Army, DRDO fight it out again over Arjun and futuristic tanks

[GURU DUTT]

We can't rely on foreign tanks fore long

but the lathargy of owr DRDO and PSU's in defnce R&D and manufacturing needs to be taken care of till that happens weather we like it or not we have to import

as for arjun it is a perfect example of bad project management and over amibtious goals getting terribelli late and wrong

arjun is at least 10 tonnes heavy and far too bulky and we cant use wherever we want to use it

onli logical step for us is to make a MBT on improved T-72 chassis with new engine , gearbox and suspension and a with lighter yet better composite armour and a minuterised & unmanned arjun turret with all the bells and whistels you get in any contamprarry western MBT

 

[Omega007]

That son of a bitch called omega was given birth and raised by a crack whore, so don't pay attention to what he says. Best to put him in the ignore list.

Yeah,and this "son of a bitch omega" fuckked that swine faced prostitude you call your mum day in day out and the result is now you!!So where does leave you my baastard son??Hey my bastarrd son,does she ever talk about me??does she tell you the stories of those nights we spent together and how I used to fuckk her and how she would scream and moan??
But then again,I doubt my seeds would give birth to such an abomination like yourself.Are you sure that you are not the love child of that crack whore,who would split her legs in front of anything,men or animals alike, you call your mum and a bloody stray dog??Can you prove that your 'mum' did not pour meat sause all over her body and fuccked a stray dog and the resulting fucck faced moron is not you??

Now coming back to the topic.

Hahahaha..........joke of the day.

Like all things made by Indian PSUs, the Arjun is a copy of a foreign platform. In this case the Arjun is a copy of the German leopard.

Yeah,yeah just because a baastard dog like you say so,doesn't make it a reality.After all,everyone here is promtly aware of your habit of pulling out arguments and stats from your stinking @ss rather than putting forward any actual facts,backed by some source or something.
You say Arjun is a copy of Leopard,show me the Leopard that was copied.Where is it hidden??Oh I know...............in the @ss of that dog fuckking whore you call your mum,right you bastaard??All the similarities of Arjun and Leopard ends at the frontal turret and the engines,there is nothing more in common between the two.

The problem is many Indians in PDF are illiterate

Oh yeah??And what are your qualifications??Show us your MIT degree in bullshitting through your mouth while we are at it,you fuckiing cunt son of a whore.

and are an embarrassment to the country,

The only embarrassment here is you,you motherfuccking piece of dogshit!!Go suck your mum's tities or finger her vagina or whatever.

they do not have any working knowledge but they love to show case their ignorance

And you speak like you are the pinnacle of human intelligence personufied.Again,what are your credentials,come clean with them or just shut the fucck up already.
.

What works for Germany will not work here. Germany does not have deserts, India has and that proves to be a problem.

again,another argument that you pulled out from your mum's stinking @ss. In trials that were conducted by the Army,it was repeatedly shown that Arjun was far more mobile over sand dunes and marshy areas than T 90 and even T 72!!If you can bring the proofs in contrary,then show them,come clean with your sources or go fuckk your mum,you stupid cunt!!

Arjun is overweight, has an imported engine and is literally a foreign tank. So no need to get sentimental. It is best to invest in Russian or involve the domestic private sector.

Oh no,not evem Armata.Lets invest in crack whores like your mum and your fuckking sisters,right pimp??I know that's what you are trying to convey here,sala dalla khika.And Arjun is as musch foreign as much your'e son of bittch.

Armata is sthe future while Arjun is 70s technology.

Yeah,Armata is the future...............but it's the future of Russia.The IA ain't getting it............not as long this government is in power it ain't.Now suck on that you useless swine!!

 

[IND151]

but the lathargy of owr DRDO and PSU's in defnce R&D and manufacturing needs to be taken care of till that happens weather we like it or not we have to import

as for arjun it is a perfect example of bad project management and over amibtious goals getting terribelli late and wrong

arjun is at least 10 tonnes heavy and far too bulky and we cant use wherever we want to use it

onli logical step for us is to make a MBT on improved T-72 chassis with new engine , gearbox and suspension and a with lighter yet better composite armour and a minuterised & unmanned arjun turret with all the bells and whistels you get in any contamprarry western MBT

Arjun performs good in Desert and it offers more protection than T Series.

However as I have pointed out many times, infra on both sides of LOC favours a Medium Tank weighing 45 to 48 Tons.

So Arjun will not replace T 90 and wont be worhorse of IA Tank Forces. It will be with Elite Units.

