Betrayed, Arabized

[muse]

Maso

Since Islam is for everyone, does that mean one has to speak and read and write arabic to be a Muslim? Or is it that such propositions are a reflection of arbi chauvanism?

Please answer as your conscience directs you

 

[President Camacho]

You dont know the meaning of the word gist?, You failed in English ALONG with Geography?. It means the meaning of the text, the true sense and true objective of the ayat instead of the exact word to word translation.

"The true sense... the gist... the meaning... and not exactly word to word translation" - Why would you need it to be only in Arabic then?

And why are you so keen on getting personal? I did not say anything hurtful to you, did I? Try not to get like that, it shows you in a very bad light.

 

[Mosamania]

That's a good post - now since Islam is for everyone, does that mean one has to speak and read and write arabic to be a Muslim? Or is it that such propositions are a reflection of arbi chauvanism?

Qur'an was sent to Prophet Muhammad Peace be Upon Him in Arabic. Because at the time Arabic language was the clearest form of language to get any message across. Arabic people in Jahilya (Pre-Islam time) Mastered the language and studied their language carefully you can clearly see that in Jahilya poetry and literature.

These days the Qur'an can be and for the most part was translated to all languages of the world (maybe not in minor languages yet) You can read the Qur'an in any language I have read the English copy of the Qur'an as well to see what it is like to read it in another language and found that some things are not very clear and need require explanation but when I read it in Arabic it is far more clearer than it is in English and the message is delivered far better.

You do not need to learn Arabic as a mandate to go to heaven if that is what you mean.

 

[MadDog]

Btw to make things clear, in Punjab people of various ethnic backgrounds exist, Saraekis, Baloch in South, Punjabi Pathans
of Saraeki belt in the North, hindko speaking people. Then if you historically look there are families in south Punjab like
Qureshis, , Chishti, Ansari, Osmani , Siddiqui and Farooqi who claim Arab ancestory. Families like Durranis, Gardezis from Gardez, Afghanistan, Shirazis from Sheraz, Iran etc and various other families. Then there are groups which intermixed or claim decent from Central Asian tribes which ruled subcontinent for 800 years, more details here and then there are local native tribes which converted to Islam like Gujjars, Jats and RajputsPunjabi people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_people

"Punjabis make up almost 45% of the population of Pakistan. The Punjabis found in Pakistan belong to groups known as biradaris, which descend from a common male ancestor. In addition, Punjabi society is divided into two divisions, the zamindar groups or qoums, traditionally associated with farming and the moeens, who are traditionally artisans. Zamindars are further divided into qoups that claim pre-Islamic ancestry such as the Rajput, Aheers, Harals, Ghosi (tribe), Jat, Shaikhs or (Muslim Khatri), Kambohs, Gujjars, Dogars and Rahmani (Muslim Labana). Zamindar groups claiming Central Asian or Middle Eastern ancestry include the Gakhars, Khattar, Awan, Mughal and Arain, comprising the main tribes in the north of the province, while Khagga, Bodla, Jhandir, Daudpota, Gardezi, Syed and Quraishi are found in the south, all of whom claim Arab ancestry. Immigrants from neighbouring regions, such as the Kashmiri, Pashtun and Baluch, also form important element in the Punjabi population. Pashtun tribes like the Niazis and the Khakwanis, are integrated into Punjabi village life. Especially the members of the Niazi tribe, who see themselves as Punjabis first. They have big communities in Mianwali, Bakkar, Lahore, Faisalabad, Sahiwal and Toba Tek Singh. Major Moeen groups include the Lohar, Khateek, Rawal, Chhimba Darzi, Teli, Julaha, Mallaah, Mirasi, who are associated with a particular crafts or occupation.[34]
Punjabis have traditionally and historically been farmers and soldiers, which has transferred into modern times with their dominance of agriculture and military fields in Pakistan. In addition, Punjabis in Pakistan have been quite prominent politically, having had many elected Members of Parliament. As the most ardent supporters of a Pakistani state, the Punjabis in Pakistan have shown a strong predilection towards the adoption of the Urdu language but nearly all speak Punjabi, and still identify themselves as ethnic Punjabis for the most part. Religious homogeneity remains elusive as a predominant Islamic Sunni-Shia population and a Christian minority have not completely wiped out diversity since the partition of British India. A variety of related sub-groups exist in Pakistan and are often considered by many Pakistani Punjabis to be simply regional Punjabis including the Seraikis (who overlap and are often considered transitional with the Sindhis) and Punjabi Pathans (which publications like Encyclopædia Britannica consider a transitional group between Punjabis and Pathans."

