Betrayed, Arabized

[Rafi]

Me too! Most Pakistani Shias are patriotic Pakistanis, & those who put anything in front of their Pakistan can move somewhere else.

Ditto - brother

---------- Post added at 09:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 PM ----------

Sure, why don't you chip in with your favourite pastime of posting youtube videos and enlighten other members of the Indian inferiority complex?

How about a poem.

“Life’s no life when honor’s left;
Man’s a man when honor’s kept.

Nation’s honor and nation’s fame;
On life they have a prior claim.

With thoughts of these I do remain;
Unvexed with cares of loss or gain.”

-Khushal Khan Khattak

 

[53fd]

I have been to parties - (in india,had a whale of a time) and the thing they ask is, always about partition, conversion etc etc. at times it can get quite embarrassing for the hosts, and they do try to change the subject.

The confusions arise when Indians think their land is thousands of years old, whereas Pakistan is only 64 years old. Confusions arise when Indians take sole ownership of the Indus Valley Civilization, when hardly none of it goes through India, whereas all of it passes through Pakistan, & most through Afghanistan (& some through Iran). Confusions arise when Indians change the name of their old cities with Muslim/foreign connotation into Hindu ones. Confusions arise when most Indian Hindus see Islam as foreign to their land, whereas Hinduism originated in present day Pakistan (the Vedas were written in Pakistan), not India; & is 'foreign' to present day India. Confusions arise when they try to Sanksritize Urdu/Hindustani into something most Indians cannot understand. Confusions arise when the British kept name "Bombay" is changed to Mumbai, but English is retained as the secondary official of India.

 

[jayron]

Many nuances in Arabic dont have equivalents..
letters can also work as words.. and vice versa.. what language will be able to mimic that accurately?
Interpretation is always according to the times. so If the interpreter keeps changing.. the original message will be lost.
and you ruin the essence.

The message of the God is what is important and not the "nuances". What plan did God have for non Arabs when he wrote the
Quran? He wrote it only for Arab people? It is like saying Christians will never know the true meaning of god till they learn Hebrew or Amharic.

 

[53fd]

India has been trying to remove the influence of the British & the West, but its population wants to Westernize in a way that is completely alien to India's traditions & cultures. Bollywood & its influence all over India is a prime example of that. Besides the obvious plagiarism from Hollywood movies, most of the things in it are completely alien to traditional Indian values. I have met plenty of Pakistani Hindus in Sindh, & they are much more staunch in their religious beliefs that most Indian Hindus I've met here in America that have come from Gujarat (as students), or other parts of India. They are much more well versed in the Gita & other Hindu traditions than Indian Hindus, who like to portray themselves as secular.

 

[Safriz]

The message of the God is what is important and not the "nuances". What plan did God have for non Arabs when he wrote the
Quran? He wrote it only for Arab people? It is like saying Christians will never know the true meaning of god till they learn Hebrew or Amharic.

works well for those who beleive in.it arabic or chinese or whatever..for the rest it wont work..
simple as that.
there are non muslims who have written books on quran and many.books.and they understant it very well..but since they dont beleive in.it..it doesnt work for them as it is meant to.

 

[Rafi]

India has been trying to remove the influence of the British & the West, but its population wants to Westernize in a way that is completely alien to India's traditions & cultures. Bollywood & its influence all over India is a prime example of that. Besides the plagiarism from Hollywood movies, most of the things in it are completely alien to traditional Indian values. I have met plenty of Pakistani Hindus in Sindh, & they are much more staunch in their religious beliefs that most Indian Hindus I've met here in America.

Pakistani Hindu's, Sikh's, Buddhists, Jews, Christians, Parsi's - are the most wonderful Patriotic people you can ever meet.

 

[Ignited Mind]

...they are much more staunch in their religious beliefs that most Indian Hindus I've met here in America that have come from Gujarat (as students), or other parts of India.

That's true.

Indian Hindus have, by and large, started moving beyond religion.

There's much more to life than religion.

We're most definitely not ashamed of that.

Religion is good but excess of anything, be it milk or religion, is always bad...always.

Pakistan's is a basket case of 'too much religion in almost everything.

 

[53fd]

That's true.

Indian Hindus have, by and large, started moving beyond religion.

There's much more to life than religion.

We're most definitely not ashamed of that.

Religion is good but excess of anything, be it milk or religion, is always bad...always.

Pakistan's is a basket case of 'too much religion in almost everything.

Of course an excess in anything is bad, including religion. Most Pakistanis do not take religion to the extreme either. However, the point is that more than religion; India has been losing its traditional values, people are resorting to something 'completely alien to the ancient land of India', & that is the sad reality.

