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Bangladesh urges Pakistan apology for 1971 ‘crimes’

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The historical relationship between a German and a Jew is not equitable with that between a Pakistani and Bangladeshi.

Forefathers of both laters (including Sk. Mujib and Bhutto) strived together to establish Pakistan, and fought the war of 1965. In many graves around Lahore and Sialkot are lying heroes of Bangladesh side by side with those of Pakistan. Together they established PAF supremacy in the western sky. A distance of 1000 miles vanished when both caught the rope of Islam.

The leaders in Govt. and Army forgot what Islam means, and disparity started---creating hate and distrust in between---so far that an election was overlooked and army was let loose. Islam vanished from between us.

If we again want that Islam back into us, and sincerely want 'ummah' back in place, we have to think of the Islamic way of mending fences, and Islam will tell us who should play the major role in this process, and how.

German and Jews can not guide us in this particular case.

Salam brother Straight
Always appreciate your unique posts. Is it also possible for modern Bangladesh to accept the fact that we also got played by kaffir enemy that stained our soil with our brothers blood(East or west)?

Perhaps we should extend our hand in the light of pure Islam and ask our west brother to pass a joint resolution to recognize our wrong doing(both sides) and ask forgiveness to almighty Allah instead one sided apology and work for rebuild our long lost glorious Islamic empire Insh'Allah.

What say brother?
 
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Perhaps we should think about this honest statement from an Indian and realize that reunification of pak-bangla is the only antidote to Indian aggression and our dignifying survival.

Islamic army with nuke on both wings....Kalas :lol::rofl:

good luck friend :toast_sign:
 
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Instead of coming out with your precious one liners,it would be helpful to point out how I don't know my history well.


As you say.

The main reason for india joining the war was the refugees which were pouring into the india from bangladesh which put great strain on the economy.

Breaking up pakistan for strategic reasons was a secondary motive only

But ofcourse you won't beleive that cause you are too dogmatic and would rather believe some crap
conspiracy theory rather than some rational explanation
 
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Musharraf's apology is considered as a official statement of Pakistan as he was the CE at that time.

Ask the benglalis what they want to hear from us and let the President and PM say it on bangladesh TV.
Get rid of the issue once and for all and maybe if the bengalis are clever there will do a gesture in return.


See the history of islam; at the battle of karbala; Zainul Abideen AS (son of Hussain AS) gave water to hurmala who had killed Ali Asghar AS with a spear. Why is that sense of forgiveness missing amongst muslims?

Have we asked the bengalis for forgiveness?
 
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Have we asked the bengalis for forgiveness?

This being the point we could also have asked the bengalis to apologise to Pakistan for splitting the country into two; which left a deep mark on pakistani nationalism which can be seen till today. We didn't; we accepted their freedom and embraced them as brothers and started diplomatic ties with them.
 
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Ask the benglalis what they want to hear from us and let the President and PM say it on bangladesh TV.
Get rid of the issue once and for all and maybe if the bengalis are clever there will do a gesture in return.
Have we asked the bengalis for forgiveness?

Sure they will....
 
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Salam brother Straight
Always appreciate your unique posts. Is it also possible for modern Bangladesh to accept the fact that we also got played by kaffir enemy that stained our soil with our brothers blood(East or west)?

Perhaps we should extend our hand in the light of pure Islam and ask our west brother to pass a joint resolution to recognize our wrong doing(both sides) and ask forgiveness to almighty Allah instead one sided apology and work for rebuild our long lost glorious Islamic empire Insh'Allah.

What say brother?

We have to consider (1) What Islam stipulates (2) What are the ground realities in both countries after all that happened.

ISLAM will not simplify the case just by saying both stained their hands with blood so both are even, and you two shake hands again.

Islam will look into all the crevices where rights have been violated since early days. It is the continued policy of disparity that ultimately broke Pakistan, and Bangladeshis, too, know it as well. And that too was done under the banner of Islam.

On the other hand, under the banner of secularism, India fortified all its states by practising parity as much they could.

Unlike politicians, if you really want both to come as close as possible thru any agreed format, you have to give now Islam a real chance to play. In case of disparity, the violator / beneficiary has to put the first step as Islam stipulates. If some one wants to use Islam as a banner only to gain global strategical benefit, this time it is no longer workable.

