Are ‘war-mongers’ narrating the China-India story?

[CardSharp]

Well I wouldn't say that the news is completely true. This is certainly true for the official media which is quite "hexie" (harmonious) and tries to not antagonize other nations, Japan and the U.S. included. To the majority of Chinese people India is very mysterious and we are more curious about the Indian culture and customs than out right "threatened" by India. Here is a personal story: I didn't know that there was a War between China and India in the 60s until I learned about it in a U.S. debate class when I was 16!

I'll one up you. I didn't know about the war until this year (despite being a history nut) and I knew next to nothing about India either (I rarely asked my Indian friends about stuff like this)

This part of the reason why I joined the forum. I became interested in the politics of the sub-continent.

 

[Developereo]

Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggie" until you can find a stick.

It is pointless to talk about friendship or enmity in the absence of any direct conflict. Everybody gets along splendidly when times are good. It is precisely in times of resource contention that divisions emerge, often along ethnic lines. India and China can be the best of friends during 'normal' times but, when a serious enough dispute arises, it will turn to armed conflict.

Case in point: everyone points to the US as a showcase of multiculturalism yet there was a study few years back that showed deep racial/ethnic divisions in US society that only show up during times of strife or when people answer candidly and anonymously. The vast majority of respondents aligned themselves ethnically and had negative stereotypes of other ethnicities.

 

[CardSharp]

^^^^^
I don't think so.

 

[Developereo]

^^^^^
I don't think so.

I can't find the one that made the news, but here's another one:
How Do Americans View One Another? The Persistence of Racial/Ethnic Stereotypes

On the issue of India-China relations, the fact is that the two countries are competitors in almost every sphere. The areas where they find common ground for partnership, climate change, etc., are few and far between and are temporary alliances in the face of a common enemy, i.e Western dominance.

The concept of an 'Asian partnership' is laughably ridiculous since both the Indians and the Chinese view themselves primarily as Indians and Chinese, respectively. Either side will gladly form an alliance with the West if it offers them a better deal for their nation. Very few people identify with the nebulous concept of being an 'Asian'.

 

[CardSharp]

I can't find the one that made the news, but here's another one:
How Do Americans View One Another? The Persistence of Racial/Ethnic Stereotypes

1) that's not what diplomacy is for.
2) what could presage a change from "normal" to not normal times? What is the definition? are all hard times the same or can they be different?
3) Competition is more intense in harder times but this doesn't make your analogy valid. (You would have difficulty proving your analogy comparing ethnic groups in the US and nation state actors like Indian and China)
4) America a showcase of mulitculturalism before 9/11?

 

[Developereo]

2) what could presage a change from "normal" to not normal times? What is the definition? are all hard times the same or can they be different?

Any situation of real or perceived contention for resources brings out the racial divide. Some examples:
- the biggest complaints about Affirmative Action in California universities come from Asians because they feel they lose out seats to blacks and Latinos.
- tensions between Jewish and black communities routinely surface in New York.
- there is always some news or other of fighting between Latino, black, Russian, Vietnamese, Chinese, etc. gangs.
- many dark-skinned customers, including Latinos and blacks, complain about discrimination from Asian shop owners.

You would have difficulty proving your analogy comparing ethnic groups in the US and nation state actors like Indian and China

The rivalry is even more intense, if anything, because the ethnic divide is compounded by language, nationalism, history and cultural and religious affiliations. Every single one of these factors delineates the two gropus. The only factor in favor of cohesion is the nebulous 'Asian' identity which, as I have mentioned, is non-existant for most people.

4) America a showcase of mulitculturalism before 9/11?

I used to have a rosy attitude like your before 9/11. In fact I remember having some heated debates with an Indian colleague who asserted that, under tension, people tend to coalesce around ethnic groups. Unfortunately, since 9/11, I have reluctantly come to agree with his position. Leaving aside real life, we see the evidence right in this forum where various ethnic groups, including some Indians and Vietnamese, rarely miss an opportunity to jump on the Islam-bashing bandwagon. All because the media has legitimized anti-Islam bigotry.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Cardsharp I think this is one case I have to disagree with you on.

