Average Pakistani Soldier

[Keysersoze]

lol maybe we should create another thread Sun TSu vs Clauswicz.

"Know yourself and know your enemy and you will be undefeated in a thousand battles."
To be honest the British army has been operating under those principles for many years now hence their success despite being a small army. And their ability to adapt to different forms of combat has been proven. To put it another way if the British had been the first into Afghanistan the situation there would have been much better.
However I am discussing a conventional conflict rather than asymmetric warfare. And there was something else that your interesting article is aimed at and that the idea that technology can solve all problems (A mostly American attitude). It was the general opinion of me and my fellow sqauddies that Americans had nice equipment but their skills were lacking.


My point is that whilst the lines of communication might be shorter they will still in danger of interdiction (even up to the point of the factories churning it out as well as the supply dumps) And whilst the Pak army is very professional I feel that this is where their weakness lies.

 

[PakSniper]

lol maybe we should create another thread Sun TSu vs Clauswicz.

Probably, some day we might actually get the chance, but right now I rather avoid it, lol.

"Know yourself and know your enemy and you will be undefeated in a thousand battles."
To be honest the British army has been operating under those principles for many years now hence their success despite being a small army. And their ability to adapt to different forms of combat has been proven. To put it another way if the British had been the first into Afghanistan the situation there would have been much better.

That's true I don't doubt the British entering in Afghanistan part (But also know after WWII they bombed Afghanistan, etc but they were never able to get control and before that either, just as their isn't much control of Afghan right now), but as you mentioned about adapting, thats what I'm trying to say Pakistan military is itself adapting to the changes occuring in the region, where our neighbors' are now starting to adapt to the 5.56mm including the Ex-Soviet republics (mentioned the parts of using the enemy rounds, etc in my last post). And its' been less than 5 years this trend has picked up.

However I am discussing a conventional conflict rather than asymmetric warfare. And there was something else that your interesting article is aimed at and that the idea that technology can solve all problems (A mostly American attitude). It was the general opinion of me and my fellow sqauddies that Americans had nice equipment but their skills were lacking.

I was discussing conventional warfare as well, which the Falklands was also. About the US part, yeah they depend on technology to much, which in the future can be a very big dis-advantage to them seeing in recent light of Chinese testing the ASM and other weapons that are being built and other nations will jump in the fray to built. About their skills I can honestly say they are lacking according to my friends as well (in certain areas), their training isn't regirious (GI level) as most Asian nations, but US has the luxury of using a superior AF that the oponent can't put up to defend itself and tough armour. Thier were SAS who also said, that "Americans lacked basics".

Link

Above is a link of a Ex-SAS member talking about US tactics in Iraq, etc.

My point is that whilst the lines of communication might be shorter they will still in danger of interdiction (even up to the point of the factories churning it out as well as the supply dumps) And whilst the Pak army is very professional I feel that this is where their weakness lies.

Well. It can be argued many ways. Their is no certanity factories can be protected (or supply lines) even if they were crunching out 7.62mm or supply dumps of the same ammo. "War has many twists and turns", and it depends on who the advesary is, if you talking about neighboring countries their isn't much threat, but if it's USAF then you rather go home and not come to pump out 5.65-7.62mm's, they gone before bullets are even fired.

Alright, I have to get some school work done, I will continue tomorrow

 

[Keysersoze]

Hmmm wonder If the New rifle is going to be the HK 416?



http://www.hkpro.com/hk416.htm

 

[TARIQ MAHMOOD]

its time for pakistan army to change its calibre from 7.62m to 5.56mm,now i have done research on this at the moment G-36(GERMAN) is most advance rifle.it is served with almost 3 versions,
1. 18in barrel for the rifle
2.14in barrel for smc
3.12in barrel for spec ops

the reason why i am supporting this weapon is due to the goodwill for its parent company h&K.G-36 is the third generation rifle rather then m-16 which is still second generation rifle.
now due to high velocity and calibre 7.62mm weapons take long time to get the personall trained
a jawan can carry 60 to 80 extra roounds in ideal conditions(6 mags)
but with 5.56mm the jawan can carry 180 roounds(8 mags of 30 rounds each)
to my personal experience i have'nt been issued with more then 60 rounds with G-3.
so people who say that 5.56mm round has difficulty i say to them that if we use armour pierceing round as standerd rather then ball round it will give the same effect as 7.62mm ball round.