GROUND REALITIES are much different when Bangladesh finally could stand from the scratch, cleansed its own house to some extent, provided for last 38 years amenities of life to its vast population from a meagre land without any assistance from the other party. Even alone Bangladesh shaked out Indian Army from the neck, taught BSF few lessons, and got a lead in RMG sector, made some reputation in UN and over all these years braved ravishing cyclones and floods, and still resiliently surviving with some color, and still pushing hard to proceed. Bangladesh has simply toughened with a stern message: YOU HAVE TO BE FAR STRONGER THAN FLOOD & CYCLONE TO WIPE ME OUT.

If they could come this far alone, they can go long way alone: Just we have to become sincere and committed Pro-Bangladeshis.

Only Islam says Bangladesh and similar muslim countries to forge an ummah---not only with Pakistan but also with other Islamic nations. Logically, Pakistan should be the first one to try if they too are ready.

But, an ominous question will be put by Bangladesh people : Is it a 2nd time mistake in the name of Islam ?

Therefore, somehow you will have to prove that Pakistan has changed. You and me can not do that unless Pakistan people & Govt display convincingly first what within them have changed towards good. Always "apology' does wonder with both the Khaleque and the Makhluque.

A few Bangladeshis may say: Go, first get it done with Iran and Afghanistan who are your next door neighbors.

How do you show to them that Pakistan has changed particularly towards Bangladeshi people when you do not even feel that an apology is in order ?

If they say, "Why should we ? Forget it. We are fine alone, and will fight India and everyone alone". OK! OK!! It means the time for forging ummah is not ripe--at least with Pakistan.

To Bangladeshis, this unwillingness will not look like a loss as they have already learnt in a hard way how to live fightingly alone with India at side, and are becoming more brazened day by day.

Life is still more peaceful and travel around Bangldesh is more safer than in Pakistan. Clouds are now much heavier in Pakistan sky. If not for Islam, it is better then to walk our own respective ways.

If it is for the sake of Islam, then it has to start from where disparity started 60 years back. Apology is the minimum to start with.

Otherwise, Bangladeshis will not bite the bait of ummah. Then any serious co-operation is a matter of convenience as is with any other country---Islamic or Secular. That is entirely a different scenario.
 
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We have to consider (1) What Islam stipulates (2) What are the ground realities in both countries after all that happened.

ISLAM will not simplify the case just by saying both stained their hands with blood so both are even, and you two shake hands again.

Islam will look into all the crevices where rights have been violated since early days. It is the continued policy of disparity that ultimately broke Pakistan, and Bangladeshis, too, know it as well. And that too was done under the banner of Islam.

On the other hand, under the banner of secularism, India fortified all its states by practising parity as much they could.

Unlike politicians, if you really want both to come as close as possible thru any agreed format, you have to give now Islam a real chance to play. In case of disparity, the violator / beneficiary has to put the first step as Islam stipulates. If some one wants to use Islam as a banner only to gain global strategical benefit, this time it is no longer workable.

GROUND REALITIES are much different when Bangladesh finally could stand from the scratch, cleansed its own house to some extent, provided for last 38 years amenities of life to its vast population from a meagre land without any assistance from the other party. Even alone Bangladesh shaked out Indian Army from the neck, taught BSF few lessons, and got a lead in RMG sector, made some reputation in UN and over all these years braved ravishing cyclones and floods, and still resiliently surviving with some color, and still pushing hard to proceed. Bangladesh has simply toughened with a stern message: YOU HAVE TO BE FAR STRONGER THAN FLOOD & CYCLONE TO WIPE ME OUT.

If they could come this far alone, they can go long way alone: Just we have to become sincere and committed Pro-Bangladeshis.

Only Islam says Bangladesh and similar muslim countries to forge an ummah---not only with Pakistan but also with other Islamic nations. Logically, Pakistan should be the first one to try if they too are ready.

But, an ominous question will be put by Bangladesh people : Is it a 2nd time mistake in the name of Islam ?

Therefore, somehow you will have to prove that Pakistan has changed. You and me can not do that unless Pakistan people & Govt display convincingly first what within them have changed towards good. Always "apology' does wonder with both the Khaleque and the Makhluque.