I think that all people, regardless of their ethnicity and upbringing, is, at some subconscious level, racist. There is a reason that we still have nations and wars and this is because of the human desire to divide into different tribes - us vs. them if you will. There has been tremendous progress in racial/religious tolerance all around the world but the I'm afraid that some parts of the old prejudices are still alive even here in the states. Look at all the racist/bigoted comments that people post on youtube, 4chan, and yahoo news!

When situations get desperate, as our friend Develpero puts it, people do tend to divide up along racial/religious lines. Take prison gangs for example. You have black gangs, hispanic gangs, white gangs and asian gangs and very rarely do people of different ethnicity coroborate with one another.

 

[TheInvisible]

Are you kidding me, PDF has tons of racists. All you need is one dis-agreement that people jump on toot the racists horns. Worse are those who "point" fingers at others as racists, while making racist statements.

That's true but here the mods take up action on what they seem unfit. But in you tube its open mud slinging.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Cardsharp I think this is one case I have to disagree with you on.

I think that all people, regardless of their ethnicity and upbringing, is, at some subconscious level, racist. There is a reason that we still have nations and wars and this is because of the human desire to divide into different tribes - us vs. them if you will. There has been tremendous progress in racial/religious tolerance all around the world but the I'm afraid that some parts of the old prejudices are still alive even here in the states. Look at all the racist/bigoted comments that people post on youtube, 4chan, and yahoo news!

When situations get desperate, as our friend Develpero puts it, people do tend to divide up along racial/religious lines. Take prison gangs for example. You have black gangs, hispanic gangs, white gangs and asian gangs and very rarely do people of different ethnicity coroborate with one another.

That's an interesting point.

The human mind is comfortable with stereotyping/generalization, but I don't think that everyone is a bit racist.

I think if you said that "Everyone is slightly prejudiced" then I would agree with that.

Look at China for example, some of the greatest divides are not based on race, but regarding whether or not someone comes from "the cities".... or "the countryside".

In other countries, "class divide" can be much stronger than racial divide, i.e. the division between the "upper class" and the "lower class" of income groups.

 

[TheInvisible]

Oh there's little chance I'm going to form an opinion of the whole of the Indian people by the behaviour of a few clowns around here and I'd ask people not form an opinion of all Chinese people based on me

What happens when the political leaders of China start behaving like clowns, have one rules for themselves but have no rules for their behavior

Some examples of what they expect from others and how they behave with others.
1. If China thinks its nearest seas are its spheres of interest then US or no other navy should not enter those seas.

But China does not have any problem in setting up ports in Bay of Bengal and Arabian Sea. In this case their help will become benevolent economic partnership.

2. China has right to harass any navy or air-force that enters its spheres of influence. I hope you would remember how Chinese navy and air force harassed their compatriots from US.

But China expects India not to raise issues in any of the developments it is making around India.

3. Aksai Chin or South China Sea every thing claimed by them should belong to them.

There can be only one outcome to negotiation, resolve on China's terms.

4. Over react when they feel their interest are compromised. I hope you would remember how a Japanese envoy was summoned in Beijing when the Japanese navy arrested few Chinese fishermen when they crossed international waters.

But they can conveniently keep on provoking India and show no respect Indian diplomatic protests. Few examples, protest when our PM visits Arunachal Pradesh, Issue Stapled Visa, Deny Visa to Indian Defence Staff.

List of China's provocations are limitless, you can just keep going on typing.

Ok Mr. Cardsharp please tell me how to understand a country when their political leaders start behaving like clowns.

I hope you would be able to understand that the Indian political response have always been diplomatic and certainly not clownish.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Ok Mr. Cardsharp please tell me how to understand a country when their political leaders start behaving like clowns.