As sources suggest FMBT will be replacement for T 90/ T 72 and it could be based on Armata if FMBT becomes a JV with Russia.

P.S-

I think what I have predicted in last line will become reality.

One of the concepts of FMBT disclosed by Dr. Avinash Chander (SA-to-RM) is to explore the possibility of a 2-man crew, sub-50ton tank with higher armor protection than Arjun Mk2. He said that DRDO is currently doing feasibility study of utilizing the fighter aircraft's digital cockpit & weapons management systems. It can be assumed that this planned FMBT would have a fully automatic turret, larger ammunition storage, V-hull and smaller dimensions. Driver and Commander role would be retained for the 2 crews planned, with duplicated controls, with the Gunner/Loader roles completely automated.[101]

DRDO to be part of Future Ready Combat Vehicle project: Army

 

[Indian Patriot]

Arjun performs good in Desert and it offers more protection than T Series.

However as I have pointed out many times, infra on both sides of LOC favours a Medium Tank weighing 45 to 48 Tons.

So Arjun will not replace T 90 and wont be worhorse of IA Tank Forces. It will be with Elite Units.

As sources suggest FMBT will be replacement for T 90/ T 72 and it could be based on Armata if FMBT becomes a JV with Russia.

Arjun suffers from lack of mobility. Army is not too happy with the performance of Arjun and their word holds the most credibility because they are the end user and they are the ones risking their life and limb. If the army says the Arjun sucks then it sucks because their word is more credible than some DRDO loser.

It is not only infra but terrain and logistics as well.

Arjun will not replace the T-90 because the army is unhappy with the performance. The army was forced to buy the Arjun to keep DRDO scientists employed. The army does not want anything to do with Arjun.

If Arjun is such a great tank then why is it not in the top 10 list of any international observer? Even Chinese made tanks are mentioned time and again even if only as a reference. But nobody even bothers to look at arjun and that should explain just how worthless the tank is.

 

[Omega007]

arjun is at least 10 tonnes heavy

Non sense............total non sense.Arjun is lighter than most western MBT.And if you want to achieve an adequate level of protection against present and future threats,you have to make it heavy.............it's a very simple fact and there is simply no way around it.Even the Armata,with it's unmanned turret weighs around 55 tons,which bears the testimony to the above mentioned fact.

and far too bulky and we cant use wherever we want to use it

Total bullshiit.............absolutely bullshit.There are more proofs on the contrary to your statement that are in its favor.You might wanna check up on them sometimes in the future.

onli logical step for us is to make a MBT on improved T-72 chassis

Yeah yeah,and that's why even the Ruskies,the biggest proponent of smaller tanks,have suddenly decided to go for a big 7 wheeled chassis for their latest toy aka Armata instead of their usual 6 wheeled ones....................RIGHT??!!

lighter yet better composite armour

Another of your tall claims,really buddy,you never cease to amuse me.It's clear from this line that you know practically nothing of material sciences yet you speak with such confidence which might give someone an impression that you are the soul authority when it comes to the subject at hand.That I must give to you.
The fact is,you simply can not cut down the weight and expect the inserts to work against X,Y,Z threats.............NO!!It doesn't work that way!!The truth is,if you wanna protect the vehicle against modern kinetic enery rounds,which by the way are constructed of very heavy and dense materials,you need to add layers of heavy materials to the armor inserts,lest they will fail in their task!!And if you add heavy metals like DU alloy mesh (like used in the 'special heavy alloy armor' in the M1 variants) or Tungsten alloys (like used in the 'Dorchester' armor inserts used in the British Challenger MkII)in the armor cavity,the weight will invariably sky rocket.And same thing happened to the Arjun MkII.And it's not a bad thing as you guys think,given there is a powerful enough engine that can provide adequate power to mass ratio to maintain the requisite level of mobility in different terrains.

 

[Not So Good]

The problem with foreign tanks is they are designed for foreign terrain. T-72/ T-90 works because these tanks are light and because of Russian parentage they are rugged.

The Arjun is a carbon copy of Leopard 1 of Germany and its most important component, the engine is imported. So the Arjun is not even an indigenous tank like some fools would love to claim. Arjun is a foreign tank.

So instead of wasting time and money on a failure made by loser scientists of Indian PSUs it is better for Indian government to learn from established foreign countries like either France or Russia. Involve the private sector so that there is unacceptability and respect for deadline. India cannot afford to have a tank project running for nearly 40 years like the Arjun.