A few Bangladeshis may say: Go, first get it done with Iran and Afghanistan who are your next door neighbors.

How do you show to them that Pakistan has changed particularly towards Bangladeshi people when you do not even feel that an apology is in order ?

If they say, "Why should we ? Forget it. We are fine alone, and will fight India and everyone alone". OK! OK!! It means the time for forging ummah is not ripe--at least with Pakistan.

To Bangladeshis, this unwillingness will not look like a loss as they have already learnt in a hard way how to live fightingly alone with India at side, and are becoming more brazened day by day.

Life is still more peaceful and travel around Bangldesh is more safer than in Pakistan. Clouds are now much heavier in Pakistan sky. If not for Islam, it is better then to walk our own respective ways.

If it is for the sake of Islam, then it has to start from where disparity started 60 years back. Apology is the minimum to start with.

Otherwise, Bangladeshis will not bite the bait of ummah. Then any serious co-operation is a matter of convenience as is with any other country---Islamic or Secular. That is entirely a different scenario.

The only guys I hear getting worked up on this ummah theory are pakistanis and bangladeshis...ever wondered why...because they are in their self created messes and instead of trying to solve their problems by working logically on them they try to "wish" away their problems by believing on a fairy tale story no other country gives a **** for. Stirring up emotions may be good for family reunions, but not for the serious business of nation building. I guess you still haven't learnt the lesson from inserting religion into politics, better wake up soon.

Oh and Al zakir, calling Indians kaffir is pathetic, probably you are alive because of us. May be the next time you people get slaughtered, we'll just be happy to close our doors and watch.

Regards.
 
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The hatred and suspicion erupt and solidify from a single set of questions---Why the people of West pakistan did not raise any protest to atrocity excess during '71? Were all of them had been so oblivious of the disparity and later what had been happening to 'so-called' brothers ? Why still many Pak brothers are arroragnt enough as well to consider themselves 'better muslims' [which infact confirms inferiority] ?

How about the fact that there was a media black out in West Pakistan and the public was only getting information that the GoP in the West was releasing? The news of surrender was a massive shock to the West Pakistanis because they had no idea what was going on. The only thing that West Pakistanis were seeing were dead bodies of officers, men and other civilians who had gone to East Pakistan being shipped back. Eventually this practice was stopped in order to ensure that there was no backlash in the West against the East Pakistanis. If the people knew about the excesses, there would have been soul-searching, however the population in the West neither had the media nor any other information outlets to let them know what truly was transpiring.

The basic rule of humility in Islam is that you consider yourself to be the most sinful. So please do not take an individual's point of view or that of a group of people and stereotype all of the Pakistanis with it.


Unless sure of any tangible posibble change in the mind-set (stemmed from above questions), both Bangladesh & Pakistan people should perhaps better stay at arm's length till it is determined whether such co-op is desired for the sake of Islam or advantage in global political strategy ?

They are at an arms length and will stay at it, but why the insistence for apologies and war crimes tribunal only when AL come to power? Why are the other BD governments willing to take relations to new levels yet AL insists, as soon as coming to power, to bring up this same issue? Are the other BD governments a bunch of traitors for foregoing this demand or are they maybe a more pragmatic bunch who realize that the son is not liable for the sins of his father?

If it turns out to be a political move (using Islam as slogan) as was in the past, who knows what further sufferings may befall on Bangladesh in the name of making out the loss.

As mentioned before, carry on with your ways. Nobody in Pakistan is asking for a merger of the two countries. You do what you need to, we will do what we must. The fact of the matter is that the two countries do not really need each other. If the relations are good then its one less issue to worry about in a region which is already so messed up. If not, then so be it.


If it is for the cause of Islam, then admittance of disparity for years and atrocities of the past, and shedding off of arrogance of the present---or even an apology---will never appear as a difficult issue, and thus sincerety will be displayed.