I hope you would be able to understand that the Indian political response have always been diplomatic and certainly not clownish.

OK so you think that my Chinese government is "clownish"... but you do not think the Indian government has ever been clownish?

I thought that most Indians didn't like their politicians because of the corruption? (Like the CWG for example).

Regarding the geostrategic moves of the Chinese government, you can certainly criticise them, and on some points I would even agree with you. For example I don't think they should have denied the visa to the Indian General.

What you're mainly talking about in your post, is the "expectations" of the Chinese government.

But why do you need to follow the "expectations" of the Chinese government? You don't have to follow the expectations, the GoI just does it anyway.

 

[lemurian]

I can't find the one that made the news, but here's another one:
How Do Americans View One Another? The Persistence of Racial/Ethnic Stereotypes

On the issue of India-China relations, the fact is that the two countries are competitors in almost every sphere. The areas where they find common ground for partnership, climate change, etc., are few and far between and are temporary alliances in the face of a common enemy, i.e Western dominance.

The concept of an 'Asian partnership' is laughably ridiculous since both the Indians and the Chinese view themselves primarily as Indians and Chinese, respectively. Either side will gladly form an alliance with the West if it offers them a better deal for their nation. Very few people identify with the nebulous concept of being an 'Asian'.

The key point is "mutual benefit". Foreign policies are not run on the basis of human psychology. If China and India cannot find a common ground,as you seem to suggest, there will be a problem. Of course, there is a "herd mentality" even within a country. That is why you have the Indian Government running programs on national integration. About your remark on differences eventually spilling out in a time of conflict, in my own personal experience, its not possible to quantify human behaviour on such terms. Feel free to disagree

 

[lemurian]

deleted post...

 

[TheInvisible]

OK so you think that my Chinese government is "clownish"... but you do not think the Indian government has ever been clownish?

I thought that most Indians didn't like their politicians because of the corruption? (Like the CWG for example).

Regarding the geostrategic moves of the Chinese government, you can certainly criticise them, and on some points I would even agree with you. For example I don't think they should have denied the visa to the Indian General.

What you're mainly talking about in your post, is the "expectations" of the Chinese government.

But why do you need to follow the "expectations" of the Chinese government? You don't have to follow the expectations, the GoI just does it anyway.

I only said that our political leaders were not clownish only in respect to their diplomatic response to China. This way of response is always interpreted by China as a sign of Indian weakness.

Our political leaders may be clownish or corrupted or sadistic or any thing ugly in other areas, but these are not related to topic and certainly not related to Indian response to China's overtures, so lets avoid discussing them to stay on track as there are many skeletons in both our cupboards.

 

[Developereo]

The key point is "mutual benefit".

Correction: it's "self interest". Everything, except for altrustic humanitarian work, ultimately boils down to self-interest. Mutual cooperation will only be pursued if it perceived to ultimately lead to self-interest. This concept of Asian unity is nonsense -- actually it's a code word for "anti-Western dominance". India or China will abandon Asian unity and cut a deal with the West if it provides a better outcome for that nation.

Foreign policies are not run on the basis of human psychology

Everything humans do is on the basis of human psychology, whether it be individual or group psychology.

About your remark on differences eventually spilling out in a time of conflict, in my own personal experience, its not possible to quantify human behaviour on such terms. Feel free to disagree

I am continually amazed to find educated, urbane, middle class professionals let loose with the most vile anti-Islam and anti-Arab remarks when they think I am a Hindu Indian. Because the media has legitimized this bigotry.

Remeber the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, Kosovo, Rwanda, Cambodia, etc. Right now we see open Islamophobia turning mainstream in Europe which, according to Holocaust survivors, is reminiscent of the early days of Nazi anti-Semitism in Germany. If you think these times are somehow different and ordinary people cannot be brainwashed into becoming racists, you are ignoring history.