An Indian Tale Of Woe : A submarine race in the region

[Nishan_101]

PN's Plan should be be 1st Agosta-90B from France, 2nd and 3rd would be assembled, 4th and 5th would be manufactured and last 6th and 7th one too.
1st Agosta-90B:1999
2nd and 3rd Agosta-90B:2001
4th and 5th Agosta-90B: 2004
6th and 7th Agosta-90B: 2007
All this can be achieved by utilizing the two shipyards. Although we have two dry docks as well for other ships maintenance but I also would like to say that if PN has taken some bold decisions in 1999/2000 like making a third shipyard at KE&SWs along with a third dry dock as well and upgrading the whole facility. Also setup a plan in 1999 to upgrade Agosta-70s to a similar Subtics level as Agosta-90B to remain in service till 2015 then the situation now will be totally different.

Also in the means time PN can put some money in JV with France like 25-30% share in Scorpion Program in 2000 along with Andrasta to add another 7 submarines starting its manufacturing in 2007 and completing in 2015 along with 5 Andrasta Submarines too. And then moving towards Merlin Program to field another 7 of these and developing another Block-II of ANDRASTA to field the fleet.

 

[Alphacharlie]

I have seen in many articles here that if any author is hell bent on bashing any country (be it India, Pak, or any other) than he sees doomsday scenario for that country in everything & does not have the courtesy to mention any silver lining, so this makes the article completely one sided & biased, There are many faults in this articles:

1. It is true that first scorpene is delayed by 3 years to 2015 (from original schedule of 2012), but IN will get each subsequent subs at an interval of 6 months (not a year) thus the delivery of last sub will be by 2018 (a delay of just 1 year as the original timeline was of 2017).

2. No doubt there is a delay in the project but on the positive note, it has given immense expertise & tech. to Indian shipyards so that they can design there own subs in the future without depending on any foreign power for help.

3. Each Indian action cannot be seen as a reaction to what Pakistan purchase or in this case Pakistan navy purchase (was INS viky purchase a reaction to PN??). PN can no way be compared to IN, IN is seen as a stabilizing force of the IOR region & PN is more of a coastal/brown water navy, each have it's own priority, PN is a defensive force for which subs are the best vessel to defend itself against any IN attack, while IN is in somewhat direct competition with PLAN for domination of entire IOR which make IN giving priorities to ACs, Frigates, Destroyers, etc. & not just subs.

4. Every time a discussion of IN subs takes place there is only talk of how obsolete it's subs have become, people conveniently forget that the oldest IN subs were inducted in 1986 (26 years old) whereas 5 out of 8 subs that PN has, were inducted before IN's oldest subs ( so which have more obsolete fleet??).

5. Whatever one say IN sub fleet stands today at no. 5 in the world (behind US, China, Russia, France) in nos. & it will only grow in years to come with these planned inductions:

6+3 = 9 scorpenes, 6 P-75I, 3 Arihant class nuke subs, 2 leased akula II, making it 20 technologically advanced subs to be inducted in 10-15 years time. Plus there are plans to make atleast 2 classes of indigenous subs (6 sub each class).

These inductions will make the sub fleet of IN at par among the major military powers like the US, China & Russia, so any talk of a submarine race b/w PN & IN is just an illusion, as IN will be way ahead of PN in a decade, with the induction of SSBNs,SSNs, subs with AIP, indigenous subs etc.

Correction.

Pakistan has 5 Submarines not 8. (3 Agosta 90 and 2 Antinquated Agosta 70) + 3 Midget Subs
No Midlife or Life-Ex upgrades on Agosta 70.

Indian Navy has 18 Midget Subs which are not included when Combatants are counted.

 

[Basbug]

Are type 214s any good? I know we ordered six type 214 submarine built in Turkey.

 

[Vendetta]

hmmmm..........

 

[Penguin]

Are type 214s any good? I know we ordered six type 214 submarine built in Turkey.

They probably are, though different from 212A. AFAIK 214 is new features of 212A grafted onto commercially succesfull 209. 212A has many features (e.g. choice of - more expensive - hull materials) tailored for Bundesmarine/Baltic operations.

