Betrayed, Arabized

[Developereo]

This is exactly the problem , do believe that your forefathers who were born before that arrival of Islam were perverts and barbarians ??

Muslims are happy that our ancestors converted. Hindus are happy that theirs didn't. Neither side has the right to criticize the other and both are happy with their choice.

There's a lot of demonization going on all around and it's wrong on both sides.

 

[muse]

Safriza

Now you have taken a difficult step - you have acknowledged that you liked about Music and dance as unIslamic - and you have confessed that you listen to music yourself -- You are now in a position where you argue that the music you don't like is unIslamic - poor Islam, you guys disrespect and and abuse it as if it was just a rag - what you like is "Islamic" what you don't like is "UnIslamic" .

does lady gaga song make you a spiritual and reminds you of Allah.and Rasool?...same way as the qawwali does?
decide yourself.

No I can't say she does, but that's not the purpose of her art - You lie and call it "islamic" and point fingers at lady Gaga ??

Please Safriz, when you get emotional about something, don't post - think for a while and then post.

---------- Post added at 08:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:14 AM ----------

There's a lot of demonization going on all around and it's wrong on both sides.

I rreally appreciate the moral confusion, the EQUIVALENCY you assign to those who debase Islam by confusing it with arab culture and those who reject such a proposition - very post modern of you - no right or wrong no good or bad but a EQUIVALENCY - right is the equal of wrong and good the equal, not the opposite, of bad

 

[Developereo]

Now barbarous brutes suggest that art is UnIslamic, that joy is unIslamic.

I agree we should vehemently reject this puritannical verison of Islam. As you noted, neither Arab culture nor Islam prohibit art.

This is just 'Wahhabization' -- plain and simple.

I rreally appreciate the moral confusion, the EQUIVALENCY you assign to those who debase Islam by confusing it with arab culture and those who reject such a proposition - very post modern of you - no right or wrong no good or bad but a EQUIVALENCY - right is the equal of wrong and good the equal, not the opposite, of bad

That statement was about the demonization of Hindus by some Pakistani Muslims, and the demonization of 'converts' by some Hindus.

 

[muse]

his is just 'Wahhabization' -- plain and simple

No not that simple - Is it good or bad ? Is it right or is it wrong?

 

[Developereo]

No not that simple - Is it good or bad ? Is it right or is it wrong?

I thought we agreed that wahhabization is alien to Pakistan and should be rejected.

As to 'right or wrong', it's for the individual to decide. I personally believe Islam allows music and art, but if they want to reject it all, fine. As long as they don't force that belief upon others.

Would I ever want to see a Pakistan without music or dance? God, no!

 

[Safriz]

Safriza

Now you have taken a difficult step - you have acknowledged that you liked about Music and dance as unIslamic - and you have confessed that you listen to music yourself -- You are now in a position where you argue that the music you don't like is unIslamic - poor Islam, you guys disrespect and and abuse it as if it was just a rag - what you like is "Islamic" what you don't like is "UnIslamic" .



No I can't say she does, but that's not the purpose of her art - You lie and call it "islamic" and point fingers at lady Gaga ??

Please Safriz, when you get emotional about something, don't post - think for a while and then post.

---------- Post added at 08:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:14 AM ----------



I rreally appreciate the moral confusion, the EQUIVALENCY you assign to those who debase Islam by confusing it with arab culture and those who reject such a proposition - very post modern of you - no right or wrong no good or bad but a EQUIVALENCY - right is the equal of wrong and good the equal, not the opposite, of bad

no i didnt say music is islamic...its forbidden.

i said the message given in qawwali is very much islamic...which it is...and yes i admit qawwali is tainted with a forbidden thing.
i listen to it keeping that in mind...and i listen to qawwali because the overall effect is of great spirituality and pushes me closer to Allah due to the words they say in qawwali...not the music...
does ladu haga does the same to you?
my love for Allah and Rasool upgrades a notch after listening to qawwali....but the misic part still remains forbidden..the spoken words of qawwali are electrifying.

 

[Safriz]

This is exactly the problem , do believe that your forefathers who were born before that arrival of Islam were perverts and barbarians ??

You know this is simply not true for the inhabitants of Indus valley civilization. The life they led were very most modern of that era.

Well,..Arabization happens when school history books tell kids that history of Pakistan begins with the arrival of muhammad bin qasim on the coast of sindh.

we follow one hadith "innamal aamalo binne yaat"
some english major may translate please..as i cannot.

to us deed is important but why its done is even more important...
our forefathers may be civilized..but they were not doing good for the sake of Allah and Rasool.
we are greatful to our converyed forefatjers that they realized the true God Allah and the last prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and passed this "faith" to us....
good deeds not done for Allah acvording to the way of Prophet (PBUH) will still send you to hell.
we are thankf to our forefathers who changed their reason of doing good....by becoming muslims..a muslim does good gor the sake of his diety Allah on the way of his/her leader prophet Mohammad.

 

[muse]

two things..

do a sin and think its bad...
or do sin and not even acknowledge that itsca sin..and be adamant that its the truth.

Azaab e Ilahii comes on the later.

when people present sins as acts of piousness.......naach gaana is forbidden in islam and thats that.....we cannot say its part of islam.

Safriz


And then Safriz says

yes i admit qawwali is tainted with a forbidden thing.
i listen to it keeping that in mind...and i listen to qawwali because the overall effect is of great spirituality and pushes me closer to Allah due to the words they say in qawwali...not the music

So something Haram pushes you to greater spirituality and towards Allah-- interesting -- and you have a problem with lady GAGA??

Safriz, is it possible that there as as many paths to Allah as there are faithful??

