Army, DRDO fight it out again over Arjun and futuristic tanks

[DESERT FIGHTER]

True,but you just can not ignore the level of technical inputs it received from the Germans.Without their inputs,I doubt Honeywell could ever come up with that power-pack.

are you fukin kidding me? Rockwell and lycoming aerospace have been building engines since decades... They are t just equipping tanks but also aircrafts... Even the 1500 was initially supposed to be used for heli...

The Germans don't even produce Gas turbine engines (which powers Abrams) instead the Germans are using diesel turbine for leopard 2!

Yes,but it is essentially a Rheinmetall L44.And just look at the order book of the Abrams,the total number produced is 10000+ for crying out loud!!With that kind of an order book,the companies faced no problem in breaking even.

Don't you understand Allies worked on a JV tank to equip NATO .. It didn't go through but it's systems were used ... L series is just one of those systems... And even the L44 used on Abrams is different and US customised or upgraded than the ones produced by rhienmetal... The Germans are using L52..

No,that is not at all nonsense just because you say so.............at least not for the first trench of 250 or so machines.

Do you know Altay is still under development ??

And by the way,neither APS nor IBMS fall among the list of most critical parts,and it's not that complicated either as even third world countries like India and Pakistan can design one without much hassle.It's all about the algorithms

Pak actually does use IBMS,Laser warning and jamming systems and RCWS (produced by HIT,GIDS and other Pak companies )... Does india ? Indian tanks don't even use them...

By critical parts,I meant armor,gun,power pack and ammo.And we all know the Turks paid a hefty price to the Koreans for developing a version of armor for their Altay,the engine,suspension,transmission and guns all have come from Germany.............you might wanna deny that but that wouldn't change the reality.
And lastly,please do not bring under development things into the discussion.

You ask me not to mention under development stuff ? Yet you are bragging about an under development tank ? Let me tag some Turk members .. @Hakan. @

Because then,I can say the same for India as the Cuminnis India has already developed a prototype 1500 hp diesel engine for this purpose and DRDO is also in the advanced stage of developing a 1800 hp compact engine.But lets leave them aside for the time being,shall we??

Cummins is an american company it has nothing to do with India or Indian defence sector ...

 

[Omega007]

Don't you understand Allies worked on a JV tank to equip NATO .. It didn't go through but it's systems were used ... L series is just one of those systems... And even the L44 used on Abrams is different and US customised or upgraded than the ones produced by rhienmetal... The Germans are using L52...

Only difference is in some breech locking mechanism,nothing else.And no,Leopards are fitted with L55s,not 52s.

Do you know Altay is still under development ??

Of course I do,but so is Arjun MkII and Armata.

Pak actually does use IBMS,Laser warning and jamming systems and RCWS (produced by HIT,GIDS and other Pak companies )... Does india ? Indian tanks don't even use them...

Laser warning and jamming system and RCWS is part of the DAS (Short for Defensive Aid System which includes a thermal jammer,ALWCS(Advanced Laser Warning and Counter System) an yet to be specified APS and an RCWS) on board MkII programme my dear brother.They have been integrated and successfully trialed.
And as for the IBMS is concerned,the interfaces and algorithms have been developed.It's just the system has not yet been operationalised owing to the lack of a GPS system.You know,you have got your all weather Chinese friends,providing you with their service,which is not the case with us and our IRNSS is not yet operational,so no IBMS fort us.......................yet.Doesn't mean we do not have one.

You ask me not to mention under development stuff ? Yet you are bragging about an under development tank ? Let me tag some Turk members .. @Hakan.

No one is bragging about anything.If stating the facts is bragging to you,then so be it.I don't give much care about semantics anyway.Thank you.

Cummins is an american company it has nothing to do with India or Indian defence sector ...

Dude,I said Cumminis India.Do give another look.

 

[Indian Jatt]

Wrong... Abram uses US made (Honeywell) powerplant,it's gun was actually a JV .. The allies were on a tank that would be employed by all but the project got cancelled but it's parts or systems that were developed were later utilised by allied nations... Also the tank gun is produced in US( not imported)
Abrams doesn't use European sights...It's sights are provided by Raython,Collins.. Etc all US companies.




Nope.. That's nonsense... Turkish Altay is using Turkish IBMS,sight systems,FCS,Turkish armour (they did get help from Pak and Korea though)...their own APS,RCWS...etc...
The Turks also also developing their own powerplant for Altay..etc etc.



That's at Max an anti tank gun.. "Major thrusts" inside enemy territory is nonsense unless you are fighting countries like myanmar or bangladesh...