JV with a foreign country plus private sector should work for India. And until that happens the Armata is far far better than the junkyard garbage called Arjun. Even improved T-90s in greater numbers will help Indian army.

We waited because we were and still are a third world dirt poor country we are not like Saudi Arabia or UAE who have abunabundant
Money to purchase whatever and whenever we like to buy, we simply can't,, we would go broke like our neighbor

 

[Omega007]

Arjun suffers from lack of mobility. Army is not too happy with the performance of Arjun and their word holds the most credibility because they are the end user and they are the ones risking their life and limb. If the army says the Arjun sucks then it sucks because their word is more credible than some DRDO loser.

Nope,the Army is unhappy because they aren't getting the money needed to pay for fuccking your crack whore mum.

It is not only infra but terrain and logistics as well.

Nope.It's the racks and cavity of your mum.

Arjun will not replace the T-90 because the army is unhappy with the performance. The army was forced to buy the Arjun to keep DRDO scientists employed. The army does not want anything to do with Arjun.

Who needs tanks when we have got such world class whores like your mum??

If Arjun is such a great tank then why is it not in the top 10 list of any international observer??

Because the observers were busy fuckking those two whores you call your mum and sis.

Even Chinese made tanks are mentioned time and again even if only as a reference. But nobody even bothers to look at arjun and that should explain just how worthless the tank is.

Well,obviously.It's not that the Chinis did not bring such world class whores like your mum and sis.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Non sense............total non sense.Arjun is lighter than most western MBT.And if you want to achieve an adequate level of protection against present and future threats,you have to make it heavy.............it's a very simple fact and there is simply no way around it.Even the Armata,with it's unmanned turret weighs around 55 tons,which bears the testimony to the above mentioned fact.

Total bullshiit.............absolutely bullshit.There are more proofs on the contrary to your statement that are in its favor.You might wanna check up on them sometimes in the future.


Yeah yeah,and that's why even the Ruskies,the biggest proponent of smaller tanks,have suddenly decided to go for a big 7 wheeled chassis for their latest toy aka Armata instead of their usual 6 wheeled ones....................RIGHT??!!


Another of your tall claims,really buddy,you never cease to amuse me.It's clear from this line that you know practically nothing of material sciences yet you speak with such confidence which might give someone an impression that you are the soul authority when it comes to the subject at hand.That I must give to you.
The fact is,you simply can not cut down the weight and expect the inserts to work against X,Y,Z threats.............NO!!It doesn't work that way!!The truth is,if you wanna protect the vehicle against modern kinetic enery rounds,which by the way are constructed of very heavy and dense materials,you need to add layers of heavy materials to the armor inserts,lest they will fail in their task!!And if you add heavy metals like DU alloy mesh (like used in the 'special heavy alloy armor' in the M1 variants) or Tungsten alloys (like used in the 'Dorchester' armor inserts used in the British Challenger MkII)in the armor cavity,the weight will invariably sky rocket.And same thing happened to the Arjun MkII.And it's not a bad thing as you guys think,given there is a powerful enough engine that can provide adequate power to mass ratio to maintain the requisite level of mobility in different terrains.

but we need a light MBT as russian or western climatic and terrain conditions are totally diffrent to the climatic conditions and terrain of indian sub continent .... am i wrong

we need something which is compact , lighter , agile , furgal yet very stronglli protected and the onli way for that is a 5 or 6 wheeled chassis with much better suspension engine and gearbox than current T-72s we have

yes im no defnce expert but im a hub bul watan hindustani and thats what matters most ... good day ... cheers mate

Nope,the Army is unhappy because they aren't getting the money needed to pay for fuccking your crack whore mum.


Nope.It's the racks and cavity of your mum.


Who needs tanks when we have got such world class whores like your mum??


Because the observers were busy fuckking those two whores you call your mum and sis.

Well,obviously.It's not that the Chinis did not bring such world class whores like your mum and sis.

sirji i dont know but if you understand hindi they say "AGAR SAMNE WALLE KA MU LAL HO TO HUM APNA MU THAPPAR MAAR KE LAL NAHI KERTE" MEANING IF YOUR OPPONENT HAS A RED FACE YOU DONT SLAP YOUR FACE TO MAKE IT RED

 

