Arjun the worst tank ever

[Joe Shearer]

If this light tank falls in range of any MBT, it will be blown to bits on the very first hit, Cons of having a light tank armour at present technology level. While the Other full armoured MBT is very very likely to survive the first hit from this light tank. This type 15 better use its better power/weight intelligently for any chance in battle although it clearly has an advance on engine front.

As @PanzerKiel would have told you if he had been here, Indian experience with AMX tanks in 1965 was not awe inspiring. Either in the initial thrust by 12 Infantry Division into Chhamb towards Akhnoor, or in the 1 Armoured Division attack beyond Khem Karan. These light tanks seem to be one cut better than armoured cars. Good for reconnaissance and scouting, not good for standing toe to toe with MBTs. Rather like frigates in the Age of Sail, vis-a-vis a Line of Battle ship, even a fifth- or a sixth-rater.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Why don't you check out other light tanks for example? The French AMX-30 has a weight of 36 tonnes and only sports a 680 hp engine. I really don't understand your argument here.

Done that. Long before.

Yet you have failed to provide any convincing argument as to why a 1500 hp engine is needed in a 33 tonne tank.

True.

 

[Dustom999]

As @PanzerKiel would have told you if he had been here, Indian experience with AMX tanks in 1965 was not awe inspiring. Either in the initial thrust by 12 Infantry Division into Chhamb towards Akhnoor, or in the 1 Armoured Division attack beyond Khem Karan. These light tanks seem to be one cut better than armoured cars. Good for reconnaissance and scouting, not good for standing toe to toe with MBTs. Rather like frigates in the Age of Sail, vis-a-vis a Line of Battle ship, even a fifth- or a sixth-rater.

Yup! Completely agree. They are not in same class of MBTs. Can't take on probably any MBT,even old gen ones in taking a Hit.
However at the same time, most MBTs including T-90s have tractable max gradient of 30%. They can't climb anything more than that from a stand still and even on move for a longer duration. If they are going full steam ahead and then they encounter a 30*+ gradient obstacle, probably their momentum will take them across. But that is limited to small obstacle only.
On the other hand Type 15 is rated at a massive 60% gradient. 60% is just mind bending number even in specialised purpose built offroad jeep / SUV clubs.
So, in Himalayan terrain, type 15 can take up advantageous off road positions on battlefield,which no other mbt will be able to counter. They probably can fire and move and heavier MBts will simply not be able to chase them around to get into firing position.
All that is hypothesis, in reality they probably won't be given time to showcase their circus. But who knows, situation is very tricky in Himalayan theater and most probably light tanks will avoid a face-off with heavier tanks until they secure favourable terrain.

 

[Joe Shearer]

On the other hand Type 15 is rated at a massive 60% gradient. 60% is just mind bending number even in specialised purpose built offroad jeep / SUV clubs.
So, in Himalayan terrain, type 15 can take up advantageous off road positions on battlefield,which no other mbt will be able to counter. They probably can fire and move and heavier MBts will simply not be able to chase them around to get into firing position.

That is incredible!

From that, one can extrapolate what you have said, they will be used to go off to flanking positions at heights approximately 20% gradient and more, and ambush MBTs, if the Indian Army is so ill-advised as to persist in pushing them there, from those positions. As we all know, MBTs are peculiarly vulnerable on their top surfaces and the rearward surfaces, compared to their front protection or even their flanks.

Thank you very much for your intervention and the insights you have given us. Much appreciated.

 

[Joe Shearer]

On the other hand Type 15 is rated at a massive 60% gradient. 60% is just mind bending number even in specialised purpose built offroad jeep / SUV clubs.

I have seen it in a Force Motors vehicle that used to be known as Gurkha. It's years now, and I forget the name, but will never forget the awesome spectacle of it going apparently straight up hill. A slope that a real Gorkha might have hesitated to take on.

 

[Dustom999]

That is incredible!