Apart from terrain .. You will have too somehow gain the element of complete surprise .. Which won't be possible with thousands of tanks stationed on the border with india..

These are fast vehicles can can move quickly after firing from one position to another, i was talking about pairing these with special forces, as they are light can be deployed in C-17's......take a look at this......

they can easily hit a tank and then run as fast as they can, these are not replacement for tanks, but are for support of infantry nothing less.....

How do you deploy a 50 tonne tank with special forces?

i was talking about Stryker IFV.......its just 20 tons.........can be deployed by C-17's and that too 2 of them......pair them up with Para SF they can be lethal.......like a spade...

Arjun is NOT doing good. It is a colossal failure.

arjun is overweight but not a failure.......its not fit for desert warfare, it would match M2A3's in urban combat, as well as in plains.........people who get benefits from importing will not let arjun serve the country........

 

[Indian Patriot]

i was talking about Stryker IFV.......its just 20 tons.........can be deployed by C-17's and that too 2 of them......pair them up with Para SF they can be lethal.......like a spade...

special forces usually work in silence and secrecy, they are covert forces and usually do not take along heavy gear for obvious reasons. In Afghanistan US/NATO special forces would not wear combat fatigues or other uniform. Instead they would dress up like ordinary Afghans and try to mingle as much as possible with the crowd. The main weapon of special forces is surprise. Their operations are often strategic in nature and they rarely engage in combat with the enemy. Unnecessarily fighting the enemy would expose their position and could jeopardise the mission.

arjun is overweight but not a failure.......its not fit for desert warfare, it would match M2A3's in urban combat, as well as in plains.........people who get benefits from importing will not let arjun serve the country........

Arjun is a failure. It is not fit either for he desert or the plains of Punjab. And in case you did not know he engine and tank barrel of Arjun is foreign.

 

[Omega007]

Arjun is a failure.

Your mum is a failure for failing to use a protection on that fateful night you bloody piece of crap!!

It is not fit either for he desert or the plains of Punjab.

Plain hogwash!!If anything,compared to T72M1s and T 90S,Arjun can move with much more ease over those aforementioned landscapes,owing to its reduced ground pressure per square inch!!And if Arjuns get bogged down in those areas,then you can god damn bet your @ss that the Ts will meet the same................in fact,much worse fate.

And in case you did not know he engine

Of course,what else do you expect when the order was for a measly 128 tanks!!

and tank barrel of Arjun is foreign.

More lies.The gun barrel was designed and developed in house from the very start of it you rascal!!

 

[Omega007]

your wasting your time on him he is a pakistani false flagger who loves to poke his nose in indian defnce matters which he actually knows glich about but here we have diffrent rules for diffrent perople

Well,you got that one right.

Your mum is a drunk whore who spreads her legs to any male that crosses her path. You bloody piece of crap!! No wonder she hates you so much and you cry about it in your signature. You were not planned.

Aley le le,bache ko gussa a gaya.Too bad,I do not give a crap about your emotions,actually I wipe my @ss with it every fuccking day.And by the way,every one knows here who the real son of whore is ,which is no doubt you.Yeah,you are the piece of crap dog shit son of whore,whose mum spread meat juice all over her body and then split her legs in front of a stray dog,got fucked by it and result was you.A fucking dog shit abominable son of whore,whose mother got fucked by a dog.Go lick that sucker.

Since when did a piece of crap like you know anything about military?

Since the day I fuckked your mum you bloody nincompoop.May be I do not abuse you,because you may be the result of my semen,who knows.I guess you should ask your mom,but the I doubt she would be able to tell.

The Arjun is a failure and that is why it is not being inducted by the army. You go and wipe your mum instead of poking your nose in defense matters.

How about I come to your home and then unrobe and @ss **** each and every female member of your family??I'm sure they would love it.Sound nice to ya,dogshit??
Just finger your mum and stay the hell out of here you bloody worm.You just pray that you do not get to meet me in person.Because I do,I'm gonna rip your ballz off and the stuff them into your throat after I slice it open,you bloody piece of dog shit.

Why should army waste money on junk you dumb bastard?

Oh no,they should not.Rather they should use that money on a whore like your mum,right,Bastard??By the way,do you really know your father's name??I don't think you do..............I mean,you might be the lovechild of your mum the whore and a bloody stray dog for all we know!!Must be hard for ya,huh chicka.Too bad so sad.

More lies from you son of a bitch. Stop lying, know your place and STFU.