This is disappointing but also a norm on the part of the BDs. You will always come across Pakistanis who will have a different view and opinion about the 71 issue, however why is only one side of the opinion taken up to judge the rest of Pakistan with? I have come across "foaming at the mouth" anti-Pakistani Bangladeshis, I have come across arrogant secularist BDs, and I have come across extremely friendly, down to earth BDs. However my opinion of East Pakistanis and BDs has always been a positive one. Maybe this is what is needed on the part of BDs too. On this one specific point, do realize that the ones who get to post are but a small portion of the Pakistani population. Given that even amongst those Pakistanis who post about East Pakistan and BD, there are differing views should give you an insight that not all Pakistanis are arrogant and insensitive. You have suffered, we have suffered. We have apologized at the level of the head of state. None of the West Pakistanis who have lost their loved ones have heard anything of sympathy from the BD side, yet we want to move beyond the past acrimony. Hardening of attitudes will take us down the same path as that of the times during which previous AL governments have ruled.


This forum displays that many Pak brothers do not admit the wrongs and are averse to apology.

When does "many" make it all? How many BDs apologize for the pain and suffering inflicted by some of them (their EP forefathers) upon the W Pakistanis? My friend, you are on a great slippery slope of generalization here. This thread is open because people in Pakistan realize that what went on in 1971 was wrong. It should not have gone the way it did. No less than the President of Pakistan has made an official apology and requested in the spirit of reconciliation to forgive and move on.
This mist of mysteries are preventing many Bangladeshis to extend out their hands, yet most of those including myself prefer 'co-operation of the highest order & scale' with Pakistan & its people---for the cause of Islam.

When the fog of nation-hood lifts, then the real sense prevails. The acrimony is due to our nationalism...there is a need to look beyond nationalism and realize that what happened was nothing but blue on blue. The day we all realize it, that is when this reconciliation will happen.
 
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The only guys I hear getting worked up on this ummah theory are pakistanis and bangladeshis...ever wondered why...because they are in their self created messes and instead of trying to solve their problems by working logically on them they try to "wish" away their problems by believing on a fairy tale story no other country gives a **** for. Stirring up emotions may be good for family reunions, but not for the serious business of nation building. I guess you still haven't learnt the lesson from inserting religion into politics, better wake up soon.

Oh and Al zakir, calling Indians kaffir is pathetic, probably you are alive because of us. May be the next time you people get slaughtered, we'll just be happy to close our doors and watch.

Regards.

You only hear the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis talk about the ummah because of the Muslim countries, these are the only two where what their masses feel and say gets heard outside. The rest of the Islamic world has totalitarian governments that keep a very tight leash on what is said and what is allowed.

The fact that you do not know the feelings of the Muslims on the street is the problem here. Any average Malaysian, Indonesian, Saudi, Egyptian, Pakistani, Morrocan, Syrian, Bangladeshi feels a natural affinity and love for the overall Islamic ummah.

Care for ummah is not the reason for our lack of development, its the fact that we have forgotten the perfection in everything that is required of us by Islam.

Lastly, do not take offense to the term Kafir. In arabic, it means one who rejects. Obviously one who is not a Muslim rejects the teachings of Islam thus is termed Kafir. This is the root and the meaning of the word.
 
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We have to consider (1) What Islam stipulates (2) What are the ground realities in both countries after all that happened.

ISLAM will not simplify the case just by saying both stained their hands with blood so both are even, and you two shake hands again.

Islam will look into all the crevices where rights have been violated since early days. It is the continued policy of disparity that ultimately broke Pakistan, and Bangladeshis, too, know it as well. And that too was done under the banner of Islam.

How so was it done under the banner of Islam? If anything, the problems between West Pakistanis and East Pakistanis resulted because of ethnicity, not Islam which held them together.

Islam definitely looks into all of the crevices, however Islam also puts the blame and liability only on the transgressors. Not their offspring or their clansmen or countrymen.

On the other hand, under the banner of secularism, India fortified all its states by practising parity as much they could.

This is your perception. Your assumption is that Islamic unity does not work, while secularism does. Well that has to be seen. There isn't enough data available to either prove or disprove what you suggest here. If past is anything to work with, both have worked however the prevailing circumstances were different in the past.

Unlike politicians, if you really want both to come as close as possible thru any agreed format, you have to give now Islam a real chance to play. In case of disparity, the violator / beneficiary has to put the first step as Islam stipulates. If some one wants to use Islam as a banner only to gain global strategical benefit, this time it is no longer workable.

