Are you less Pakistani if you do not speak Urdu or were raised primarily abroad

[Jungibaaz]

For millions of Pakistanis in even Pakistan, Urdu is a second language, same goes for expats. Expats should learn their native language imo, and teach their kids so that they don’t lose touch. In order for this to happen while raising kids abroad, you need real effort and emphasis placed on learning the native language. For example, set a rule in the house that only Urdu will be spoken, English they’ll become proficient in anyway outside of the home. You also need to actively teach them how to read and write the script.

But I digress, I don’t see one’s being Pakistani solely defined by ability to speak the native language, especially given how few second and third gen expats are able to speak half decent Urdu.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Conversely then, if an Indian, for example speaks Urdu, does that make him a Pakistani?

Urdu is spoken in India too

Assalamualikum @HalfMoon

 

[Iltutmish]

I speak German very well, so well, that I had the best A level exam of the entire school back then. Most of my thinking is of course influenced by my time here in Germany (almost 30 years now) but I still prefer "aapne bande" (South Asians, Muslim academics, random Pakistani uncles and aunties ) as my main contacts. I have some German friends as well, but there are some differences that make it difficult to have a deeper friendship.

I speak a mixture of Punjabi and Urdu as my mothers tongue. I talk these "pidgin" with my parents and my wife, who is also from Pakistan, German is the language I speak with my siblings (and English to you guys ).

We prepare Pakistani food, the adhere to the main religion in Pakistan, we speak the language, we dress up at Eid in our traditional attire, which looks amazing and so on and so forth.

I don't care if some Pakistanis living in Pakistan think that I am less of a Pakistani than them. I say living in the diaspora made me a more proud Muslim, who appreciates the manifestation and creation of Pakistan due to his Muslim background! Sometimes my uncles say that I am not a real Pakistani due to the fact that I don't send them ridiculous amounts of money for no reason. The same uncles who beg me to get them a visa to Germany to live off the dole. Some of my relatives think that I am a wannabe-gora-rich-kid with unlimited money who doesn't want to share is unlimited wealth. But I really don't care about that. It's like a German saying that I am not German enough in their standards. Who cares?

Pakistan needs to becom an affluent society in its own right. But the mentality of the people is blocking any progress. and as @Crusher stated correctly, most Pakistani think that going to Europe is a get-rich-quick-scheme with no own effort. I earned everything I have here, it was hard and we expereniced some hard financial times here in Germany (never on social welfare alhamdulillah!).

The Turkish community - that doesn't have the strong Islamic identy as we do - has the same problems back in Turkey. The Germans doesn't accept them as their equals due to their brown skin and their names containing Ös and Üs even thoug they are assimilated and back in Turkey they are the "Almans" with no connection to Turkey.

Live your own life and strive for excellence as our beloved Prophet (PBUH) did. No need to impress simple minded people

 

[Longhorn]

Urdu is spoken in India too

Assalamualikum @HalfMoon

Yes we know that.

 

[Mr.Cringeworth]

There are 8.8 Million Pakistanis in the diaspora living in many corners of the world mainly in the Anglosphere(UK,Canada,USA,NZ and Australia) and the GCC Arab states. At least 3-4 generations have lived abroad many of us primarily speak the English language daily this forum run by expats embodies that however they are many "experts" who deride those Pakistanis that dont speak Urdu as non-Pakistani or dont know Pakistan as if expats visiting only in summers or once few years have the same knowledge or know how of daily dealings than local who was born there.For Pakistani news I do rely on Pakistani media by having relatives or my parents translate because I find the content in English tend to be biased or done by Pakistani expats abroad or small "elite clique".

No but if you think you're better than us than yes you're not a true Pakistani, i have seen many ex pats who bad mouth Pakistan the first opportunity they get.

 

[Yaseen1]

there are overseas Pakistanis who love Pakistan but they are few,most of them not like Pakistan and prefer to avail good life abroad,I know people who immigrated to u.k and they dislike Pakistan and not want to return back

 

[313ghazi]

That is the biggest lie that people often tell when asked why did you come to Europe. I remember a funny situation in Germany when I was sitting in a gathering of around 20 Pakistani guys all from Gujranwala, Gujrat, Jehlum, Azad Kashmir etc., one guy was new. And an old Pakistani guy who was living in Germany since long time asked this new guy why did you come to Germany. The new guy answered in Punjabi "Bas ji roti kaman ayay aan", all the old Pakistanis laughed at him and one of them said to this guy, "Puttar tu roti kaman nai aya, tu ameer banan aya ain, je sirf roti kamani hovay te oh te banda Pakistan vi kama lainda" . No Pakistani immigrates to Europe, America, middle east etc. just to earn bread, everyone wants to become rich that is the main reason why they immigrate to foreign countries, if anyone says contrary to that he is just lying like our newly arrived immigrant case in Germany that I wrote about earlier.