 

[Cheetah786]

it takes time to design your own nuclear submarine , and yeah we have completed the first one and its currently undergoing sea trials , with 5 more to follow .

But i still bet Kayani pees a little , everytime he thinks about that khokha

Well he cant Pee a lot on it its just a Khokha

 

[gslv mk3]

Well he cant Pee a lot on it its just a Khokha

maybe on F22p class fishing boat

 

[Storm Force]

What is it with pakistanis & mindsets,

WITH THEIR AIR FORCE they keep going on about their wonderful TINY FLEET OF 16s how they are a answer to everything

AND NOW SOMEBODY TELLS ABT INDIAN NAVAL WOES and its scorpene induction costing $5 billion and been delayed AND how mighty and efficient their (pakistani ) 20 year older previous generation AGOSTA FLEET OF three measly subs are ruling the indian ocean.

get real people

You people could nt evendream of license building a TUG BOAT EVER MIND A nuclear sub

 

[Penguin]

Please keep derogatory remarks to yourselves: they are waisted on any non-pakistanis and non-indians and detract from genuine discussion of naval topics.


Aaaarrrr!

 

[Inception-06]

Correction.

Pakistan has 5 Submarines not 8. (3 Agosta 90 and 2 Antinquated Agosta 70) + 3 Midget Subs
No Midlife or Life-Ex upgrades on Agosta 70.

Indian Navy has 18 Midget Subs which are not included when Combatants are counted.

And you are also wrong the both Agosta 70 were upgraded according to many Internet sources !

http://forum.*********************/index.php?showtopic=90739

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-navy/73691-dcns-wins-sub-contract-pakistan.html


DCNS Wins Sub Contract With Pakistan


France – French naval company DCNS won a contract this summer its supply two Subtics combat management systems for Pakistan's Agosta 70 diesel-electric submarine fleet, industry executives said.

DCNS signed in June a contract for modernization of Agosta 70 boats, described as "very old subs," for an Asian country, Alain Cursat, DCNS marketing manager for submarine combat systems, told journalists. Cursat declined to identify the country. But other industry sources said Pakistan was the customer. One industry executive said the prospect of selling new submarines to Pakistan had gone cold as the Navy was modernizing its existing Agosta fleet, while a second executive said Pakistan was the only operator of the Agosta boat in the region.

Pakistan bought the Agosta diesel-electric submarine, built by DCNS, in the mid 1990s and had been looking to add to its fleet with more modern boats.

DCNS had pitched the Marlin, a submarine derived from the Scorpene boat co-developed with Spain, but the Pakistan Navy favored the rival U214 boat from German archrival Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW). The Pakistan Navy has not signed with HDW.

DCNS is expecting other contract wins for the Subtics system, notably among the fleet of U209 boats operated by South American navies, as operators look to implement a midlife upgrade of their conventional (SSK) submarines, Cursat said.

DCNS expects to capture about 10 more modernization contracts for its Subtics system over the next 10 years, he said.

A sale to Pakistan of new submarine technology is a sensitive issue as DCNS sold six Scorpene submarines to India for $3.9 billion in 2005. The boats are being built locally by Mazagon Docks but the program has fallen behind because of technical problems.

Subtics stands for submarine tactical integrated combat system. The system, which integrates sensors and weapons, can be retrofitted on boats of different manufacture, including Russian build, Cursat said.

DCNS last year signed a deal for the supply of four Scorpene type submarines to Brazil, and is helping the Brazilian Navy to design and build the non-nuclear parts of a nuclear powered submarine. The Brazilian submarine deal, including construction of a shipyard and naval base with the local joint venture partner Oderbrecht, is worth 6.7 billion euros, of which four billion goes to DCNS.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-navy/73691-dcns-wins-sub-contract-pakistan.html#ixzz28AdKCfTJ

 

[Alphacharlie]

And you are also wrong the both Agosta 70 were upgraded according to many Internet sources !

http://forum.*********************/index.php?showtopic=90739

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-navy/73691-dcns-wins-sub-contract-pakistan.html


DCNS Wins Sub Contract With Pakistan


France – French naval company DCNS won a contract this summer its supply two Subtics combat management systems for Pakistan's Agosta 70 diesel-electric submarine fleet, industry executives said.