[Not So Good]

but the lathargy of owr DRDO and PSU's in defnce R&D and manufacturing needs to be taken care of till that happens weather we like it or not we have to import

as for arjun it is a perfect example of bad project management and over amibtious goals getting terribelli late and wrong

arjun is at least 10 tonnes heavy and far too bulky and we cant use wherever we want to use it

onli logical step for us is to make a MBT on improved T-72 chassis with new engine , gearbox and suspension and a with lighter yet better composite armour and a minuterised & unmanned arjun turret with all the bells and whistels you get in any contamprarry western MBT

NO doubt DRDO is not good at project management
I am very disappointed by their research and development too very underwhelming performance but so is our whole country
In short there is no SHORT CUT. we have to improve our industrial design and development capabilities instead of buying, buying and more buying

Fucking bastard is actually very good at abusing

Since when did a piece of crap like you know anything about military? The Arjun is a failure and that is why it is not being inducted by the army. You go and wipe your mum instead of poking your nose in defense matters.



Why should army waste money on junk you dumb bastard?



More lies from you son of a bitch. Stop lying, know your place and STFU.



So anybody who believes in false delusions is a false flagger. No wonder you retards are the laughing stock.[/QUOTE]

Fucking bastard is actually very good at abusing

@MilSpec
that's the lines I was referring to. Is not he good

 

[Omega007]

still a difference... And a product of JV ... And produced by US not an import...

I did not say that the M256,that go into the M1s,are imported from Rheinmetall.What I said was that its origin lies with Rheinmetall,cause they are the ones who did most of the works.And if we are to go by Mr Hunnicut,the M256 is not at all much different than the original L44 except a little bit of modification to the breech block,in order to handle the increased pressure of the M829 DU rounds,with higher energetic propellants.These are not my words,I just read it in the Presido series books,written by the above mentioned dude.

i didn't mention Armata or even arjun II.

Oh man,as always you seem to have lost the drift.My comment was in reply to your earlier question which was and I quote,"Do you know Altay is still under development ??"
All I had been trying to convey here was that,since the thread in itself is about two under development projects,so giving the example of Altay wasn't factually wrong.
And I know what you will say now - that why then we can not mention the Turkish engine program??Isn't it borderline double standard??Well,it isn't since we are comparing the projects which has entered at least their respective prototype phase,where the developers have got something to show for.But same can not be told about the engine programs of both Turkey and India.I hope I've cleared my stand to you.

can you post pics and info ? Have they been selected ? Are they indian or foriegn?

Of course I can and I will.But it will take some time because the all the information are scattered here and there and I may have to dig up different threads in different sites.So............but I will post them,may or may not post them in this particular thread,but I'll post them never the less.

Thats an invalid arguement... Also IBMS isn't just about GPS etc but rather more related to battle management... Data linking with out units , command center etc and awareness about the battlefield,UAV connectivity etc... even T-90s don't use one...

How is that invalid??I know that IBMS doesn't equals to GPS and neither did I claim any such thing,the name IBMS itself is pretty much self-explanatory.But you have to agree that real time GPS information is indeed a very important part of an IBMS,and without it the system won't be complete.
Besides,the much needed satcom is also not online yet,because the dedicated com sats for the Army hasn't yet been placed in the orbit.But thanks to China,Pakistan Army does not need its own sats,since you can always buy the service from the former,which is not the case for us.
Then there is the problem of that the Super Vision series of AESA SAR sensors,meants for our MALE UAVs have taken longer longer that expected and the prototypes are now going through development trials and won't become operational at least before 3 years.
And lastly,the Indian Army has been terribly slow when it comes to banking upon the recent technological breakthroughs,made in country and only recently has awaken from its slumber.

Also can you kindly post a link of your "IBMS"?

I'll see to it.But to be honest, @Abingdonboy has got much more knowledge in this regard compared to me.

Cummins india isn't an indian company nor does it produce tank engines... They produce industrial engines,automobile,etc... Also just because cummins produces civilian engines in other countries doesn't make it an indian company... Cummins is also producing similiar stuff in several other countries including China... It's called outsourcing... Tata manufactures cummins engines (non military stuff)...