That's stupid - it depends on the conditions of people back home. Tomorrow you people will say all those labouring in Dubai and Qatar are there for tourism. Not everyone who migrated was a rich burger type who wanted a better life.

My family left everything behind in IOK and escaped to save their lives. We had literally nothing. My grandfather died whilst my father was still an infant. They lived in 1 room with the cattle tied in the other end of the room during the winter. The kids had 1 or 2 pair of clothes, dad went to school without shoes. He talks about how the summer sun heated the stone and sand where we live and how it burnt his feet when walking on it. We survived on just the land, the only cash they had was if they sold a goat every now and then. This is the story of millions of Pakistani migrants across the world.

Today you come to AJK and see the villas and the landcruisers and you cannot see the extreme poverty our fathers and grandfathers saw 60 years ago. I don't exagerate that our situation was no different to those in Thar today.

Today you men who migrate - i can understand that about. I know someone in our family who migrated whilst having a decent job in the police, another who migrated whilst leaving a successful tailoring business. You can say that of these people, people who had homes to live in, clothes to wear, food to eat - but not of the children who worked from age 12 trying to earn enough money to buy second hand books to take to school, or were beaten b y the school master because they couldn't pay fees.

I was born in Britain - i didn't see any of this, but my father did. He spent his life trying to go back, but Govt is so shit that even today the conditon of those people in our area who don't have expat money is the same. InshaAllah next time i go back i want to take pictures and document stories of the abject poverty in our region - it is the failure of AJK govt, a cesspit of snakes.

 

[313ghazi]

To answer the original question; yes and no.

I don't think you are less Pakistani, but I think all Pakistani should know the language, it is our national language.

I speak English and Mirpuri fluently, but broken Urdu. I can understand perfectly fine, but my grammar is terrible when speaking Urdu unless i stop and think about my sentence. writing is non existent and reading is like trying to un-encrypt something. Words in my vocabulary i can work out easy, words i don't know i sound like a class dunce trying to figure them out - much to my wifes amusement.

Need to find a good online course or something to teach me Urdu.

 

[Azadkashmir]

That's stupid - it depends on the conditions of people back home. Tomorrow you people will say all those labouring in Dubai and Qatar are there for tourism. Not everyone who migrated was a rich burger type who wanted a better life.

My family left everything behind in IOK and escaped to save their lives. We had literally nothing. My grandfather died whilst my father was still an infant. They lived in 1 room with the cattle tied in the other end of the room during the winter. The kids had 1 or 2 pair of clothes, dad went to school without shoes. He talks about how the summer sun heated the stone and sand where we live and how it burnt his feet when walking on it. We survived on just the land, the only cash they had was if they sold a goat every now and then. This is the story of millions of Pakistani migrants across the world.

Today you come to AJK and see the villas and the landcruisers and you cannot see the extreme poverty our fathers and grandfathers saw 60 years ago. I don't exagerate that our situation was no different to those in Thar today.

Today you men who migrate - i can understand that about. I know someone in our family who migrated whilst having a decent job in the police, another who migrated whilst leaving a successful tailoring business. You can say that of these people, people who had homes to live in, clothes to wear, food to eat - but not of the children who worked from age 12 trying to earn enough money to buy second hand books to take to school, or were beaten b y the school master because they couldn't pay fees.

I was born in Britain - i didn't see any of this, but my father did. He spent his life trying to go back, but Govt is so shit that even today the conditon of those people in our area who don't have expat money is the same. InshaAllah next time i go back i want to take pictures and document stories of the abject poverty in our region - it is the failure of AJK govt, a cesspit of snakes.

bro i feel you all the fcuking way.

 

[fisher1]

There are 8.8 Million Pakistanis in the diaspora living in many corners of the world mainly in the Anglosphere(UK,Canada,USA,NZ and Australia) and the GCC Arab states. At least 3-4 generations have lived abroad many of us primarily speak the English language daily this forum run by expats embodies that however they are many "experts" who deride those Pakistanis that dont speak Urdu as non-Pakistani or dont know Pakistan as if expats visiting only in summers or once few years have the same knowledge or know how of daily dealings than local who was born there.For Pakistani news I do rely on Pakistani media by having relatives or my parents translate because I find the content in English tend to be biased or done by Pakistani expats abroad or small "elite clique".

How can someone who doesn't live his life in a place know better or equal to a person who spends his life there?

Asking relatives or friends is no substitute for experiencing it yourself.

Let me give you an example.

I don't give any crap about George Floyd or racism in US. Because to me, it feels like nothing and just nonsense hyped drama. Because i have experienced and seen far worse in Pakistan. But to an American, what happened to George Floyd is unimaginable and height of oppression.

I can't experience what Americans feel unless i lived there. It's impossible.

So yes, expats especially the ones who have made Pakistan a vacation resort are clueless about Pakistan.

Pakistan isn't a religion. I don't know what less Pakistani even means. You're either a Pakistani or not. The question is about knowledge and experience of Pakistan which expats obviously will have less or nome about Pakistan.