Punjab of Pakistan unlike any other province has always been a melting pot of cultures. You can see from its name which
isn't ethnically related unlike KPK, Balochistan, Sindh i.e 2 Persian words Punj (meaning Five) and Aab (meaning water), the land
of five rivers. Throughout history and even now people from various places settled in this land and were known as Punjabis
and this process is continuing even now. You can never be a sindhi or a baloch if you live in Sindh or Balochistan even for 100 years but if you come to Punjab, you can melt in and call yourself a Punjabi no matter what your ethnicity is.

 

[somebozo]

Any person who claims Pakistan is arabisized has peanuts in his heads and is a plain
idiot. Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Egypt are the places which have been arabisized i.e arabic
wasn't there language but today they speak it and consider themselves part of
the arab world. We on the other hand never had Arabic as our language, instead till
1830s (when British annexed Punjab and Sindh) the official language of courts was Persian
along with Urdu and other regional languages of Muslims.

Pakistan still officially claims pride in Ghandara Civilization which existed in Northern Punjab, KPK (and a bit of eastern Afghanistan), it still claims pride in Texila and Harrapa civilizations. Yes they need to
put more focus on these in school books but the person who wrote this article knows nothing
about whats the reality on ground.
Pakistan today was not always a part of what you consider India, (only under the Turkic kings i.e Mughals, Ghaznavids, Ghaurids, etc and under Ashoka it was). If we should focus on our history with India and not on local empires on what is today Pakistan's land ( eg Ghandara) then we should also focus on Persian Empire which ruled more than half of what is today's Pakistan. This stupid debate will go on and on. In my opinion we are doing right by highlighting Gandhara civilization as the pride of Pakistan officially rarther than focusing on empires of neighboring countries (Ashoka, Persian, Durrani, etc).

You nailed it right sir!

 

[President Camacho]

Qur'an was sent to Prophet Muhammad Peace be Upon Him in Arabic. Because at the time Arabic language was the clearest form of language to get any message across. Arabic people in Jahilya (Pre-Islam time) Mastered the language and studied their language carefully you can clearly see that in Jahilya poetry and literature.

These days the Qur'an can be and for the most part was translated to all languages of the world (maybe not in minor languages yet) You can read the Qur'an in any language I have read the English copy of the Qur'an as well to see what it is like to read it in another language and found that some things are not very clear and need require explanation but when I read it in Arabic it is far more clearer than it is in English and the message is delivered far better.

You do not need to learn Arabic as a mandate to go to heaven if that is what you mean.

Mosamania, you are Arabian. You must be well versed in Arabic. You also read Quran in English, and even detected the lack of clarity.

Since you yourself detected it, I am sure you, or any knowledgeable Arabian, can correct that and make it as clear as it should be. May be the explanations will make the book a little thicker, but with efforts, all the material can be put in there with all the clarity, right? Or is it that no matter how well written, an English Quran can never reach the clarity of an Arabic Quran?

 

[r3alist]

Any person who claims Pakistan is arabisized has peanuts in his heads and is a plain
idiot. Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Egypt are the places which have been arabisized i.e arabic
wasn't there language but today they speak it and consider themselves part of
the arab world. We on the other hand never had Arabic as our language, instead till
1830s (when British annexed Punjab and Sindh) the official language of courts was Persian
along with Urdu and other regional languages of Muslims.

Pakistan still officially claims pride in Ghandara Civilization which existed in Northern Punjab, KPK (and a bit of eastern Afghanistan), it still claims pride in Texila and Harrapa civilizations. Yes they need to
put more focus on these in school books but the person who wrote this article knows nothing
about whats the reality on ground.
Pakistan today was not always a part of what you consider India, (only under the Turkic kings i.e Mughals, Ghaznavids, Ghaurids, etc and under Ashoka it was). If we should focus on our history with India and not on local empires on what is today Pakistan's land ( eg Ghandara) then we should also focus on Persian Empire which ruled more than half of what is today's Pakistan. This stupid debate will go on and on. In my opinion we are doing right by highlighting Gandhara civilization as the pride of Pakistan officially rarther than focusing on empires of neighboring countries (Ashoka, Persian, Durrani, etc).

