whatever you want.. call yourself a '' Peace-y".. or "amani"..
Since the word being revealed in Arabic and not in language you understand is the problem.. and it was only the underlying message that was important.. then why dont you go ahead and Author a Quran(or dont even call it a Quran.. call ir Oracle perhaps)?? Since you clearly understand the underlying message in the culturally oppressive text called the Arabic Quran..and your faith is unrelated to the revelation of the word of god... then why care about god's word as it was revealed in a culturally oppressive language to a Arab all those centuries ago. You know the common theme.. why cant you declare yourself a prophet and preach?
If the whole idea about the idea being important and not the message or the messenger is the key here.
There should be prophets of Islam all over the place.. we all have the idea..

If in your view the word of god is corruptible.. then how is it theoretically possible that the millions of those who claim to be hafiz e Quran from the coast of shanghai down to the horn of Africa have the same verses..the same order to recite?
I mean this would have to be one huge whammy that all of these people most of whom have not shared a common teacher still have common knowledge..
Or have they all been duped in a mass conspiracy by the Arabs into thinking that they all recite the same thing??
Damn Arbizz and their racist cultural mindset.. they planned it from the 7th century they did..

 

[jayron]

Well then don't use the word pakistani as it counts all pakistanis including pushtoons and balochs.

You are better of naming them by their ethnic group rather then saying pakistanis as the word pakistani is for all.

Most of these articles are written by Pakistanis. We gain nothing by associating our selves with Pakistan. India infact worked hard to be de-hyphenated from Pak.