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Bangladesh the recent economical miracle

They need them now per WB as they have grown
In 1998 when motor ways was built even the gt road wasnt double

Single motorway since 90's till 2015 isn't to blame for Pakistan economy mess. Terrorism, siasi intekhsam is. These projects payback in toll tax. Its not like BISP where billions are thrown by state without any return. Make Pakistan investment friendly by getting rid of terrorism and you will see the results in 10 years.

Royals are on a visit meanwhile bomb just went off in Quetta.
 
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Wars of 1948,1965,1999.
soviet afghan war 1989.
war on terror 2001-2019.
afghan refugees.
2005 earthquakes.
2007,8,9 floods.
defence budget of 11 billion due to a security state every year.
150 billion dollars loss to economy in war.
70k people died.
kashmir issue,internal and external issues given as a gift while creating pakistan.
no border between afghan and pakistan.
afghan being the warzone neighbour for ages.
iran is in turmoil.
still pakistan gives a damn , i think is it the most resilient nation on planet earth, its people have fought migration massacre to natural disasters to terrorism to corruption and energy breadown to suicide bombings to target killings to economic meltdowns to war ready enthusiams.....nah u cant compare it with bengalis...we have a diff gene pool and that is very tough mind you...
 
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Wars of 1948,1965,1999.
soviet afghan war 1989.
war on terror 2001-2019.
afghan refugees.
2005 earthquakes.
2007,8,9 floods.
defence budget of 11 billion due to a security state every year.
150 billion dollars loss to economy in war.
70k people died.
kashmir issue,internal and external issues given as a gift while creating pakistan.
no border between afghan and pakistan.
afghan being the warzone neighbour for ages.
iran is in turmoil.
still pakistan gives a damn , i think is it the most resilient nation on planet earth, its people have fought migration massacre to natural disasters to terrorism to corruption and energy breadown to suicide bombings to target killings to economic meltdowns to war ready enthusiams.....nah u cant compare it with bengalis...we have a diff gene pool and that is very tough mind you...
Mayoos tou woh ho jiska Rabb na ho
 
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Ah come on guys, don't feel so impressed this is not a WEF video this is a propaganda material from WEF opinions forum. Big difference, while they have improved their exports, they have better literacy figures, lot of infrastructure is being built but that's it. Had it been a miracle there would have a reverse migration of bengalis in Karachi and elsewhere back to bangladesh, have a look at their export mix from here:

https://oec.world/en/profile/country/bgd/

over 70% is garments, low cost labour work.

Has the quality of life improved yes, but from which baseline, what is the quality of life and food security in Pakistan forget the stupid NGOs data the ground realities are different. Google "daulatdia" find me an equivalent place elsewhere may be india but not Pakistan.

We have our share of issues but we dont need to follow their example, unless we want to really destroy the quality of life of our people. Before completion of next decade will be in exports big times including VAS.

Thanks but cant be impressed with them.

This is bangladesh export complexity:View attachment 584066
and this is Pakistan's export complexity
View attachment 584068
Compare both of them and smile and thank Allah.

Very good points. Actually if you dig beyond brochures, there is lot of systematic problems with BD too....low export diversity is just one. A lot of the problems are repressed by their govt + media compared to regional average too.

In the end there need to be lot more gestation of sound policy across the whole region and better transparency to be lot more responsive to issues as they arise...esp with focus of preventing problems (rather than often expensive ad hoc curing), so the natural elasticity/dynamic nature of a developing country is harnessed effectively.
 
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Very good points. Actually if you dig beyond brochures, there is lot of systematic problems with BD too....low export diversity is just one. A lot of the problems are repressed by their govt + media compared to regional average too.

In the end there need to be lot more gestation of sound policy across the whole region and better transparency to be lot more responsive to issues as they arise...esp with focus of preventing problems (rather than often expensive ad hoc curing), so the natural elasticity/dynamic nature of a developing country is harnessed effectively.

There's a saying in my ancestral punjabi "give a silver bowl to a showoff/cheapster and he will burst his tummy due to excessive intake of water." just so that he can showoff his posession.

It's the same with Bangladeshis, people keep saying Bangladesh has improved in exports, I always ask from which baseline. Majority of exports are in the apparel category which is basically medium to low skill area highly competitive. Companies have moved to Bangladesh due to cheapest labor and of course daulatdia (pun intended).

If at all we have to look at an economic miracle why not Singapore of 68 and today, Malaysia of 80s and today, turkey of 15 years ago and today. for that matter why not Vietnam, why we have to look at a hegemony whose populace is marred with gross inferiority complex and little success in exports is now coming out as pure bigotry, some of their idiots on this forum are talking about overtaking India by 2030, bigotry and delusion suits them.
Minie Me (Austin Powers) challenging Andre the Giant. Well guess their next target will be China/USA or Germany?
 