EXACTLY.

muse is creating a straw man.

i have never felt ARBI-ISED, i have known enough arabic to supplement my understanding of islam.

maybe its the RELIGION he has a problem with but doesnt have the guts and honesty to say it.

 

[Drawn_Sword_of_God]

should a muslim that doesn't speak arabic read the Holy Quran in a language that he understands or in arabic?
ALLAH GAVE US THE QURAN SO WE CAN UNDERSTAND IT.
the majority of pakistani dont know what they are reading because they only read in arabic. So tell me guys who is more muslim, a guy that has read the Holy Quran in arabic, but didn't understand a thing or guy that has readen the Holy Quran in a language he knows and understood the Holy Quran?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

According to muse if u can read the Holy Quran in arabic... than you have betrayed ur ancestors and ur culture... and u have been ARBABIZED!

No point in arguing with him!


And for the record.

Im proud of being a Pakistani Baluch and of our ancestors who founded great civilisations like Mehrgarh,Gandhara,Harrapa,Indus civilisation,mohenjo daro! and our culture!

 

[SQ8]

should a muslim that doesn't speak arabic read the Holy Quran in a language that he understands or in arabic?
ALLAH GAVE US THE QURAN SO WE CAN UNDERSTAND IT.
the majority of pakistani dont know what they are reading because they only read in arabic. So tell me guys who is more muslim, a guy that has read the Holy Quran in arabic, but didn't understand a thing or guy that has readen the Holy Quran in a language he knows and understood the Holy Quran?

How does he confirm that what he has read is the holy Quran??
How does he know that what another person who has read the Quran in his language has read the Quran and not another book?

 

[President Camacho]

EXACTLY.

muse is creating a straw man.

i have never felt ARBI-ISED, i have known enough arabic to supplement my understanding of islam.

maybe its the RELIGION he has a problem with but doesnt have the guts and honesty to say it.

In fact, the bold part is an example of "straw man".

The opening post actually dealt with the dilution of the indigenous culture of Pakistan. The religion in itself never was the issue in this thread, till a few tried their best to drag it in.

 

[r3alist]

In fact, the bold part is an example of "straw man".

The opening post actually dealt with the dilution of the indigenous culture of Pakistan. The religion in itself never was the issue in this thread, till a few tried their best to drag it in.

the opening post dealt with a number of issues.

but before you read the OP read the title, its ridiculous.

---------- Post added at 11:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 PM ----------

should a muslim that doesn't speak arabic read the Holy Quran in a language that he understands or in arabic?
ALLAH GAVE US THE QURAN SO WE CAN UNDERSTAND IT.
the majority of pakistani dont know what they are reading because they only read in arabic. So tell me guys who is more muslim, a guy that has read the Holy Quran in arabic, but didn't understand a thing or guy that has readen the Holy Quran in a language he knows and understood the Holy Quran?

is there a universally widely acknowledged arabic-urdu translation of the quran?

on a practical level you need to consider this.

 

[President Camacho]

According to muse if u can read the Holy Quran in arabic... than you have betrayed ur ancestors and ur culture... and u have been ARBABIZED!

No point in arguing with him!

No man, you are reading more than what is written. He, or the article, never said anything against reading the Quran in Arabic. Rather, both were against the forced religious necessity of reading the Quran in Arabic.

 

[Mosamania]

Mosamania, you are Arabian. You must be well versed in Arabic. You also read Quran in English, and even detected the lack of clarity.

Since you yourself detected it, I am sure you, or any knowledgeable Arabian, can correct that and make it as clear as it should be. May be the explanations will make the book a little thicker, but with efforts, all the material can be put in there with all the clarity, right? Or is it that no matter how well written, an English Quran can never reach the clarity of an Arabic Quran?

You can find many "Tafsir" books in English as well. And I am sure some Tafsir books were also translated in Urdu. And many knowledgeable people are still working to make it a better translation. The English Qura'an I read is a 2010 translation version it is updated each year to make it as clear as they could.

However in Arabic Nahu (The science of studying the Arabic the language) there are many things that are not available in other languages. I studied English, Japanese (I can only read Hiragana and Katakana though) Hebrew and Turkish. And all of those languages do not have what the Arabic language can offer.

 

[r3alist]

Rather, both were against the forced religious necessity of reading the Quran in Arabic.

muse is implying that pakistans current culture, whatever that may be is a fake, and that somewhere there is the real culture.

he wont go into specifics.

i am calling him out, so to speak.