As to 'right or wrong', it's for the individual to decide. I personally believe Islam allows music and art, but if they want to reject it all, fine. As long as they don't force that belief upon others.

Develepero

Could not agree more

 

[T-Faz]

I suggest everyone interested in the thread , pls read the book by V. S. Naipaul called" Among the Believers: An Islamic Journey "

Here is a titbit of the book.

Look, this is an extreme generalization on the part of Naipual who is incorrectly fusing Arabic culture and norms with those of Islamic ones.

Islam as understood by the Arabs, specifically the Saudi's is vastly different to what was practiced in the subcontinent and is still practiced by a great number of Muslims. If we go by what Naipual has said here then you must also agree that it applies to all other religions of the world.

The evolution of religion lies in its interaction with other religions and cultures whereby it develops to accommodate a greater degree of responsibility. Religious scripture does not conform to a singular, myopic view. The Quran itself utilizes stories and metaphors to make a point which in essence is about correcting misdeeds and guiding the followers of Islam to the right path.

Don't mistake our criticism of Arabization or Islamization (political use of Islam) as criticism of Islam, the Islam understood by us is intrinsically about peace and goodness.

There is nothing in Islam that alters your conscience negatively, all it does is provide guidance that should make an individual better through his actions and deeds.

What has happened here is that Arabization has been incorrectly fused with Islam and many consider Arabization as the natural process of Islam. Islam and Arab culture and customs are two different things, just because Islam originated there it does not mean that it is an Arab religion. Arabic sects however have been able to influence others greatly causing this view to be solidified in the eyes of many. Remember that Arabs only account for a 20 something percent of the world Muslim population.

Look what Allama Iqbal said about this matter:

For India (the creation of Pakistan), it means security and peace resulting from an internal balance of power; for Islam, an opportunity to rid itself of the stamp that Arabian Imperialism was forced to give it, to mobilise its law, its education, its culture, and to bring them into closer contact with its own original spirit and with the spirit of modern times.”

Islamist lies about Allama Iqbal | Pak Tea House

Look at this verse from the Holy Quran which in essence is the gist of Islamic teachings and it clearly mentions that Islam is not about superficial matters which Naipaul has suggested but rather about the essence of being good.

It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and each and every act of obedience to Allah, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masakin (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and gives the Zakat, and who fulfill their covenant when they make it, and who are As-Sabirin (the patient ones, etc.) in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of fighting (during the battles). Such are the people of the truth and they are Al-Muttaqun (pious - see V.2:2).

 

[muse]

to us deed is important but why its done is even more important...
our forefathers may be civilized..but they were not doing good for the sake of Allah and Rasool.

Who is this "US"

we are greatful to our converyed forefatjers that they realized the true God Allah and the last prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and passed this "faith" to us.

faith cannot be transferred, it cannot be inherited, it can only be consciously apprehended - in other words you have to "Experience" it for yourself, it does not do to suggest that you experience it because your forefathers did.

 

[Safriz]

Safriz


And then Safriz says




So something Haram pushes you to greater spirituality and towards Allah-- interesting -- and you have a problem with lady GAGA??

Safriz, is it possible that there as as many paths to Allah as there are faithful??

Develepero

Could not agree more

no...the spoken words push me closer to my divine being Allah..not the music...music remains forbidden as it is....it just acts as a catalyst and helps in maintaining concenteration....while i abdorb the spoken words which are purely spiritual as in islamic spuritual....my reason for listening does not remain music..its the message within i am listening to...and my mind is blanking out the music.

same cannot be said about j'los hips dont lie...its a song about her hips .....

 

[muse]

Look what Allama Iqbal said about this matter:

For India (the creation of Pakistan), it means security and peace resulting from an internal balance of power; for Islam, an opportunity to rid itself of the stamp that Arabian Imperialism was forced to give it, to mobilise its law, its education, its culture, and to bring them into closer contact with its own original spirit and with the spirit of modern times.”

Islamist lies about Allama Iqbal | Pak Tea House

Look at this verse from the Holy Quran which in essence is the gist of Islamic teachings and it clearly mentions that Islam is not about superficial matters which Naipaul has suggested but rather about the essence of being good.

It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and each and every act of obedience to Allah, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masakin (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and gives the Zakat, and who fulfill their covenant when they make it, and who are As-Sabirin (the patient ones, etc.) in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of fighting (during the battles). Such are the people of the truth and they are Al-Muttaqun (pious - see V.2:2).

Curious, nothing about Jihad, nothing about hating Jews and Hindus and Christians and Buddhists - all very curious

---------- Post added at 08:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 AM ----------

my mind is blanking out the music.

Your mind is blanking out, that's for dang sure

same cannot be said about j'los hips dont lie...its a song about her hips ...

..
And you know the song, because you don't listen to music??

 

[President Camacho]

no...the spoken words push me closer to my divine being Allah..not the music...music remains forbidden as it is....it just acts as a catalyst and helps in maintaining concenteration....while i abdorb the spoken words which are purely spiritual as in islamic spuritual....my reason for listening does not remain music..its the message within i am listening to...and my mind is blanking out the music.

same cannot be said about j'los hips dont lie...its a song about her hips .....

Hey man, why don't you just get the lyrics online? Don't listen, just read them, then you won't have to give in to the forbidden pleasure of music.

 

[muse]

That way he would be deprived of the opportunity for his mind to go blank?

 

[Safriz]

Hey man, why don't you just get the lyrics online? Don't listen, just read them, then you won't have to give in to the forbidden pleasure of music.

hey president....
come on...google dies not replace a himan being...now does it...?
qawwali is not an integral part of islam..and if i can do away without it and that wont be a sin...but since it has good religious effects on me..i keep listening to it...while admitting that music is forbidden..

say this to a "bhajann" listener....