Yes indeed. However how many of the violators are around? Why is Pakistan as a nation constantly held hostage to the wrongs of those who have gone before? Lets not try to make this into a perpetual issue of guilt of the sort put on display in Germany for the Jews. Wrongs were indeed committed, but it was neither with the intent of the Germans nor of the scale suffered by the Jews.

If you want to talk about Islam, then do understand that Islam is very clear about the responsibility of the sin. Those who have committed such crimes are not in the government of Pakistan, they do not serve in the Pakistani armed forces and they are not treated with any honour in Pakistan. Speaking from an Islamic point of view, they have coming what they deserve.
GROUND REALITIES are much different when Bangladesh finally could stand from the scratch, cleansed its own house to some extent, provided for last 38 years amenities of life to its vast population from a meagre land without any assistance from the other party. Even alone Bangladesh shaked out Indian Army from the neck, taught BSF few lessons, and got a lead in RMG sector, made some reputation in UN and over all these years braved ravishing cyclones and floods, and still resiliently surviving with some color, and still pushing hard to proceed. Bangladesh has simply toughened with a stern message: YOU HAVE TO BE FAR STRONGER THAN FLOOD & CYCLONE TO WIPE ME OUT.

If they could come this far alone, they can go long way alone: Just we have to become sincere and committed Pro-Bangladeshis.

We are happy for BD and the achievements of BDs. Can you say the same about us?
Only Islam says Bangladesh and similar muslim countries to forge an ummah---not only with Pakistan but also with other Islamic nations. Logically, Pakistan should be the first one to try if they too are ready.

Ummah is there, has always been there, and will remain there no matter how you look at it. A clear display of this ummah is when you see people on the streets of Dhaka come out in demonstrations when people are butchered in the streets of Gaza. This is the concept of ummah. Ummah does not necessitate unification of countries into a single unified polity. That is way off, however the ground work to a power block is by way of sharing in each other's grief and feeling the losses suffered by the ummah around the world.
But, an ominous question will be put by Bangladesh people : Is it a 2nd time mistake in the name of Islam ?

There was no mistake. The 1971 issue had nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with ethnicity which caused problems for the people. BD has made mistakes with democracy, with secularism and no doubt Pakistan did the same with ethnicity and sub-nationalism. We all paid for it, but this was not a failure in the name of Islam. The detractors of the concept of a Muslim polity will always use this example to put down Islam and polish up secularism when the fact is that life has gone on fairly well under both Islamic and secular systems of governance if and when the conditions were right. No system is perfect because those implementing the system are not perfect. Lets try to understand this issue from that point of view.

Therefore, somehow you will have to prove that Pakistan has changed. You and me can not do that unless Pakistan people & Govt display convincingly first what within them have changed towards good. Always "apology' does wonder with both the Khaleque and the Makhluque.

The problem here is that no apology is good enough. Those who have fought in this conflict and the Pakistani nation have been represented by the President of Pakistan, in an official capacity, in rendering an apology but its not good enough or has not been accepted by the BDs in earnest. The issue here is that you are asking an apology from those who had no part to play in the 1971 crises. You mention the Islamic requirements on the issue of justice, but then leave out the fact that the Pakistan of today is not represented by those who committed and abetted the excesses.
What we will not accept is to be seen like the Germans of the day who, despite numerous apologies, are still on the hook for crimes against Jews that they did not commit (their forefather's did).

A few Bangladeshis may say: Go, first get it done with Iran and Afghanistan who are your next door neighbors.

Not sure what is to be done here. Nobody in Pakistan is asking for a re-unification so not sure where the above fits in?

How do you show to them that Pakistan has changed particularly towards Bangladeshi people when you do not even feel that an apology is in order ?

So what did Musharraf do if it was not an apology?

If they say, "Why should we ? Forget it. We are fine alone, and will fight India and everyone alone". OK! OK!! It means the time for forging ummah is not ripe--at least with Pakistan.

Well nobody is forcing anything on BD. But realize that this insistence, despite a formal apology and the fact that none of the perpetrators of excesses are around any longer, does not give much room to either side. Nobody on Pakistan side has said, "Why should we?". Musharraf was straight forward type of a person who had taken part in the 1971 war. If he was candid enough to apologize then maybe BDs should also realize that we have stepped up and done what we can be expected to do. Holding the current Pakistani generation responsible for the wrongs of some in the past is flawed in my opinion.