 

[muse]

Santro asks us to be careful lest what he calls "Arabophobia" turns to "Islamophobia" - as if the two things were the same`-- Well, that's what the lead article is referring to - When some of us cannot tell the difference between Arab and Islam, then we must conclude that Pakistan are indeed betrayed.

The larger questions in the thread, the ones it seems very few have the courage to confront is whether the introduction of a alien language and culture, and a the presentation of history as a lie, is conducive to the integrity of Pakistan?

Can Pakistan be a modern integrated state with the state pushing it's population to learn a language not spoken in Pakistan?
Will Pakistan's culture be integrated with the inclusion of an alien culture??

And will the sovereignty and integrity of the Pakistan state be strengthened with it's citizens loyalties, in a different country??


Thus far in some 10 pages we have had a who is an "Indian" dialogue - lets notch it up and discuss the major themes of the lead article.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

What is the fuss about?

In my opinion such articles (and positions supportive of what the article implies) are reflective of liberal hypocrisy (which is not to say that some/many conservatives and right-wingers are not hypocrites themselves).

Whatever an individual wants to believe in or practice (whether faith, culture, language, etc.) is the choice of that individual. Civilizations and societies evolve and change, especially as they come in contact with external influences. As much as some berate the 'Arabi influence', the 'Western influence' in terms of dress, language (Hinglish and Urdlish), Music etc. is perhaps just as prevalent as any other.

Most people tend to simply accept those 'external influences', so long as they don't cross certain 'cultural boundaries' (bikinis or miniskirts for example).

Whether someone embraces Pakistan's history going back thousands of years to Gandhara and the Indus Valley civilization, or chooses to focus more on Pakistani history post-Islam, and therefore view their identity in a more 'Islamic' manner, is their choice - neither side really has any business forcing their views upon the other.

All societies adopt external influences to varying degrees - there is no 'betrayal' here.

 

[Ignited Mind]

neither side really has any business forcing their views upon the other.

That's as good as saying, "Reason has no business forcing itself upon stupidity".

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That's as good as saying, "Reason has no business forcing itself upon stupidity".

Not at all - who determines whether adopting Arabic customs, culture and language is 'stupidity' vs the perhaps far more prevalent adoption of "Western customs, culture and language'?

Conservatives would call the latter 'stupid', and liberals the former.

 

[muse]

That's as good as saying, "Reason has no business forcing itself upon stupidity".

Indeed, some, realizing that their little project is now seriously threatened, want as little light ashed on these basic issues as possible. It's note worthy that they do not have the courage to consider the issues raised in the lead article - after all, why challenge ignorance with education, why impose light on darkness.

 

[Ignited Mind]

Not at all - who determines whether adopting Arabic customs, culture and language is 'stupidity' vs the perhaps far more prevalent adoption of "Western customs, culture and language'?

I don't think that's the issue here.

The issue here is how Pakistanis wallow in their Arab connections and what not and simply ignore their roots, connections etc. to the era before they were Muslims, before even Islam had come into being.

For Pakistanis, it seems, T=0 lay at the moment Bin Qasim arrived alongwith all his arabic paraphernalia.

These is stuff that Pakistanis hold sacred like Scientists hold sacred, the Big Bang. It's as if nothing existed before that moment came to pass.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I don't think that's the issue here.

The issue here is how Pakistanis wallow in their Arab connections and what not and simply ignore their roots, connections etc. to the era before they were Muslims, before even Islam had come into being.

And as I said, what someone chooses to believe is their personal business - will you condemn and look down upon a convert from Islam to Christianity or Hinduism?

Will you condemn or look down upon an individual raised in a Muslim family in a Muslim society who chooses to consume alcohol, pork and womanize as 'wallowing in Western culture and ignoring his/her roots'?

Why are only people who focus on 'Islam and Arabia' being condemned here, when there are just as many in Pakistan and India who are 'rejecting their roots' for Western culture and influences?

---------- Post added at 01:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:39 PM ----------

muse if you want to be a Bharati please go back to New Dehli or Assam or tamilnadu or wherever you came from. Pakistan is a Muslim land with 97% strong believers Alhamdulillah. Please take your BS to Bharat as weve had enough of your BS

Now that position, as I pointed out earlier, is just as bad as the stance taken by liberals against those who feel closer to 'Islam and Arabia'.

To each their own - respect for a difference of opinion is what is important, and currently neither liberals nor conservatives are showing much respect for the other in Pakistan.