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success stories


the miracle of han river . south korea . going from war ravaged to the most hi tech country on the planet .

Wirtschaftswunder . the economic turnaround of west germany post ww2 . maker of hi quality mercedes vehicles and SIEMENs electrical S/G

chinese SEZs . shenzhen, wuhan, dalian, qingdao . from marshy villages catching fish in 1978 to electronics hardware hub of the world. tencent, HUAWEI , OPPO, TP LINK , xiaomi


sorry , BD with its 40bn textile exports doesnt impress me,
 
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There's a saying in my ancestral punjabi "give a silver bowl to a showoff/cheapster and he will burst his tummy due to excessive intake of water." just so that he can showoff his posession.

It's the same with Bangladeshis, people keep saying Bangladesh has improved in exports, I always ask from which baseline. Majority of exports are in the apparel category which is basically medium to low skill area highly competitive. Companies have moved to Bangladesh due to cheapest labor and of course daulatdia (pun intended).

If at all we have to look at an economic miracle why not Singapore of 68 and today, Malaysia of 80s and today, turkey of 15 years ago and today. for that matter why not Vietnam, why we have to look at a hegemony whose populace is marred with gross inferiority complex and little success in exports is now coming out as pure bigotry, some of their idiots on this forum are talking about overtaking India by 2030, bigotry and delusion suits them.
Minie Me (Austin Powers) challenging Andre the Giant. Well guess their next target will be China/USA or Germany?

I see a good healthy talk between us on these subjects in the future :) ....yes I share lot of your basic take on these things....having looked into lot of argument, counter argument...and then having to dig out the actual quality vetted data.
 
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I see a good healthy talk between us on these subjects in the future :) ....

Of course we can, as long as we stay away from shoving our ultra nationalist opinions down the throat of other person with different nationality having 180 degrees variation in certain opinions.

BTW: "Got Mitt Uns" Richard fox or some other author I forgot.
 
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Very good points. Actually if you dig beyond brochures, there is lot of systematic problems with BD too....low export diversity is just one. A lot of the problems are repressed by their govt + media compared to regional average too.

In the end there need to be lot more gestation of sound policy across the whole region and better transparency to be lot more responsive to issues as they arise...esp with focus of preventing problems (rather than often expensive ad hoc curing), so the natural elasticity/dynamic nature of a developing country is harnessed effectively.
tbh I think one of the fundamental problems with Pakistan was the subsidization of elite living.

When there was US aid, we (i.e., middle and upper class) used it to import nice cars, TVs, etc.

When there was no US aid, we (i.e., middle and upper class) got the gov't to take out loans.

I was reading through WikiLeaks and it was just insane how many times "balance of payment issues" came up since the 1950s! It makes you wonder, had Pakistan been an oil or gas rich country, how different would it have been in the end; I bet we'd look a lot like Venezuela and Nigeria.

One thing you can appreciate about India is that for a period (30-40 years), the elites squeezed their belts and didn't enjoy foreign luxuries. It was a period of crappy cars and what have you, but India built some kind of real industrial basis upon which it can do a lot more than Pakistan today.

In fact, as much as I blame Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto for killing investor spirit in Pakistan (which he did), the subsidization factor did its part in preventing its revival. If not for aid and loans, I imagine we'd invest internally again, and with time, get our counterparts to Tata, Reliance, etc (albeit 15-20 years later).
 
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Of course we can, as long as we stay away from shoving our ultra nationalist opinions down the throat of other person with different nationality having 180 degrees variation in certain opinions.

BTW: "Got Mitt Uns" Richard fox or some other author I forgot.

I am all for that...in fact I came here to engage on quality material debate/discussion past the usual stuff most members seem inclined to these days.

Gott mit uns, not sure which authors have quoted or used it....but its a Prussian/German military motto "God with us". Their militaristic history and tradition has appealed to me, studied it quite extensively and I also appreciate the irony in that every side says this in the end.

If not for aid and loans, I imagine we'd invest internally again

This is very key actually to understanding the whole problem in the end. If you think about it, price of currency (relative to others, i.e exchange rate) is determined by its supply/demand in the world at large...set about largely because it is legal tender only in the source country (and the defacto world currency is USD...an interesting exception, but a larger story to get into).

The basic force then driving this is how much you demand from the world compared to what they demand from you (as far as goods + services that both have on offer).

As a developing country, since one is relatively behind the world average (hence developing)....there is always going to be more structural raw demand from the rest of the world's goods+services compared to what you can supply to them (or they demand from you).

This means generally the currency you print will be shaped by this interaction in the mid and long term esp if you internally "favour" consumption over saving (most noticeably evidenced by current account deficit).

Current account deficit is not a bad thing (intrinsically by merely existing, which is somewhat ignorantly picked up on by lot of people) as it just weakens your currency to a new equilibirum by way of reverse flow in the capital account (current + capital have to add to zero).