DCNS signed in June a contract for modernization of Agosta 70 boats, described as "very old subs," for an Asian country, Alain Cursat, DCNS marketing manager for submarine combat systems, told journalists. Cursat declined to identify the country. But other industry sources said Pakistan was the customer. One industry executive said the prospect of selling new submarines to Pakistan had gone cold as the Navy was modernizing its existing Agosta fleet, while a second executive said Pakistan was the only operator of the Agosta boat in the region.

Pakistan bought the Agosta diesel-electric submarine, built by DCNS, in the mid 1990s and had been looking to add to its fleet with more modern boats.

DCNS had pitched the Marlin, a submarine derived from the Scorpene boat co-developed with Spain, but the Pakistan Navy favored the rival U214 boat from German archrival Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW). The Pakistan Navy has not signed with HDW.

DCNS is expecting other contract wins for the Subtics system, notably among the fleet of U209 boats operated by South American navies, as operators look to implement a midlife upgrade of their conventional (SSK) submarines, Cursat said.

DCNS expects to capture about 10 more modernization contracts for its Subtics system over the next 10 years, he said.

A sale to Pakistan of new submarine technology is a sensitive issue as DCNS sold six Scorpene submarines to India for $3.9 billion in 2005. The boats are being built locally by Mazagon Docks but the program has fallen behind because of technical problems.

Subtics stands for submarine tactical integrated combat system. The system, which integrates sensors and weapons, can be retrofitted on boats of different manufacture, including Russian build, Cursat said.

DCNS last year signed a deal for the supply of four Scorpene type submarines to Brazil, and is helping the Brazilian Navy to design and build the non-nuclear parts of a nuclear powered submarine. The Brazilian submarine deal, including construction of a shipyard and naval base with the local joint venture partner Oderbrecht, is worth 6.7 billion euros, of which four billion goes to DCNS.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-navy/73691-dcns-wins-sub-contract-pakistan.html#ixzz28AdKCfTJ

Subtics or SUBTICS integrated combat system is FCS on a Sub. Its like upgrading HUD on a Jet.
Agosta 70s are tin cans no wonder your Navy is not adding AIP nor Anechoic tiles are being spoken off. I would never like to endandger my crew in a out dated platform.

Hope they are used as Training vessels.

 

[Inception-06]

Subtics or SUBTICS integrated combat system is FCS on a Sub. Its like upgrading HUD on a Jet.
Agosta 70s are tin cans no wonder your Navy is not adding AIP nor Anechoic tiles are being spoken off. I would never like to endandger my crew in a out dated platform.

Hope they are used as Training vessels.

The Pakistan Navy knows best about their two Agosta 70 Submarines, I think its logical the Pakistan Navy had also decided to overhaul the hole of the submarine Agosta 70 if needed. You are underestimate the capacity of the Agosta 70 submarine when it will operating with whole Fleet of the Pakistan Navy.

DCNS SUBTICS (Submarine Tactical Integrated Combat System) - YouTube

 

[ajtr]

FACTUALLY Incorrect and Hyperbola Bullshit. Poor Journalism

1. Scorpene will be delivered starting 2015 one every 6 months, all 6 will be delivered in 3 years.

in indian shipyard case that too a PSU i must say you are over estimate their capabilities by giving timeline and expecting them to abide by the schedule.

 

[ajtr]

Many a foreign managers who works with indians say that indians waste more time in meetings and tongue lashing then doing actual work on the ground.

 

[Nishan_101]

I am sure there is some JV with China on SSBN, SSKs and hopefully smaller SSKs like Andrasta which they are not letting us know. In the launching time of PNS HAMZA, I have viewed an interview of PN officers talking about the submarine and its capability in which they pointed out something very interesting which is that:

"many Navies in the world are now considering submarines as their only war machines as they are capable for doing any mission like of Destroyers, Frigates, corvettes and even mine hunters and mine layers and even if you remember about the German tanker submarine and proposed air craft deployment submarines too."

So PN is also looking into to build future Naval fleet based on Submarines. I wish it would be like:
Just a proposition.
7 SSBNs
21 SSKs with AIP
21 SSKs like Andrasta
15-21 700 Ton FAC with multi mission capability.
7 N-Powered LPDs