 

[JK!]

Personally I would go with:

1) Steyr Assault rifles with M203 Grenade launchers
2) Steyr LMG (a bit like LSW in British Army)
3) MG4 LMG (Like SAW in US army)

If its M16s we want lets go to China and get the NORINCO CQ 5.56mm assault rifle which is a Chinese copy of the U.S. M16A1 with some minor modifications.

 

[PakSniper]

Guyies, check this out, looks like an upgraded G-3 assault rifle with a 40mm Grenade launcher. I was just thinking would PA just toss out the rifles, or would they still keep them, cause I recently seen at IDEAs a lot of different upgrades for them, it would be a waste to see the developments and then replaced (or these could be implemented on the PK-40 which we haven't seen pics off?), probably it might be sold to civilians, which I would not mind getting a hand on if I go over seas.

But none the less what I have noticed is that our men lack grenade launchers on their rifles which can be a great asset in conflicts, and also high-tech scopes. But whats nice is check out the 3rd pic looks like that will be the Kevlar jacket our men are currently wearing and soon all units will be equipped with.

Click Here To See More Pictures From 60th Formation Conference

 

[kidwaibhai]

gun with the grenatde launcher looks wierd. i saw the same thing done by HK theirs was looking a loot better.

 

[mirage_lover]

There is a strong push to modernize infantry equipment in the entire army, that includes paramilitary, rangers and rear-line troops as well. For instance every new image of Pakistan Army regulars I see - including not on the net - I see kevlar bullet proof vests, ammunition/supply(?) jackets, new-style kevlar helmets and new camouflages being worn. Besides that, they are planning to phase out the G-3 with new 5.56mm rifles. These changes are not limited to the regulars & SSG, they also include the 500k para-military and rear line troops. Adapting to massive equipment change also requires a lot of new training doctrines which would and are being added or revised into the Army training program. Political issues have also had their influence on the Army, for instance I recall:

I have met with junior Pakistan Army officers, and IMO their line of thinking is inclined towards innovation; self reliance in not relying on others; accepting that very adverse conditions exist and facing them is the best way to solve them; and that their enemies are superior in many aspects. The effects of the 1990s sanctions and Global War on Terror has given education thinkers in the Pakistan Military a lot to discuss and plan for.

One cannot expect the whole of the Pakistan Army to be re-equipped within less than a year. IMO having all or most of the regulars equipped with NATO standard bullet proof vests, helmets and other equipment requires some revision on how personnel are trained. I think there is a difference in how one would approach their enemy if they have body armour and a smaller caliber rifle. A strong majority of the PA regulars I have seen wearing kevlar are either officers or younger NCOs.

However as financial limitations continue to decrease (hopefully) and Army given due time in the form of years - I imagine the PA would be very different from what it is today and in the past. In fact, I remember Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz once saying that all Pakistani troops would be equipped with kevlar protection and have relatively easy access to night vision. Add this to many interesting Pakistani projects under development such as IBMS, C4I, etc.

If the current rate of change maintains or catches momentum as it currently is - the average Pakistani regular would be a lot different than the one today.

Yes you are correct, When i was in Pakistan, a few months ago, i saw many Paramilitary personel wearing new camoflages.

 

[Keysersoze]

its time for pakistan army to change its calibre from 7.62m to 5.56mm,now i have done research on this at the moment G-36(GERMAN) is most advance rifle.it is served with almost 3 versions,
1. 18in barrel for the rifle
2.14in barrel for smc
3.12in barrel for spec ops

the reason why i am supporting this weapon is due to the goodwill for its parent company h&K.G-36 is the third generation rifle rather then m-16 which is still second generation rifle.
now due to high velocity and calibre 7.62mm weapons take long time to get the personall trained
a jawan can carry 60 to 80 extra roounds in ideal conditions(6 mags)
but with 5.56mm the jawan can carry 180 roounds(8 mags of 30 rounds each)
to my personal experience i have'nt been issued with more then 60 rounds with G-3.
so people who say that 5.56mm round has difficulty i say to them that if we use armour pierceing round as standerd rather then ball round it will give the same effect as 7.62mm ball round.