But what is a problem is how that capital flow composition looks like.

Aid and loans puts the raw scope in the hands of the govt+bureaucracy for that capital flow. The govt and bureaucracy in developing countries are varied degree of mess as far as institutional crediblity and efficiency goes....so often this is where the elastic "status quo" finds room to operate and perpetuate as far as the raw numbers go.

If you have no aid and loans (or minimal) which are essentially part of the capital flow process (generated from current account deficit pressure), basically the capital flow will take on hue of more private player/business interaction (who tend to value basic economic sense lot more and are more attuned to efficiency and reality on ground etc).

It is a basic institutional question and strategic decision. How much is the govt essentially willing to forego macro and micro control of capital account flow and pressure. Generally the more institutionally weak a country is, the more it has root psychology/strategy for its govt (and grey area of oligarch top dogs and underlying power centres) to keep tight hold of as much of this capital flow as possible (hence loans and aid reliance and their general deployment on raw infra rather than production, rather than FDI, FPI etc which tend to focus on production first and infra backlog after). India compared to Pakistan is interesting insight in this....Indian institutional framework and private sector raw scope (which you mention in your post) and standards/exposure determining that is largely quite below the world average...but its better than Pakistan's in the current timeframe...so yes the results bear out. Pakistan ultimately needs a deep cleanse of real deep set fundamental reforms (in the institutions and bureaucracy especially) to sort this out structurally....otherwise it just matter of noise of the day + musical chairs (both inside and outside the country) layering on top in trivial (more noise generating) kind of way with no real instrumental change.

@Oscar @Chak Bamu @VCheng @ps3linux @The Accountant
 
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Pakistan ultimately needs a deep cleanse of real deep set fundamental reforms (in the institutions and bureaucracy especially) to sort this out structurally....otherwise it just matter of noise of the day + musical chairs (both inside and outside the country) layering on top in trivial (more noise generating) kind of way with no real instrumental change.

The real question to ask here is not what should be done, but whether the means to do what needs to be done exist anymore at all. (I caught a lot of flak for saying the Naya Pakistan will be just like Purana Pakistan many times.)

The rest of South Asia is not much better in this regard either, to remain on topic. The inertia of petty bureaucracy is alive and well in the Commonwealth as a legacy.
 
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@Nilgiri while I was doing my financial engineering I thought I will soon have the tools to understand finances thus humans to the core because money is what moves things once I understand money I'll be able to understand humans better, after that I thought behavioral finance is the way to go it is the key to unlocking my understanding of human beings, then psychology, law, history, religion but age and experience have been both kind and tough the hard lesson is its the damn DNA and psychology of a populace which propels it in the future or takes it back in time.

My initial impulse was to be myself and give a surgical analysis, but then I thought there is truth and then there is truth this 1.5-1.6 billion of population (Pakistan, India and Bangladesh) is not ready for that kind of truth, it is a gullible easily manipulated and conquered population, I consider myself as a verrrrrrrrrrrrrry advanced level student of our history and religion, we have our delusions and don't want them to be challenged, result of the same is hatred and hate crimes as exhibited by us on very regular basis.

At times I do share @VCheng melancholy but then again, I am already doing what I could humanly to change things. Forward is the way!

More later, again under the weather due to extensive travelling, hectic schedule.
 
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What melancholy? All I have is a resigned acceptance realism. :D

Yeah, and my childhood governess (late Mrs.G) and my primary English sister would be so proud to know that now I can understand "subtle" ;)
:cheers:
 
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The rest of South Asia is not much better in this regard either, to remain on topic. The inertia of petty bureaucracy is alive and well in the Commonwealth as a legacy.

I just judge on this in the end mostly by the quality+vetted+credible numbers in the end. Ignoring for a moment where the perceived "honest + quality institutional" averages are for each agglomerated political entity in the region....there is a somewhat more raw process that India somewhat enjoys (relative to the others) in that being massive enough to have sizeable chunks on the more favourable end of a normal distribution that do present case studies to help heave/churn things... so that things do move for the better. In lot of cases sometimes it just helps having the raw numbers here over the argued % intensity.

Like one example is, why do south and west India do lot better on economic things compared to the north (barring some exceptions) etc....there was significant (more raw + absolute number driven) breakout on various things during the 80s and 90s in these regions on certain aspects.....while they still suffered some pretty miserable (or even worse) stats that had to do with the more % intensity arguments. In fact in the early 80s, TN (my state) still had worse poverty indicators than Bihar, if you can believe that. So how best to learn and adopt this all (in often quite different areas culturally/socially but similar in other ways) in the other half of the normal distribution to keep shifting the overall bulk in the better direction...its a complicated matter.

These issues also exist within each state too. Very little is homogeneous once you have a certain scale and scope. Its all about accepting and learning from that.
 
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