Every one knows who the lying son of a bitch is,so stop your non sense.And if you are son to your father you know as your father,then tell me where you live.Or else you are a son of a whore............well,you it's a truth which we all know but still.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Omega007

While I respect your sentiments supporting indigeneous defence equipment
I still believe that Armata will come to India may be through a JV between DRDO
and Russia

Armata is just too good ; there is NO point in China buying it
and supplying the Technology to Pakistan and we just keep arguing and debating

This will happen post 2020 when T 72s are up for replacement

Still we can have 500 Arjun Tanks

2000 T 90 ; 500 Arjun and 1000 Armata plus 1000 T 72

The DRDO should establish a MRO facility up north where ever Arjun Mk 1 is based
and get the Arjun Mk 1 back up and running

Indian Army has more than 6000 Tanks ; there is ROOM for everybody

 

[Omega007]

@Omega007

While I respect your sentiments supporting indigeneous defence equipment

And I do yours,be assured.Don't let yourself to be fooled by my slug-fest with that moron,brother.

I still believe that Armata will come to India may be through a JV between DRDO and Russia

Look bro,it's not just the question of sentiments supporting indigenous developments,(not to imply that I ain't biased at all;that would be an outright lie) but whether the Ruskies actually want to part with the technology.Especially after what they did with the T90............that denying tot for the 'special' armor inserts,FCS and 2A46M2 main guns (as a result our T90S are equipped with obsolete 2A46M guns which can not handle modern more powerful ammo),I for one can not trust them anymore.

Armata is just too good ;

Well,that's a question of perception really.Yes,in some point,it's really innovative and all like the unmanned turret and isolated crew modules but there are also some design features which I do not like.I would mention two of those -
Fact No 1. 125mm guns - it still has an 125 mm main gun,with two piece ammunition,which means the length of the penetrators will be limited.I would rather have an Indian developed 120mm smooth barrel gun or even a license manufactured Rheinmetall L55 would do it just fine.In fact,it will help us in cutting down the development time and cost.
Fact No 2. The auto-loader magazine of Armata is still placed into its hull.And after looking at hundreds upon hundreds of destroyed T series tanks,I can not really support such a design 'solution'.I would much prefer a magazine housed in the turret bustle to one inside the hull.
But the question is,will the Ruskies let us customize the design as per our need??Who knows??They did object when we tried to fit an air conditioner in the T90S,but who knows.
So on these grounds,more precisely on the grounds of firepower and crew safety,the concept designs by CVRDE looks somewhat better.................at least to me.You might contact @holysaturn for the schematics I'm talking about.

there is NO point in China buying it
and supplying the Technology to Pakistan and we just keep arguing and debating

There is actually little chance that Russia might sell this thing to China and besides,Pakistanis seem to have set their eyes on the Ukrainian BM Oplot.

This will happen post 2020 when T 72s are up for replacement

That has always been the plan,but there is no assurance of what's gonna happen.Fact is,no one really knows,neither the MoD and nor the Army.

Still we can have 500 Arjun Tanks

2000 T 90 ; 500 Arjun and 1000 Armata plus 1000 T 72

Of course 'we' can,but the question is not what 'we' can but rather what 'we' should do!!I mean,take your proposal for example - if we are to maintain 4 different types of MBTs all at once,just imagine the magnitude of logistical issues it will create................it will be a mess,a total nightmare if one are to adhere to the 'solution' proposed by you.Basically,there are rooms for only 2 types - one 60 tonner for the plains and 45-50 tonners for the mountains.I'm sorry to say but there is no way the army can maintain and operate 4 different types of mbts in such quantities,it just doesn't make any sense at all from operational and logistical stand points.

The DRDO should establish a MRO facility up north where ever Arjun Mk 1 is based
and get the Arjun Mk 1 back up and running

It's not the job of the DRDO to set up an MRO facility,it's the job of the manufacturer - the industry,HVF AVADI in this case.DRDO is the developer.

Indian Army has more than 6000 Tanks ; there is ROOM for everybody

Nope,the number is more like 4500 and no;there is no room for everybody,there never was and nor will be.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Omega007

Armata has its strengths ; its electronics ; sensors and communications are something
new and very appealing

But Armata's problem will be the cost

So the Army will try to get some features of Armata in the Next Tank that it gets

T 72 cant last for ever

Arjun's width ; Height and weight are an issue

In Pakistan ; they have developed many Canal defences and DCBs ( ditch cum Bund )

Heavy tanks can face problems in such water bodies and muddy terrain

Heavy Tanks also have more logistical problems

Similarly engine and transmission life gets reduced in a heavy tank

Why could not DRDO restrict the weight of Arjun to 50 tonnes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway coming to the all important thing called Numerical superiority

Sometime back A Pakistani had written about the Indian Army

He used these words "The Pakistan army looks at the Indian army and sees its 6,384 tanks "
as a threat India-Pakistan: military angle - Dr Farrukh Saleem

Since then this FIGURE has been etched in my memory

Now see the Google results of

India 6384 Tanks

Google

 

[Omega007]

@Omega007

Armata has its strengths ; its electronics ; sensors and communications are something
new and very appealing

Nothing that can not be obtained from other suppliers.............in fact,we can obtain much better things from say for example,Israel. Russia is not particularly well known for its electronics industries sonny.