From that, one can extrapolate what you have said, they will be used to go off to flanking positions at heights approximately 20% gradient and more, and ambush MBTs, if the Indian Army is so ill-advised as to persist in pushing them there, from those positions. As we all know, MBTs are peculiarly vulnerable on their top surfaces and the rearward surfaces, compared to their front protection or even their flanks.

Thank you very much for your intervention and the insights you have given us. Much appreciated.

Himalayas are unlike Rockies and Andie's very young fold mountains. Made mostly of sedimentary rocks.
I hope they get burried under a land slide trying to climb stupid stuff.

 

[Signalian]

@Signalian

#35.

I told you he was good.

@jbgt90

This is the man.

Looks like there is talk of a Light Tank for IA after all.

 

[Signalian]

However at the same time, most MBTs including T-90s have tractable max gradient of 30%. They can't climb anything more than that from a stand still and even on move for a longer duration. If they are going full steam ahead and then they encounter a 30*+ gradient obstacle, probably their momentum will take them across. But that is limited to small obstacle only.

What can engineers do about the highlighted part ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Looks like there is talk of a Light Tank for IA after all.

In my opinion, that will be a ghastly error. We need armoured cars/fire support vehicles/tank destroyers, whatever the current fashion in names is. Those will be much cheaper, they will perform the same functions, and they will be able to destroy the Chinese light tanks without much trouble; those tanks have fairly light protection. But monkey see, monkey do.

 

[Beefeatergin]

good analysis

then Indians got all butthurt About their tanks suckiness

 

[Joe Shearer]

What can engineers do about the highlighted part ?

In battle? Nothing.

In approaches to a forming up point, ramps can be built.

However, taking an MBT into terrain like this is asking for trouble. An MBT cannot carry around its own engineering detachment to deal with sudden patches of rocky ground with steep elevations.

 

[Signalian]

In my opinion, that will be a ghastly error. We need armoured cars/fire support vehicles/tank destroyers, whatever the current fashion in names is. Those will be much cheaper, they will perform the same functions, and they will be able to destroy the Chinese light tanks without much trouble; those tanks have fairly light protection. But monkey see, monkey do.

The highlighted ones that you mentioned can be wheeled also, not necessarily tracked. Though the talk of Tank Vs Tank is coming up in every post, there are ample chances that PLA used ATGM to destroy IA Tanks, while Type-15 supports PLA Infantry with its 105 mm gun to soften targets during an assault. I think PLA prefers mobility over armor or firepower in this region. Where as, India's limited option is T-90, which a MBT lacking mobility. In any case, a wheeled vehicle is expected to be more agile than tracked and probably faster.

 

[Beefeatergin]

In my opinion, that will be a ghastly error. We need armoured cars/fire support vehicles/tank destroyers, whatever the current fashion in names is. Those will be much cheaper, they will perform the same functions, and they will be able to destroy the Chinese light tanks without much trouble; those tanks have fairly light protection. But monkey see, monkey do.

Tracked vehicles have their advantages

 

[Signalian]

In battle? Nothing.

In approaches to a forming up point, ramps can be built.

However, taking an MBT into terrain like this is asking for trouble. An MBT cannot carry around its own engineering detachment to deal with sudden patches of rocky ground with steep elevations.

Both the Armored regiment and Assault Engineers have survey parties, who go through in-depth analysis of the terrain before the tanks are allowed to run all over that terrain. This is done not only to analyse probable mine fields but also locate strategic points and identify obstacles as no-go zone for Tanks.

 

[vishwambhar]

I was hearing the same thing from Indians but it was that Mig-21s were better than F-16s and Su-30mki is the raptor of the east. Now their tone is completely different.

Ohh common get over with MIG 21.... once a bad cannot be always a bad day.... those jets are being equipped with longer range missiles....

Anyways let's stick to the topic as I said that if bakhtar shikan has achieved kill over T80/90 and especially if Markawa then it's a capable ATGM but then NAGA is completely new type of ATGM compared to Bakhtar Shikan