I know,and I never claimed it to be an Indian company.I just said,they were developing a 1500 bhp engine in India,with Kirloskar group.

but we need a light MBT as russian or western climatic and terrain conditions are totally diffrent to the climatic conditions and terrain of indian sub continent .... am i wrong

Of course not.But you should have put forward your arguments in more clear terms.Then there wouldn't have been the confusion.
And that's why I'm saying that Russian tanks,which are built to operate in the cold climates,over European plain-lands,may not be suitable for the hot desert regions of western India.

we need something which is compact , lighter , agile , furgal yet very stronglli protected and the onli way for that is a 5 or 6 wheeled chassis with much better suspension engine and gearbox than current T-72s we have

Yes,for the north east.But same things should not be used in the western sectors,because there are no natural restrictions like weight limits on roads due to loose soil and all.There,you can and should use heavier,more heavily armored tanks............at least in my opinion.

yes im no defnce expert but im a hub bul watan hindustani and thats what matters most ... good day ... cheers mate

Of course you are and neither I'm an automobile or Material science expert but still,there is no harm in collecting a little bit of relevant info...............especially on a subject which we love to discuss.

sirji i dont know but if you understand hindi they say "AGAR SAMNE WALLE KA MU LAL HO TO HUM APNA MU THAPPAR MAAR KE LAL NAHI KERTE" MEANING IF YOUR OPPONENT HAS A RED FACE YOU DONT SLAP YOUR FACE TO MAKE IT RED

Arey yaara,life mein teen cheeso ki badi kami hain - Entertainment,Entertainment aur Entertainment.And he's got a great entertainment value.

 

[Omega007]

but to get entertained you dont go down to the level of opponent and specially since you are such a learned man

Sehi baat sir ji,I'll keep them in my mind.

Okay brother @DESERT FIGHTER ,here are some of the components that will form our version of an IBMS (I'm not sure what terminology will be used).
Here is the display for mounting on vehicles and artillery pieces :

Here are the displays for individuals :

Now the SAR radar for UAVs :

This above mentioned radar is a further development of this one in the below image:

Now coming to the AEW&CS part of the overall network :

To be contd

 

[Omega007]

Moving on..................
Here are few of the ground based radars :

That's all for now,but this list is in no way complete.But it gives a rough idea about the developments that are going on here.
Now some more info-graphics,although these are not directly related to the system but still I think they are worth mentioning because they may have some indirect roles to play in the overall network.So here are few of the passive infrared detection systems,developed by DRDO:

And here is a commander's site for MBTs and other armored fighting vehicles :

 

[MilSpec]

@MilSpec
that's the lines I was referring to. Is not he good

removed

 

[Not So Good]

removed

Thank you

 

[AMCA]

Well what else do you expect??Who in their right mind would invest huge amount of money and man power on developing each and every nuts and bolts,all by themselves,for a measly 128 tanks??Sorry kid,companies do not role that way.It would be good for you to learn these things or better yet..................get a proper schooling before opening mouth and show your stupidity to everyone......or knowing you,it would be better to keep that pie hole shut for all together for the time being.
And oh yeah mate,do try to learn about globalization.Countries do not need to design and develop every subsystem all by themselves these days,because it's cheaper to buy them cots,from other nations.That's why,even the USA does not build every subsystem of their Abrams in country ,a big portion of its critical subsystems are of imported origin,for example its guns and power-pack and sights are of European origin.Same case with South Korean K2 Black Panther and the Altay - almost the entire tank is of foreign origin including but not limited to its armor,gun,engines,sights even ammo - every fucking
thing came from different countries!!I do not see the Turks whining and moaning about this!!Because they understand good business,they understand the concept of feasibility,same can not be told about immature crybabies like yourself though.

So again,before opening that mouth,do educate yourself,or better yet...............just keep shut and learn for the time being.



So basically you have no fuckking idea about what the term tot really means.You are probably just another teenager,who thinks he's got figured out all of it.Am I right or am I right??


Yeah right,as we do not have to import anything for assembling those T90S ,which we had received the 'full tot' for!!Really man,I'm just astonished by the sheer level of your stupidity and ignorance!!Come on now,ignorance can never be a bliss..............well,may be it can for ignorant like you but for others,it's a big pain in the @ss!!



And don't forget the dhakosla the Ruskies did with the fitment of air conditioners and subsequently what a fool of galactic magnitude they made of themselves when they failed to do it by themselves!!Comments like his makes one wonder when will these kids grow up and start talking sense.



A really enlightening piece.But unfortunately,it's gonna fall on his deaf ears.The guy in question has made a perception and unfortunately,he's got a huge ego,which won't make him accept his faults and he will just carry on at his course of abusing the DRDO and other government entities without an iota of logic to back his claims up.Better to ignore him altogether.



Sadly,nothing of that sort is ever gonna happen.You just do not know him yet,he's a basket case.

Thanks for the Heads Up. Sadly I am never going to make him come out of Generalization. He instead of getting into the crux of my statement, selects a point to argue and let me say he has not seen or worked enough in Govt. Organizations.