But Armata's problem will be the cost.

What's the cost??

So the Army will try to get some features of Armata in the Next Tank that it gets

Again,it's not what Army wants but what the Ruskies are willing to provide...............plain and simple,can't get simpler than this.

T 72 cant last for ever

Who said it can??

Arjun's width ; Height and weight are an issue

In Pakistan ; they have developed many Canal defences and DCBs ( ditch cum Bund )

Heavy tanks can face problems in such water bodies and muddy terrain

Heavy Tanks also have more logistical problems

Similarly engine and transmission life gets reduced in a heavy tank

Careful now young one,you are beginning to get on my nerves!!Clearly you are not informed enough on the subject and so try to refrain from making such tall claims about something you know so little about.All these nonsense have already been discussed to death and been thoroughly debunked as utter hogwash many a times in this very forum and others as well.So again,try to educate yourself on the matter which you wanna discuss about,before you have made your mind of engaging yourself into the same.

Why could not DRDO restrict the weight of Arjun to 50 tonnes

Has already been answered may be a thousand times before.Look up this forum for them and read them...........CAREFULLY,instead asking the same shiit over and over again.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway coming to the all important thing called Numerical superiority

Sometime back A Pakistani had written about the Indian Army

He used these words "The Pakistan army looks at the Indian army and sees its 6,384 tanks "
as a threat India-Pakistan: military angle - Dr Farrukh Saleem

Since then this FIGURE has been etched in my memory

Now see the Google results of

India 6384 Tanks

Google

Only one word - UTTER HOGWASH!!Well,that's two words but still,utter hogwash.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Only difference is in some breech locking mechanism,nothing else.And no,Leopards are fitted with L55s,not 52s

still a difference... And a product of JV ... And produced by US not an import...

Of course I do,but so is Arjun MkII and Armata.

i didn't mention Armata or even arjun II.

Laser warning and jamming system and RCWS is part of the DAS (Short for Defensive Aid System which includes a thermal jammer,ALWCS(Advanced Laser Warning and Counter System) an yet to be specified APS and an RCWS) on board MkII programme my dear brother.They have been integrated and successfully trialed.

can you post pics and info ? Have they been selected ? Are they indian or foriegn?

And as for the IBMS is concerned,the interfaces and algorithms have been developed.It's just the system has not yet been operationalised owing to the lack of a GPS system.You know,you have got your all weather Chinese friends,providing you with their service,which is not the case with us and our IRNSS is not yet operational,so no IBMS fort us.......................yet.Doesn't mean we do not have one.

Thats an invalid arguement... Also IBMS isn't just about GPS etc but rather more related to battle management... Data linking with out units , command center etc and awareness about the battlefield,UAV connectivity etc... even T-90s don't use one...

Also can you kindly post a link of your "IBMS"?

No one is bragging about anything.If stating the facts is bragging to you,then so be it.I don't give much care about semantics anyway.Thank you

I'm not have much info on Altay but let me quote the Turks @Hakan. @atatwolf @Cobalti

Dude,I said Cumminis India.Do give another look.

Cummins india isn't an indian company nor does it produce tank engines... They produce industrial engines,automobile,etc... Also just because cummins produces civilian engines in other countries doesn't make it an indian company... Cummins is also producing similiar stuff in several other countries including China... It's called outsourcing... Tata manufactures cummins engines (non military stuff)...

 

[Killswitch]

Well what else do you expect??Who in their right mind would invest huge amount of money and man power on developing each and every nuts and bolts,all by themselves,for a measly 128 tanks??Sorry kid,companies do not role that way.It would be good for you to learn these things or better yet..................get a proper schooling before opening mouth and show your stupidity to everyone......or knowing you,it would be better to keep that pie hole shut for all together for the time being.
And oh yeah mate,do try to learn about globalization.Countries do not need to design and develop every subsystem all by themselves these days,because it's cheaper to buy them cots,from other nations.That's why,even the USA does not build every subsystem of their Abrams in country ,a big portion of its critical subsystems are of imported origin,for example its guns and power-pack and sights are of European origin.Same case with South Korean K2 Black Panther and the Altay - almost the entire tank is of foreign origin including but not limited to its armor,gun,engines,sights even ammo - every fucking
thing came from different countries!!I do not see the Turks whining and moaning about this!!Because they understand good business,they understand the concept of feasibility,same can not be told about immature crybabies like yourself though.

