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Arjun the worst tank ever

The highlighted ones that you mentioned can be wheeled also, not necessarily tracked.

I explicitly had wheeled options in mind.

Though the talk of Tank Vs Tank is coming up in every post, there are ample chances that PLA used ATGM to destroy IA Tanks, while Type-15 supports PLA Infantry with its 105 mm gun to soften targets during an assault. I think PLA prefers mobility over armor or firepower in this region.
  1. Why would the Indian Army NOT use ATGMs to destroy the Type-15 light tank?
  2. Mobility is precisely why I suggested that armoured cars/fire support vehicles/tank destroyers. Neither tracked vehicles nor the heavy armour of MBTs is necessary in what you have pointed out is an infantry support role.
Where as, India's limited option is T-90, which a MBT lacking mobility. In any case, a wheeled vehicle is expected to be more agile than tracked and probably faster.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If we are discussing the possibility that India is looking for a light tank and wishes to procure such a system, my remarks relate to that. The advantages of wheeled vehicles is precisely why I suggested that these vehicles mentioned are preferable to light tanks.

If, as you point out, we are talking only about what the Indian Army has at present, the T90, then this discussion is unnecessary.

Combining the two cases totally muddles the issue.
 
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Tracked vehicles have their advantages

Er, I expect they do, otherwise nobody would put tracks on their armoured vehicles. Thank you for your illuminating comment.

And thank you also for adding the contribution of a propagandist for the Russian armaments industry, who focusses on the advantages of Russian designs and technology over everything else in the world, in this discussion. Please be sure also that this is not an endorsement of that silly Indian YouTube video linked to this propaganda piece by Red Effect. It is purely to warn all members, specifically Indian members, against watching propaganda videos in the belief that those are composed in a vacuum.

I am not sure if you are already aware of the rooted inclination of the Indian Army to invest in Russian armoured equipment, due to a mixture of functional and dysfunctional reasons, and the active role played by Russian representatives in the promotion of these products in India. In case you wish to learn more, you might like to read the book "Courage and Conviction",by the former Chief of Army Staff, General V. K. Singh. It is not a good book, and it is not a good man, but it illustrates the limited point that is being made in this post.
 
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Both the Armored regiment and Assault Engineers have survey parties, who go through in-depth analysis of the terrain before the tanks are allowed to run all over that terrain. This is done not only to analyse probable mine fields but also locate strategic points and identify obstacles as no-go zone for Tanks.

This is perfectly valid for set-piece battles. Two things; once one has committed tanks to a theatre, there is not much choice left. The tanks are there, and a survey party coming back to say that the terrain is entirely unpassable is simply irrelevant. That decision will have to be taken long before.

These pictures will illustrate the point. Survey parties have an effect on the decision before shipping armoured vehicles out here; not after.

upload_2020-8-4_17-9-30.jpeg
images
images


Second, the Chinese will not fight static, set piece battles; they never have. Our experience in Arunachal and in Ladakh in 62 showed clearly that they decide their points of attack, and advance, are decided long before, and surveyed long before. An illustration is their use of the Bailley Trail. They also decide their points of defence, although they have not faced a situation, due to the Indian political leadership's inclination to avoid armed conflict, where they require to take a defensive position on their fronts with India.
 
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Ohh common get over with MIG 21.... once a bad cannot be always a bad day.... those jets are being equipped with longer range missiles....

Anyways let's stick to the topic as I said that if bakhtar shikan has achieved kill over T80/90 and especially if Markawa then it's a capable ATGM but then NAGA is completely new type of ATGM compared to Bakhtar Shikan

Do you seriously expect a sensible reply from a member who names himself Arjunk? You are wasting your time.
 
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Chacha,

Do you think I am one of those that shoots from the hip and says whatever is the first thing that comes to mind, or do you think I know my subject at least as well as other experts do, and reflect what I have learnt, abbreviated perhaps for the sake of the poor reader?

Do you think I do not know chapter and verse about this incident, and do you think that there are not reasons why I am reluctant to explain the details to people who do not want to know the truth, but only that part of the truth that shows India to be a failed technical state?

Suppose - just for a joke - I were to tell you offline what happened, would you agree to keep it to yourself? Or would you insist, as you are entitled to, that the sorry tale be repeated in public, so that the likes of @PradoTLC get some cheap thrills?

Tell me.


Cheap thrills?


What do you want to me to say ?

You spend 30 years trying to make a tank that looks like a German WWII tiger tank ..


when will you people ever get into your heads?... ie you people suck at engineering , production , manufacture, design , innovation and attention to detail.

you think I am exaggerating?

Look at picture of the first panzer II that came out in 1930s and the Tigers in the 1940s .. see what German engineers and industry built and delivered never mind the other deliverables like Me262, V2 rockets etc

and look what you indian cartoons could do even in this Information Age and peacetime..
 
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Cheap thrills?


What do you want to me to say ?

You spend 30 years trying to make a tank that looks like a German WWII tiger tank ..


when will you people ever get into your heads?... ie you people suck at engineering , production , manufacture, design , innovation and attention to detail.

you think I am exaggerating?

Look at picture of the first panzer II that came out in 1930s and the Tigers in the 1940s .. see what German engineers and industry built and delivered never mind the other deliverables like Me262, V2 rockets etc

and look what you indian cartoons could do even in this Information Age and peacetime..

Yup, there you go, cheap thrills.

First, find out what German industry was, in the 1930s; the vast amount of development that took place before they could do all this.

Second, find out - I say this because of an ironclad certainty that you don't know - what the British had left us with, and what we have done with it in 70 years (you can superimpose that on any period that you choose in any of the developed nations, to get a perspective).

I will not name the third desirable objective, because I do not talk about subjects that not positive.
 
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Yup, there you go, cheap thrills.