I agree with your ammunition assertion however I disagree with the the whole AP round issue. Using AP rounds will be great against targets with body armour. However against non-armoured targets it is not nearly as effective. This is because the round can completely pass through the target. (without rendering the target combat ineffective.)

 

[Keysersoze]

gun with the grenatde launcher looks wierd. i saw the same thing done by HK theirs was looking a loot better.

It looks un wieldy and the rifle itself is quite heavy. I am wondering how much the GL weighs?

However the use of a GL at section level will ramp up the firepower a considerable level.

A section level AT asset plus a light support weapon would round things out nicely.

 

[Keysersoze]

JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - MARCH 07, 2007
Pakistan tests assault rifle
Andrew White Jane's Land Reporter
London

The Pakistan Ministry of Defence (MoD) has procured 50 PK-8 assault rifles from Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) for evaluation tests as it considers changing calibre in line with NATO armed forces.

The PK-8, which fires the standard NATO 5.56 mm cartridge, has undergone tests in environments ranging from -40˚ C to +50˚ C and the system is being offered as a replacement for the army's existing armoury of 7.62 mm Heckler & Koch G3 assault rifles.

Complete with an Aimpoint optical sight and Picatinny rail for add-on ancillaries such as laser pointers and underslung grenade launchers, the PK-8 has a folding stock, shorter barrel and multiple parts commonality with its larger-calibre G3 relation, according to POF.

Any change in calibre for the army could see the procurement of around 500,000 assault rifles, although POF Director Syed Naseem Raza told Jane's that it was "very happy" with 7.62 mm weapon systems.

Industry sources at POF have recommended that any calibre change be gradually phased in, starting with procurements for the army's Special Service Group (SSG) and light infantry.

Currently, certain units within the Pakistan armed forces already use 5.56 mm systems.

Industry sources told Jane's that they were confident of seeing a new programme within a couple of years.

The army also uses 7.62 mm AK-47 assault rifles and 9 mm MP5 submachine guns.

Speaking at the International Defence Exhibition and Seminar in Karachi in 2006, General Ihsan, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff committee, said that a possible change from 7.62 mm to a more uniform NATO round was being considered.

However, Gen Ihsan admitted that there were "resource constraints" to consider before any decision was made: "We are very conscious of equipping our soldiers with the very best possible weapons and equipment, but we must prioritise our requirements," he said.

"We have paid substantial money into indigenous industry and we must first check this before we think about a changing calibre," said the general. Selecting the PK-8 means the MoD would not have to transfer technology from abroad to fulfil any contract.

--Reading between the lines here it looks like the PK-8 will very similar in appearance to the G-3 or more likely the HK-33--

 

[mirage_lover]

I ran a search regarding this PK-8 rifle, i didn't get anyhits...can you posts some detailed info regarding this rifle? does it have another name too?

 

[Keysersoze]

I ran a search regarding this PK-8 rifle, i didn't get anyhits...can you posts some detailed info regarding this rifle? does it have another name too?

Well info is fairly scarce. But i am guessing that it will be very similar to the HK-33. It would very similar to the G-3 (so easy to manufacture) the commonality with the G-3 would make it easy from a training perspective.

The scope will greatly increase accuracy and the picatinny rail allows easy changing of sights etc

 

[mirage_lover]

Well info is fairly scarce. But i am guessing that it will be very similar to the HK-33. It would very similar to the G-3 (so easy to manufacture) the commonality with the G-3 would make it easy from a training perspective.

The scope will greatly increase accuracy and the picatinny rail allows easy changing of sights etc

Thanx for the insight mate

 

[kidwaibhai]

i still think that we should not get the 5.56 because i have heard that they dont have stopping power. we are this point in time fighting insurgencies in pakistan. i have heard that you atleast have to hit the enemy a couple of times to ensure that they are dead while if we use the 7.62 one shot will do the thing.