That's stupid - it depends on the conditions of people back home. Tomorrow you people will say all those labouring in Dubai and Qatar are there for tourism. Not everyone who migrated was a rich burger type who wanted a better life.

My family left everything behind in IOK and escaped to save their lives. We had literally nothing. My grandfather died whilst my father was still an infant. They lived in 1 room with the cattle tied in the other end of the room during the winter. The kids had 1 or 2 pair of clothes, dad went to school without shoes. He talks about how the summer sun heated the stone and sand where we live and how it burnt his feet when walking on it. We survived on just the land, the only cash they had was if they sold a goat every now and then. This is the story of millions of Pakistani migrants across the world.

Today you come to AJK and see the villas and the landcruisers and you cannot see the extreme poverty our fathers and grandfathers saw 60 years ago. I don't exagerate that our situation was no different to those in Thar today.

Today you men who migrate - i can understand that about. I know someone in our family who migrated whilst having a decent job in the police, another who migrated whilst leaving a successful tailoring business. You can say that of these people, people who had homes to live in, clothes to wear, food to eat - but not of the children who worked from age 12 trying to earn enough money to buy second hand books to take to school, or were beaten b y the school master because they couldn't pay fees.

I was born in Britain - i didn't see any of this, but my father did. He spent his life trying to go back, but Govt is so shit that even today the conditon of those people in our area who don't have expat money is the same. InshaAllah next time i go back i want to take pictures and document stories of the abject poverty in our region - it is the failure of AJK govt, a cesspit of snakes.

I agree with Crusher. Maybe in past, it was easy to migrate to other countries. Today, only the extreme rich can even get a visa.

I know because i have tried. UK/US, European countries visa is so expensive, average Pakistanis spends half his life even earning that much.

Arab countries is better but people who can afford Arab countries visa also don't have any fear of starving in Pakistan.

The absolute poor who have to struggle for food, it's impossible for them to even dream about a visa to any country.

See this proves my point. You have no idea about the intimate details of Pakistan like this.

@Crusher is absolutely right. People flying outside Pakistan do it seeking a better quality of life and getting rich.

 

[VCheng]

"Puttar tu roti kaman nai aya, tu ameer banan aya ain, je sirf roti kamani hovay te oh te banda Pakistan vi kama lainda"

You say that as if it were a bad thing. Even Mohammad PBUH and Ali RA prayed to Allah to be saved from poverty.

 

[Old School]

Rural Pakistan is the real Pakistan. There is even a big cultural conflict between the rural Pakistanis and the urban elites. Language is only an expression of a culture. The important factor is how strong the cultural bond is. Genetics and paper documents are far less significant. A Pakistani is the one who practices and shares the cultural and philosophical values of PAKISTAN. Most importantly, rural PAKISTAN.

 

[313ghazi]

How can someone who doesn't live his life in a place know better or equal to a person who spends his life there?

Asking relatives or friends is no substitute for experiencing it yourself.

Let me give you an example.

I don't give any crap about George Floyd or racism in US. Because to me, it feels like nothing and just nonsense hyped drama. Because i have experienced and seen far worse in Pakistan. But to an American, what happened to George Floyd is unimaginable and height of oppression.

I can't experience what Americans feel unless i lived there. It's impossible.

So yes, expats especially the ones who have made Pakistan a vacation resort are clueless about Pakistan.

Pakistan isn't a religion. I don't know what less Pakistani even means. You're either a Pakistani or not. The question is about knowledge and experience of Pakistan which expats obviously will have less or nome about Pakistan.



I agree with Crusher. Maybe in past, it was easy to migrate to other countries. Today, only the extreme rich can even get a visa.

I know because i have tried. UK/US, European countries visa is so expensive, average Pakistanis spends half his life even earning that much.

Arab countries is better but people who can afford Arab countries visa also don't have any fear of starving in Pakistan.

The absolute poor who have to struggle for food, it's impossible for them to even dream about a visa to any country.

See this proves my point. You have no idea about the intimate details of Pakistan like this.

@Crusher is absolutely right. People flying outside Pakistan do it seeking a better quality of life and getting rich.

Gents in the 60s when people like my dad migrated they were offering visas for labourers from commonwealth countries. GoP managed to get priority to those impacted by building of Mangla dam. That is how so many mirpuri came to the UK. Same as afrocarribean community and Indians. There were no visa regulations. Britain needed the manpower after the war to rebuild.

Nowadays people pay lakhs for visas. I think many of them are better off spending that on a small business. Especially people who come as international students.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mirpuris

Read this page. They even provided financial and legal support.

 

[FL-COP]

You are a US citizen not a Pakistani.

I have dual citizenship that makes me a Pakistani American.

 

[Itachi]

Pakistan gave up on us and left us to die.

You should make a thread on that and give your side of the matter. And tag me and others interested (from this thread).

You should know that Hyderabadi Indian Muslims are held in a high esteem by many Pakistanis of historical knowledge.