To Bangladeshis, this unwillingness will not look like a loss as they have already learnt in a hard way how to live fightingly alone with India at side, and are becoming more brazened day by day.

I hope you do not have to fight anyone, however its never a bad thing that you learn to live alone. its certainly not a loss for anyone if you decide to go your way (we have been ever since the independence of BD). However, interestingly enough, this specific issue becomes a big deal every time the Awami League party comes to power in BD. I am sure there is considerable political point scoring to be achieved with this. Otherwise relations get better and warmer between Pakistan and BD year over year.

Life is still more peaceful and travel around Bangldesh is more safer than in Pakistan. Clouds are now much heavier in Pakistan sky. If not for Islam, it is better then to walk our own respective ways.

The clouds that are over Pakistan are due to the physical location of Pakistan and BD and EP were spared from most of the mess even in the past. As I have said earlier, nobody is suggesting reunification, only let the bygones be bygones and focus on the future. Maybe you take comfort in Pakistan's misfortune by pointing out the above, rest assured, us Pakistanis feel the pain everytime there is a cyclone or even during this BDR mutiny, folks in Pakistan felt affinity with the BD Army.

If it is for the sake of Islam, then it has to start from where disparity started 60 years back. Apology is the minimum to start with.

Apology has been communicated at the highest level. Now its up to the BDs to look at the future for the betterment of the two peoples. Lets get the MFN status going, lets get the business cooperation up and running. Lets get people-people contacts going and you will see that the rest of the stuff will fall into place very nicely. The Pakistan of today has nothing but goodwill for BD and would like to see the same reciprocated by the BD side.

Otherwise, Bangladeshis will not bite the bait of ummah. Then any serious co-operation is a matter of convenience as is with any other country---Islamic or Secular. That is entirely a different scenario.

If you invoke Islam then do realize my point about where the responsibility lies. It does not lie with the Pakistani nation of the day or the government or the armed forces of Pakistan of the day. All that is being suggested here is cooperation (a term which means help/assistance/benefit to both sides).
 
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This being the point we could also have asked the bengalis to apologise to Pakistan for splitting the country into two; which left a deep mark on pakistani nationalism which can be seen till today. We didn't; we accepted their freedom and embraced them as brothers and started diplomatic ties with them.

Or the bengalis could say it was us that split pakistan up by not accepting the results of the vote.
 
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Sure they will....

Are you being sarcastic?

Even they dont respond to pakistans apology so what!.....it will be another issue the pro indian elements can not bring up to rally support against a confederation of pakistan-bangladesh......and if your in bangladesh you can call it the confederation of bangladesh-pakistan.
 
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Or the bengalis could say it was us that split pakistan up by not accepting the results of the vote.

It indeed was the West Pakistanis who did not accept the results. We were on the wrong on that count. But then the "we" part is a general term. None of those who made the wrong calls are around any longer. Yahya and Bhutto are both dead as is Mujeeb-ur-Rehman, yet the acrimony lingers unfortunately.
 
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You only hear the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis talk about the ummah because of the Muslim countries, these are the only two where what their masses feel and say gets heard outside. The rest of the Islamic world has totalitarian governments that keep a very tight leash on what is said and what is allowed.

The fact that you do not know the feelings of the Muslims on the street is the problem here. Any average Malaysian, Indonesian, Saudi, Egyptian, Pakistani, Morrocan, Syrian, Bangladeshi feels a natural affinity and love for the overall Islamic ummah.

Care for ummah is not the reason for our lack of development, its the fact that we have forgotten the perfection in everything that is required of us by Islam.

Lastly, do not take offense to the term Kafir. In arabic, it means one who rejects. Obviously one who is not a Muslim rejects the teachings of Islam thus is termed Kafir. This is the root and the meaning of the word.

The term kafir may mean one thing in dictionary, but its general usage is directed towards creating religious hatred towards the one who is termed such, and therefore my objection.

So you mean that ummah exists just in thoughts of people but when time to action comes they tend to ignore it, don\'t hear about it much when it comes to actions by nations, just some rantings on a board pretty much what the ummah is relegated to.

My point was that you can have religion for personal reasons, but as a nation, everybody looks at its own interest first rather than a fictional brotherhood.
 
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