So again,before opening that mouth,do educate yourself,or better yet...............just keep shut and learn for the time being.



So basically you have no fuckking idea about what the term tot really means.You are probably just another teenager,who thinks he's got figured out all of it.Am I right or am I right??


Yeah right,as we do not have to import anything for assembling those T90S ,which we had received the 'full tot' for!!Really man,I'm just astonished by the sheer level of your stupidity and ignorance!!Come on now,ignorance can never be a bliss..............well,may be it can for ignorant like you but for others,it's a big pain in the @ss!!



And don't forget the dhakosla the Ruskies did with the fitment of air conditioners and subsequently what a fool of galactic magnitude they made of themselves when they failed to do it by themselves!!Comments like his makes one wonder when will these kids grow up and start talking sense.



A really enlightening piece.But unfortunately,it's gonna fall on his deaf ears.The guy in question has made a perception and unfortunately,he's got a huge ego,which won't make him accept his faults and he will just carry on at his course of abusing the DRDO and other government entities without an iota of logic to back his claims up.Better to ignore him altogether.



Sadly,nothing of that sort is ever gonna happen.You just do not know him yet,he's a basket case.

My father was one of the first people to work with Kraus Maffaei in the late 70s and early 80s on the ARJUN project. His biggest criticism of the project was that India was simply copying a German tank with no consideration for Indian terrain or infrastructure capabilities. In over 30 years the Tank is still made up of foreign components such as the engine, sights, transmission, etc. On top of that, the tank is far too heavy for Indias infrastructure to handle. I think India would be better off building the Armata. The T90 saga has been messy, but at least the army has a tank it can deploy afford ably across the country. Arjun is expensive and unsuitable to offensive warfare on Indian territory due to its weight.


Call me whatever you want, the army is moving towards a platform similar to the Armata, and the Russians are the furthest ahead in this category of armored vehicles.

 

[Indian Patriot]

Fucking bastard is actually very good at abusing

That son of a bitch called omega was given birth and raised by a crack whore, so don't pay attention to what he says. Best to put him in the ignore list.

Now coming back to the topic.

Like all things made by Indian PSUs, the Arjun is a copy of a foreign platform. In this case the Arjun is a copy of the German leopard. The problem is many Indians in PDF are illiterate and are an embarrassment to the country, they do not have any working knowledge but they love to show case their ignorance. What works for Germany will not work here. Germany does not have deserts, India has and that proves to be a problem.

Arjun is overweight, has an imported engine and is literally a foreign tank. So no need to get sentimental. It is best to invest in Russian or involve the domestic private sector.

Armata is sthe future while Arjun is 70s technology.

 

[Not So Good]

That son of a bitch called omega was given birth and raised by a crack whore, so don't pay attention to what he says. Best to put him in the ignore list.

Now coming back to the topic.

Like all things made by Indian PSUs, the Arjun is a copy of a foreign platform. In this case the Arjun is a copy of the German leopard. The problem is many Indians in PDF are illiterate and are an embarrassment to the country, they do not have any working knowledge but they love to show case their ignorance. What works for Germany will not work here. Germany does not have deserts, India has and that proves to be a problem.

Arjun is overweight, has an imported engine and is literally a foreign tank. So no need to get sentimental. It is best to invest in Russian or involve the domestic private sector.

Armata is sthe future while Arjun is 70s technology.

We can't rely on foreign tanks fore long

 

[Indian Patriot]

We can't rely on foreign tanks fore long

The problem with foreign tanks is they are designed for foreign terrain. T-72/ T-90 works because these tanks are light and because of Russian parentage they are rugged.

The Arjun is a carbon copy of Leopard 1 of Germany and its most important component, the engine is imported. So the Arjun is not even an indigenous tank like some fools would love to claim. Arjun is a foreign tank.

So instead of wasting time and money on a failure made by loser scientists of Indian PSUs it is better for Indian government to learn from established foreign countries like either France or Russia. Involve the private sector so that there is unacceptability and respect for deadline. India cannot afford to have a tank project running for nearly 40 years like the Arjun.

JV with a foreign country plus private sector should work for India. And until that happens the Armata is far far better than the junkyard garbage called Arjun. Even improved T-90s in greater numbers will help Indian army.