First, find out what German industry was, in the 1930s; the vast amount of development that took place before they could do all this.

Second, find out - I say this because of an ironclad certainty that you don't know - what the British had left us with, and what we have done with it in 70 years (you can superimpose that on any period that you choose in any of the developed nations, to get a perspective).

I will not name the third desirable objective, because I do not talk about subjects that not positive.


why?..

i thought you were a superpower no?..
 
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i think indian army wants take the tank on top of a mountain and then roll it down like a bowling ball.....

I really regret having used the phrase 'cheap thrills' earlier. It now cannot be used without becoming monotonous.
 
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India Wants to Match China’s Mountain Tank
The Indian Army's previous attempt didn't go well
DRDOlighttank.jpg


WIB LAND September 12, 2017 Robert Beckhusen

India17 tanks33
The Indian Army is in the early planning stages for a new light tank capable of traversing the rugged conditions of India’s mountainous northern borders. A directive from the Army setting requirements for the machine comes soon after China testedits own mountain tank in Tibet.

India and China have long-running border disputes at Aksai Chin in India’s northwest and Arunachal Pradesh in the northeast. In June 2017, a standoff ensued at Doklam, near Bhutan, when Chinese troops with construction machinery moved into a disputed territory to extend a road. Indian troops arrived and both sides faced off, and both withdrew in late August.

One mutual disadvantage India and China face is a paucity of railroads heading toward the frontier, although China has a terminal as far southwards as Lhasa, Tibet, some 180 miles away from Doklam. Freight trains vastly simplify the logistics of moving tanks and their supporting vehicles. Both countries are trying to fast-track rail construction closer to their borders — but share no direct rail connections between them.

In any case, main battle tanks perform poorly in mountains, which limit their room to maneuver and restrict their angles of fire, strain their engines on steep inclines while further burdening a tank army’s demanding logistical backbone.

At the same time, mountains give more places for infantry to hide from tanks, isolating them — generally speaking, tanks are at their most effective when employed en masse in open country — and then striking at weak points in their armor from above.

India’s border disputes. Illustration via Wikimedia
To be sure, India has a sizable tank army with more than 1,600 T-90s and 2,400 T-72s, plus 118 — and rising — domestically-designed Arjuns. While India would love to have the ability to send these in huge numbers to its northern borders, their military utility is limited compared to rapidly-deployable lighter tanks.

India has developed a light “tank” for mountain fighting before. In the 1980s, India’s defense research agency produced the DRDO, which combined the chassis from a BMP infantry fighting vehicle with a French GIAT TS-90 turret equipped with a 105-millimeter gun.

The machine’s trials continued into the 1990s, but it never entered into service.

Above — China’s ZTQ light tank. Photo via Chinese Internet. At top — India’s DRDO light tank. DRDO photo
India wants its new light tank to weigh around 22 tons — slightly heavier than the U.S. Army’s Stryker’s Mobile Gun System variant which has a 105-millimeter cannon. This means New Delhi’s future tank should be light enough to lift inside the Indian Air Force’s Il-76MD, C-17 and C-130J transport planes. It’ll probably be too heavy to air-drop with a parachute, however.

The Indian Army also wants its new tanks to operate at 3,000 meters above sea level and engage targets from 2,000 meters away with a main gun and anti-tank missiles, according to Defense News.

China is ahead of India here. The former’s 35-ton ZTQ light tank — or Xinqingtan — showed up for testing in Tibet in June 2017 and first appeared all the way back in 2010. This machine packs an autoloading 105-millimeter gun, a 35-millimeter grenade launcher and a 12.7-millimeter gun. China reportedly wants to field as many as 300 ZTQs. The design appears to be a smaller version of the MBT3000, a Chinese-made tank derived from the T-90.

Which is to demonstrate that China takes its mountain-fighting needs seriously. The ZTQ might be underpowered everywhere else, but it gives Beijing added punch in a potential, future border war on its periphery — which may be the most likely conflict China will face. No wonder India is trying to catch up.
 
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all these threads of what is worst in India is like something they developed many a times and that too 100 percent with local components and is proven world class in many battles ....
we will be wasting time on such threads by replying ( i wasted some 30 seconds to reply actually)

lets agree with them that everything in India is worst and everything in pakistan is world class..... that will make them happy and give good night sleep.... why fight if you dont want to win an useless argument?
 
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If it has taken out T80/90s then I must say it's still a deadly ATGM but then Bakhtar Shikan taking out T80 should be worrisome for you as then imagine what our deadly NAGAs will do to your T80 UDs... remember Naga is a generation ahead of Bakhtar Shikan my friend....

yes when nag is built and deployed In number would be a weapon to contend with

That is not correct. It proved to be easier to move through desert sand than the T72, that was to become the T90. When they investigated, they found that the Arjun weighed less per square foot of pressure on the ground than the T72, because of the distribution of the tracks and the weight of the tank on the tracks.

lol, heheheh yes yes little one , when you start with with something big a small part of it is still big, coupled with temperature extremes very hot in the desert and very cold in the Himalayas Arjun seems to fail.


Ohh common get over with MIG 21.... once a bad cannot be always a bad day.... those jets are being equipped with longer range missiles....

Anyways let's stick to the topic as I said that if bakhtar shikan has achieved kill over T80/90 and especially if Markawa then it's a capable ATGM but then NAGA is completely new type of ATGM compared to Bakhtar Shikan

why not talk about the mig21 and su30 mki they were sold as f-15 killers after cope India but in battle both jets proved incapable going into the wind with a whimper. Similarly Moving a MBT onto mountains is a stupid political stunt. I understand that the Indian goverment does not think much about their soldiers , to them these are cannon fodder but these people have lives, families why put them into this picarious a situation with no strategic or tactical advantage....

Kv
 
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